Brutish Pastors Scatter Sheep - Page 6

edjen01 · #51 05-07-2009, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaxfam6

I have somewhat to say to that. A mature adult Christian can only come about by some mature adult teaching. I know there are some that will never mature, just like in the natural, but most general a child grows up to be exactly what the parent teaches it to become. If the pastor wants mature 'saints' that will support and and work toward the vision the pastor needs to train them that way. If he is carnal and bickers about everything that is exactly what they will do. There is an old saying about monkey see monkey do. I have seen many churches where what you are talking about takes place but when you watch the pastor you can usually find the reason.
I know it is not the case in all instances but for the most part.

teaching does not equal learning....i don't believe a believers maturaty is tied directly to the pastors...or pastors teachings.

"train them that way"....are we talking about dogs, seals, monkeys, or people? not sure where in the book that pastors are called trainers.

gloryseeker · #52 05-07-2009, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edjen01

teaching does not equal learning....i don't believe a believers maturaty is tied directly to the pastors...or pastors teachings.

"train them that way"....are we talking about dogs, seals, monkeys, or people? not sure where in the book that pastors are called trainers.

Well you would have to eliminate Ephesians 4 to uphold this position...however, you said "directly tied" so I am assuming you are eluding to the receivers decision to apply what is taught which I would agree with. However, what has been deemed as the "five-fold" has been given to the Body for maturity therefore the maturity has a direct connection with the "five-fold"

gloryseeker · #53 05-07-2009, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaxfam6

I have somewhat to say to that. A mature adult Christian can only come about by some mature adult teaching. I know there are some that will never mature, just like in the natural, but most general a child grows up to be exactly what the parent teaches it to become. If the pastor wants mature 'saints' that will support and and work toward the vision the pastor needs to train them that way. If he is carnal and bickers about everything that is exactly what they will do. There is an old saying about monkey see monkey do. I have seen many churches where what you are talking about takes place but when you watch the pastor you can usually find the reason.
I know it is not the case in all instances but for the most part.

I agree with that, but I think what happens is that most Pastors (even the God called ones) don't know how to "train." They know how to preach a message, but somehow lose sight of the fact that they have the ability to "train" while they are preaching and there is a breakdown in the process along the way.

edjen01 · #54 05-07-2009, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gloryseeker

Well you would have to eliminate Ephesians 4 to uphold this position...however, you said "directly tied" so I am assuming you are eluding to the receivers decision to apply what is taught which I would agree with. However, what has been deemed as the "five-fold" has been given to the Body for maturity therefore the maturity has a direct connection with the "five-fold"

as an educator i have learned that good teaching does not equal good learning. a mature pastor does not produce mature believers....believers who study, learn, and continue to grow...grow into maturity. if this were not true then believers who had inmature pastors could not grow in maturity...no matter what they did.

i do believe in the work of the ministry....but I do not believe that a believers maturity is regulated by what thier pastor chooses to be or not be.

jaxfam6 · #55 05-07-2009, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edjen01

teaching does not equal learning....i don't believe a believers maturaty is tied directly to the pastors...or pastors teachings.

"train them that way"....are we talking about dogs, seals, monkeys, or people? not sure where in the book that pastors are called trainers.

"Train up a child..." that is biblical

I agree that not all persons are going to take everything taught to them but I think the reasoning stands pat for most. You want someone to learn something you teach them and train them.

jaxfam6 · #56 05-07-2009, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gloryseeker

I agree with that, but I think what happens is that most Pastors (even the God called ones) don't know how to "train." They know how to preach a message, but somehow lose sight of the fact that they have the ability to "train" while they are preaching and there is a breakdown in the process along the way.

that could be true.

jaxfam6 · #57 05-07-2009, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edjen01

as an educator i have learned that good teaching does not equal good learning. a mature pastor does not produce mature believers....believers who study, learn, and continue to grow...grow into maturity. if this were not true then believers who had inmature pastors could not grow in maturity...no matter what they did.

i do believe in the work of the ministry....but I do not believe that a believers maturity is regulated by what thier pastor chooses to be or not be.

Then as an educator you should also know that it works both ways. A child can not teach itself otherwise we would not need people like yourself. I would say there should not have to be a direct correlation between a teachers maturity and the maturity of the student but to many times I have seen it. This spiritual birthing is very much like natural. In the natural traits are passed on. Well in the spiritual traits get passed on also. Should my maturity level be based on what my pastor's maturity level is? No, but often times it is. Thankfully I have had mature teachers. Just like abuse. In a family where the father abuses his wife and kids, to often the kids abuse their wives and kids when they have them. Should they? No but as we all know to often they do.

JamDat · #58 05-07-2009, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LadyRev

These scriptures should be a warning to all those who try to "lord over" God's heritage and thus end up destroying and/or scattering sheep.

The attitude of "if they don't like it, they can leave" is rampant these days. It should not be found among pastors.

Now that'll preach. You go LadyRev!

gloryseeker · #59 05-07-2009, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaxfam6

Then as an educator you should also know that it works both ways. A child can not teach itself otherwise we would not need people like yourself. I would say there should not have to be a direct correlation between a teachers maturity and the maturity of the student but to many times I have seen it. This spiritual birthing is very much like natural. In the natural traits are passed on. Well in the spiritual traits get passed on also. Should my maturity level be based on what my pastor's maturity level is? No, but often times it is. Thankfully I have had mature teachers. Just like abuse. In a family where the father abuses his wife and kids, to often the kids abuse their wives and kids when they have them. Should they? No but as we all know to often they do.

Well said

EA · #60 05-07-2009, 10:23 PM

This thread has been good, but I will say many of you will never know the absolute hurt that can be caused by careless words spoken by parishioners.

I find it horribly sad that parsihioners can openly defy, castigate and tear down pastors without thinking twice, but if a pastor issues any type of correction he or she is considered "brutish."

The spirit of Jezebel openly defies, and seeks to destroy the man of God at every opportunity. I think this happens because some people transfer all of their hurts and anger toward God on the man of God.

I have seen my kids and wife absolutely crushed by the hateful words of careless, mean-spirited saints. This, after my kids and wife have went without to build a church those same folks can come to and criticize. But, on the other hand, I have seen other saints defend my family against idiots.

Most people are kind and respectful. It's just the folks that live to breed contention that can make life truly miserable for a pastor.

AFF is great about pointing our the imperfections of pastors, while demanding they be perfect in every way. Truth is, none of us are perfect, and pastors will make mistakes. Hopefully, those pastors will receive the same measure of mercy the saints have come to expect.

I think it's very sad when a church devolves into a war between pulpit and pew. Leaves me wondering why the doors even stay open.

God is not pleased.