Do you believe the innocent party in a situation

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

[B]However, I DO agree that God holds us accountable for our actions towards others, and that includes offending them.

Especially if we do it on purpose.

This would be the point - a continuous pattern of doing these offenses on purpose. That is what I believe the "defrauding" in I Cor 7 is speaking of.

Because of the framing of this thread, I think we're disagreeing on a topic we're more likely to agree on.

I agree that is probably the case.

That is where I can't agree. Adultery is a heaven-or-hell issue. Black and white, no argument, absolutely no doubt. Defrauding a spouse? Not so black and white, because motivations matter, and you can't possibly know all the ins and outs of the relationship.

Again, I believe this is where the conversation is going awry. I believe that the idea of defrauding and putting a stumblingblock in front of your spouse/brother/sister is being taken as a universal problem for all sin. I think we already did agree that it is NOT so. The scriptures are only addressing those that would engage in such conduct and that is the conduct, at least, I have been discussing.

For that matter, since you call defrauding a sin, then I suppose it is equally possible that the husband caused the defrauding, therefore HE is really responsible with his brutish behavior for his wife's sin of defrauding.

You are going off point.

Your conditional statement doesn't fly. I agree with you on most of what you're saying, but not all of it. I think you're trying to make something sinful that usually isn't. It CAN be, if a woman is deliberately offending or hurting her husband by denying him sex. But if she's just tired from working all day or taking care of a passel of children, then maybe he should do the dishes, put his wife in a bubble bath, and put the kids to bed. And not be angry if that doesn't immediately lead to fireworks. She's not sinning for being tired, for Pete's sake. Should she try to accommodate him anyway, even when she doesn't feel like it? Sure!!!!

Again, the bold is the point that I have been trying to address. We got tangled up, somehow, in not being clear that we are speaking that it can be a sin. It must be as I Cor 7 tells them not to defraud or temptation will come. That means that if temptation came and I was party to the defrauding, I am handing my husband a temptation or a struggle to be tempted. I have sinned in that aspect. We can't say, "Am I my brother's keeper?, much like Cain.

Men have different drives, so if a woman only has sex when she wants it, he is sure to be dissatisfied. But does that mean she's sinning if she goes to sleep instead? See, that's where we don't agree. Even if her neglect is a pattern, unless she's doing it with knowledge, with the intent to harm or hurt, then I don't see how she can be held responsible by God for his offense. E.g., it isn't a sin to be ignorant. Ignorance can be educated, but the state itself isn't sinful.

Again, the scripture, IMO, bears out that it is deliberate and knowing. If the women you reference above is falling into that pattern, unknowingly, then she is not reading her Bible - plain as rain.

I Corinthians 10:13 was provided. And it doesn't contradict any other scripture that has been posted. Basically, ANY temptation is common, and God will not allow us to be tempted above that we are able, AND He will, with the temptation, make a way of escape.

But don't overlook that the wording says "bear it" and "make a way of escape". That means the temptation has us, but He will bring us out.

That tells me that a wife can be responsible for her husband's temptation (and vice versa), but she cannot be responsible for his sin, if that's what he chooses. It isn't possible, because God didn't allow the man to be tempted above that he was able, AND there was a way of escape.

This is where we differ. If I am responsible for my husband being tempted, then I am also responsible if he falls into sin. Please note Malachi 2:8 But ye are departed out of the way;ye have caused many to stumble..."

Stumble goes on to be defined as:cause to faint or fall, be decayed, cause to fail, cause or make to fall down, overthrow, utterly be weak.

Again, that does NOT mean that my husband is NOT solely responsible for his sin. He will answer for it and I will answer for my part - BOTH are wrong.

The primary meaning of tempt in I Corinthians 7:5 is "test." So, what you're basically saying is that if a wife puts her husband in the position to be tested, she has sinned. Is that correct?

I had pointed out Col 3:21 "Fathers, provoke not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged/spiritless."

My question would be - is the father culpable if he discourages his son so much that he falls into sin or views God in the same way and turns away from the faith?

We don't seem to have a problem putting the blame on strict standards of dress or Conservative teaching driving people away from God.