Your kidding right, Baptism and Pouring aren't even comparable, baptism means burial period, the actual Greek word was used to describe a sinking ship, not a ship being deluged by rain or waves, but ship going under the water for good.
Pastor Keith, the word "baptizo" (Gk.) is a robust word. While yes, it is used to describe the process of submerging something it also means:
1) to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
2) to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean
with water, to wash one's self, bathe
3) to overwhelm
For example the term "baptizo" is used in relation to pouring water over one's hands:
Luke 11:38
And when the Pharisee saw it, he marvelled that he had not first washed (baptizo) before dinner.
Is one "washed" (baptizo) if only water is allowed to run on their hands? Apparently so.
It is also very important to understand Christ's baptism to understand baptism itself. You see John was of the line of Aaron:
Luke 1:5-13
5THERE was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
7And they had no child, because that Elisabeth was barren, and they both were now well stricken in years.
8And it came to pass, that while he executed the priest's office before God in the order of his course,
9According to the custom of the priest's office, his lot was to burn incense when he went into the temple of the Lord.
10And the whole multitude of the people were praying without at the time of incense.
11And there appeared unto him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense.
12And when Zacharias saw him, he was troubled, and fear fell upon him.
13But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.
You see, John the Baptist was born into a priestly family and was thus in line for priesthood. However, he rejected the established Temple system and baptized (washed) converts in the wilderness. What were these "washings" (baptismos, Gk., ref Heb 9:10) conducted by John? The Law describes them,
Numbers 19:17-22
{19:17} And for an unclean [person] they shall take of the
ashes of the burnt heifer of purification for sin, and running
water shall be put thereto in a vessel: {19:18} And a clean
person shall take hyssop, and dip [it] in the water, and
sprinkle [it] upon the tent, and upon all the vessels, and
upon the persons that were there, and upon him that touched
a bone, or one slain, or one dead, or a grave: {19:19} And
the clean [person] shall sprinkle upon the unclean on the
third day, and on the seventh day: and on the seventh day he
shall purify himself, and wash his clothes, and bathe himself
in water, and shall be clean at even. {19:20} But the man
that shall be unclean, and shall not purify himself, that soul
shall be cut off from among the congregation, because he
hath defiled the sanctuary of the LORD: the water of
separation hath not been sprinkled upon him; he [is]
unclean. {19:21} And it shall be a perpetual statute unto
them, that he that sprinkleth the water of separation shall
wash his clothes; and he that toucheth the water of
separation shall be unclean until even. {19:22} And
whatsoever the unclean [person] toucheth shall be unclean;
and the soul that toucheth [it] shall be unclean until even.
Then comes Jesus to be baptized of John. It's important to note what Jesus says,
Matthew 3:13-17
{3:13} Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto
John, to be baptized of him. {3:14} But John forbad him,
saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou
to me? {3:15} And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer [it
to be so] now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all
righteousness. Then he suffered him. {3:16} And Jesus,
when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the
water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he
saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting
upon him: {3:17} And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This
is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
What did Jesus mean by, "for thus it become us to fulfil all righteousness"? Nowhere in the Law does it demand a person to be completely submerged. However, we do read something very interesting. Priests where consecrated at 30 years of age (Numbers 4:23). Here's how they were consecrated...
Numbers 8:5-7
{8:5} And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, {8:6}
Take the Levites from among the children of Israel, and
cleanse them. {8:7} And thus shalt thou do unto them, to
cleanse them: Sprinkle water of purifying upon them, and
let them shave all their flesh, and let them wash their
clothes, and [so] make themselves clean.
The Old Testament custom in regards to consecrating the priests was to sprinkle the “water of purifying” upon them as they stood in the basin of the tabernacle or in running natural water. Jesus, preparing for his priestly duties as our great high priest, was “fulfilling all righteousness” by seeking this consecration for service from John the Baptist who was essentially a righteous priest of the line of Aaron. Seeing that Jesus did this at 30 years of age (Luke 3:23) we see an additional correlation to this custom of preparation for priesthood. At any rate, if this is so, Jesus fulfilled the Law perfectly as our high priest by standing in water and allowing John to sprinkle “water of purifying” upon him. This would have effectively transfered the office of priesthood from the line of Aaron to Christ himself. Many would say that the reference to Jesus coming, “up straightway out of the water”, requires that Jesus was completely immersed. However, it can also be understood as Jesus walking out of the river in which he stood as John baptized him with the sprinkling or pouring of water.
Also pay close attention to what Paul writes...
Romans 6:4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
When Paul writes the word "buried" we Westerners from the 21st Century instantly think of being submerged or put under dirt. But lets note... Christ was NEVER submerged or put under dirt. In fact we read...
John 19:40
Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury.
What was the burial custom of the Jews? They took the body and "washed" (baptizo) it by pouring water over the body. (In fact, it was considered sacrilegious to dunk or submerge the dead in water.) They then rubbed the body down with oil and wrapped it with fragrant spices. Lastly they placed it in a tomb to decompose for a year as they mourned. After their time of mourning they returned for the body and placed the bones in an ossuary. Therefore when Paul spoke of our burial being likened unto Christs... he's implying that we had clean water poured over us.
Most teach that the blood is applied at baptism. If this is true take heed to what Peter wrote...
I Peter 1:2
{1:2} Elect according to the foreknowledge of
God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto
obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace
unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Lastly, let's consider Ezekiel's prophecy of Pentecost (both water baptism and Holy Ghost infilling are described)....
Ezekiel 36:25-27
{36:25} Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye
shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your
idols, will I cleanse you. {36:26} A new heart also will I
give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will
take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give
you an heart of flesh. {36:27} And I will put my spirit
within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye
shall keep my judgments, and do [them.]
Now consider Pentecost itself....
Acts 2:37-41
{2:37} Now when they heard [this,] they were pricked in
their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the
apostles, Men [and] brethren, what shall we do? {2:38}
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every
one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of
sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. {2:39}
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all
that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall
call. {2:40} And with many other words did he testify and
exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward
generation.
{2:41} Then they that gladly received his word were
baptized: and the same day there were added [unto them]
about three thousand souls.
Where did Peter baptize three thousand souls in Jerusalem??? Some claim the "mikveh" pools. But this is problematic. First, these pools weren't near the quarter of Jerusalem where Peter preached; they were in vicinity of the Temple. Second, the mikveh pools were under control of the Jewish authorities and heavily supervised by the Romans. Had Peter marched 3,000 people to the Temple to dunk people in the mikveh pools in the name of Jesus there would have been absolute chaos. The Jewish authorities wouldn't have allowed anything of that nature to be done in the name of Jesus in vicinity of the Temple. They would have called on the Romans to arrest the Christians and there would have been riots. If the prophesy is regarded as being factual in it's description of Pentecost, we realize that there would have been plenty of water to sprinkle or pour on individuals.
It is also important to note that the "baptism" of the Holy Ghost is the result of God "pouring" out His Spirit...
Acts 2:
16But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
The "pouring" out of God's Spirit is regarded as the "baptism" of the Holy Ghost! God pours the Holy Ghost baptism.
Not only do I believe that sprinkling or pouring is valid, I believe that if you search the Scriptures and study the use of water throughout the Scriptures in regards to cleansing, especially the Old Testament, you'll see sprinkling and pouring to be a common and abundant practice according to the Law.
I know this isn't in line with Pentecostal TRADITION, but I believe it's true with all my heart.
It was mentioned that the Tabernacle plan features a shadow of baptism. It was the Brazen Laver. Here water was poured over the priests as they entered into the Sanctuary to minister before the Lord. If the Brazen Laver where the priests were purified by the pouring of water is a shadow of baptism...so then is pouring.
Some conservative Apostolics would believe you did not receive the REAL Holy Ghost if it happened before you were "properly" baptized because you were still filthy and unwashed from your sin and your sin had not been remitted/forgiven.
That wasn't the point. The point is that Jesus administered the thief's forgiveness prior to the thief's death, i.e., under the Law. Christ offered forgiveness and then offered the ultimate sacrifice for that atonement. That's the role of High Priest.
The thief didn't:
-Believe in Christ's death, burial, and resurrection (because Christ hadn't risen yet).
-The thief wasn't infilled with the Holy Ghost.
Essentially... the thief wasn't a Christian, he was a repentant Jew under the Law.
However, I'll digress for a moment. In a sense the thief WAS baptized. You see the entire Jewish nation was baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea (1 Corinthians 10:2). *Please note: they weren't submerged* They walked through the Red Sea on dry ground. However, there's little doubt that there was some serious mist coming from those walls of water.
Were the priests immersed/dipped/buried in the laver as part of their daily cleansing?
The priests regularly cleansed before entering the Tabernacle.
"Thou shaft also make a laver of brass and his foot also of brass, to wash withal, and thou shall put it between the tabernacle and the congregation and the altar, and thou shalt put water therein. For Aaron and his sons shall wash their hands and their feet thereat. When they go into the tabernacle of the congregation, they shall wash with water that they die not, or when they come near to the altar to minister, to burn offering unto the Lord" (Exodus 30:18-20)
I think Howard Goss believed in the message as he understood it, now I don't believe that it what the Bible teaches. But I think he was sincere.
I misunderstands Baptism, the water itself doesn't save, that is Baptismal regeneration, but faith in the operation of God, or what God does in response to Faith. Remit and break the power or bondage of the body of sins.
Howard Goss said Baptists would be in the Bride. He didn't believe the message.
Howard Goss said Baptists would be in the Bride. He didn't believe the message.
Howard Goss simply didn't believe the message with the Fundamentalism with which you believe it. Howard Goss left room for God to be God and judge the heart of a Christian. If a person was baptized with the wrong wording the issue isn't the wording... it's the disposition of their heart. They were seeking to be obedient to what they believed to be the will of Jesus. Were they mistaken? Yes. They God the wording wrong. However, God is a God who judges the heart... not the Sacrament.
Howard Goss simply didn't believe the message with the Fundamentalism with which you believe it. Howard Goss left room for God to be God and judge the heart of a Christian. If a person was baptized with the wrong wording the issue isn't the wording... it's the disposition of their heart. They were seeking to be obedient to what they believed to be the will of Jesus. Were they mistaken? Yes. They God the wording wrong. However, God is a God who judges the heart... not the Sacrament.
From a guy who defends Catholic sprinkling two peas in a pod.
Howard Goss said Baptists would be in the Bride. He didn't believe the message.
Is your heaven a lonely place? I thought the JW's put limits on Heaven with their 144,000 teaching but your seems to hold about 144. Wonder why it's taking so long to prepare a place for so few people?
__________________
"Beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow." ~Aesop
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