I'm OUT!!! I've been sitting on my behind all day. I have been very unproductive today. My husband needs my help with the garage, and I'm sitting here typing, watching him sweat, and ignoring his questions. LOL!!!!
Quoted by IGL Today, You are the one that started the thread with the word "standards' in the line. You have talked about life standards, principles, and people getting bitter over sleeve lengths and sports. So, I suspect you mean all of these.
I started this thread due to the many threads already started with the
"word" standards in the line. Your thread is above.
I was "quoting" someone else's words on the sleeve lengths and sports.
quoted by RandyWayne:
People already have enough trials in life to have someone else had "sleeve length" or some rule involving sports made into a heaven or hell issue.
I'm OUT!!! I've been sitting on my behind all day. I have been very unproductive today. My husband needs my help with the garage, and I'm sitting here typing, watching him sweat, and ignoring his questions. LOL!!!!
When you're done, I could use some help in my garage.
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
I started this thread due to the many threads already started with the
"word" standards in the line. Your thread is above.
I was "quoting" someone else's words on the sleeve lengths and sports.
So what is your point? I decided to take a poll because all the threads on the issue made me think it might be interesting. However, I simply asked for people's experience and took a poll. I didn't accuse anyone of fussing or suchlike.
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Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the people doing it. ~Chinese Proverb
When I was young and clever, I wanted to change the world. Now that I am older and wiser, I strive to change myself. ~
Some of your statements in your last two posts concern me. You say you
believe that the Bible alone is sufficient. The Word of God is very important
but without the SPIRIT to lead and guide, we're sadly lacking.
I don't know a lot about you but guess you to be a fairly young man, maybe
a couple or so children, perhaps pre-teen ages. Just guessing!
And although I was born just prior to WWII, my parents were the children of
those who came out of the Great Depression, and we were the children whose
parents went through the second world war. Yes, we were the children who
didn't question everything and everybody. Tom Brokaw wrote his book, "The
Greatest Generation", the one my parents were from. And they call us, their
children, "The Silent Generation". We were the children who were told to list-
en and learn. And listen and learn we did. We were fed the Word of God un-
til we could feed ourselves. The Word of God IS quick and powerful and
sharper than any two-edged sword even to the dividing of soul and spirit.
But, Bro. Aquila, I wasn't just a part of that or those generations, I've been
here ever since and am still very much alive! in Christ, that is!
I could go through all the various arguments, etc.,etc as to why this and
why that. But I would invite you to come back here when you are almost
70 yrs. (I will be in Sept 09) and after you have been married 50 yrs. (will
be July 11,09) and after you have raised your children and they have been
married for years and have children and are raising your grandchildren.
Brother, all I can say is you had better have the Spirit of Truth, the HOLY
GHOST, to lead you and guide you. Without the Spirit of Christ leading, we
would be hopeless. The Bible is the Guidebook. The Spirit is The GUIDE!
I mean no offense, Bro. Aquila! I just know that until we have been some-
where, we will not be a reliable source to tell someone else how to get
there. ALL I know is somehow by HIS GREAT mercy and grace we've come
this far by faith.
We've come this far by faith,
Leaning on the LORD.
Trusting completely in His Word,
He's never failed us yet.....
We've come this far by faith
Blessings abundantly,
Falla39
Sis. Falla,
Your post was very warm and I enjoyed reading it. However, I want to share my thoughts. As I read your post these things rolled around in my heart and mind.
Jesus said that man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. That’s God’s Word. The Bible is complete and all sufficient within itself to lead and guide us as individuals, and humanity as a whole. At one point Jesus was speaking to the disciples, (not us) and said that he would send another comforter who would lead and guide us into all truth. Indeed, that comforter was poured out at Pentecost. And indeed the Holy Ghost led and guided the Apostles into all truth. That truth was recorded in Scripture and here we find the Word of God, all truth. We cannot base our spirituality on arbitrary emotional feelings that we perceive are from the Spirit. That’s the problem with Pentecost. Everyone is following what they “feel” to be right based on what they “feel” is being told to them by the Spirit… but no one is truly holding firm to the Word of God and the Word of God ALONE. Frankly, it doesn’t matter if the Spirit is speaking to me or not… I have the mind of God revealed in His Word. When I’m down and unable to hear from God, I have His Word. The Bible contains the truths that the Apostles were led into by the Holy Ghost.
Here’s a short story. I attended an ultra conservative church where arbitrary spirituality was common. We valued standards. Our Pastor felt “the Spirit lead” him to command all men to wear white shirts to service. No brother in a colored shirt was regarded as respecting his authority. In addition he felt the “Spirit lead” him to forbid motorcycles. Eventually he felt the “Spirit lead” him to pry into intimate areas between husband and wife where he governed what he felt was decent behavior regardless of the feelings of the couples involved. He continued on and felt the “Spirit lead” him to command that we always clear any major purchase, vacation, or job changes through him. He generally had a sweet spirit about it all so we were easily brought under his complete control. Some brothers were praying and felt the “Spirit lead” them to command their wives to wear a second covering… I was one of them. I remember having it out with my wife for roughly two weeks concerning what I was convinced the Lord had told me. She was to wear a doily, snood, or something on her head… especially when on the platform, or I would “guider her” in the ways of the Lord on the way home. One day my wife broke down crying. She was turned down from a management position in the company she works for because she didn’t represent the “image”of the company. My wife is only 31 and was looking like a grandmother with the bunned hair, nearly Amish length dresses, etc. She felt so terrible about herself she slid into a depression. I began to search the Scriptures for all these “standards” that we firmly believed in. My goal was to sit down and pray with my wife with the Bible in hand to help her see the ways of God and to lift her spirit in just knowing that she was pleasing Heaven. Well… to my dismay I found NOTHING in the Bible regarding over half of our standards. In fact I found the opposite, for example I Paul’s day being clean shaven was a Roman custom and was a strong indicator of effeminate disposition I males. The word “effeminate” in the Greek has the connotation of being “soft”, specifically in reference to the face. So while my Pastor was dangling us over Hell for any hint of facial hair, the Scripture had no such standard. If in fact there was a standard it would be the exact opposite of what my Pastor was preaching. Modesty is something the Bible mentions over and over. However, it doesn’t set into stone styles in regards to modesty. Biblically speaking, if pants are immodest on women… they are immodest on men also. Immodest is immodest. To dangle a woman over Hell over a pair of pants is simply unbiblical. In fact, I’ve seen pant suits on women in my office that were far more modest and conservative than some of the tighter fair in dresses commonly seen in mainstream UPCI churches. Yes, pants can be immodest… but so can skirts. The issue isn’t the style worn, it’s the intent and revealing nature of the specific article worn. I don’t mind a pastor saying, “I believe that skirts are more modest than pants, so as a policy we have a platform standard and church standard encouraging all women to wear skirts and dresses.” But to tell a woman, “Sister, you’ll bust Hell wide open if you dawn a pair of pants!” That’s not only unbiblical… it’s a lie.
It’s this subjective, arbitrary, emotionally driven aspect of Pentecostalism that is its weakness and source of division… because it focuses on what the individual “feels” like the Lord has personally told them… NOT on the Word of God and what it explicitly does say. I’ve seen our youth loose Bible debates with Baptists who know the Bible better than they do… but our youth know the standards like the back of their hand. That’s a problem.
So, one can base their walk on what they “think” or what they “feel” God is telling them… however, I’ll lean entirely on the Word. If it’s in the Bible, it’s book. If it’s not in the Bible it’s not book. And let me tell you… most of our standards that we use to dangle people over Hell are not book.
I don’t mind a pastor saying, “I believe that skirts are more modest than pants, so as a policy we have a platform standard and church standard encouraging all women to wear skirts and dresses.” But to tell a woman, “Sister, you’ll bust Hell wide open if you dawn a pair of pants!” That’s not only unbiblical… it’s a lie.
It’s this subjective, arbitrary, emotionally driven aspect of Pentecostalism that is its weakness and source of division… because it focuses on what the individual “feels” like the Lord has personally told them… NOT on the Word of God and what it explicitly does say. I’ve seen our youth loose Bible debates with Baptists who know the Bible better than they do… but our youth know the standards like the back of their hand. That’s a problem.
Yes, Aquila. It's a lie. That's a strong statement. I don't know that I've ever made it myself until now. But it hits the nail on the head.
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Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the people doing it. ~Chinese Proverb
When I was young and clever, I wanted to change the world. Now that I am older and wiser, I strive to change myself. ~
As Aquila said, saying that a woman will go to hell for wearing pants is a lie. Saying you feel skirts are a better expression of Deut 22:5 and a better way to live is not a lie. One is a belief, the other is a condemnation and a judgment of other people's lives. Whenever people start veering from personal opinion and godly living into this lie is when I and others like me get angry. Take care where you reside.
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Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt the people doing it. ~Chinese Proverb
When I was young and clever, I wanted to change the world. Now that I am older and wiser, I strive to change myself. ~
Quoted by IGL Today, You are the one that started the thread with the word "standards' in the line. You have talked about life standards, principles, and people getting bitter over sleeve lengths and sports. So, I suspect you mean all of these.
I think you're trivializing the long term effect of some of our standards. Once one begins to really read and study the Scriptures they will discover that many of our standards aren't found in Scripture... they are opinions of a previous generation of Pentecostals. They are traditions of men. At that point I became upset... not because I discovered that sleeve length didn't matter... but because the "man of God" told me that the Bible says that I'd go to Hell if I wore short sleeves. Essentially... he lied to me. When one has trusted the pulpit with their most intimate decisions and difficult times, some of their worse sins, and sacrificed time finances, and freedoms (like taking that job offered out of town that would have landed 6 figures)... only to discover that the pulpit isn't teaching actual Bible but mere opinions of a pastor or a previous generation of pastors... that hurts. That hurt leaves one feeling lied to and betrayed. I trusted him to teach me the Bible... but he dangled me and my family over Hell regarding beards, baseball games, sleeves, pants, and wedding bands. Now I find out that the Bible doesn't condemn any of these things. I can't trust him now. He betrayed a sacred trust to teach Scripture by teaching me TRADITIONS of men. To this day I view 90% of anything a preacher tells me with suspicion. If I hear a preacher condemn something or preach about something, I will personally go look it up and cross reference commentaries to make sure he isn't giving me HIS opinion instead of the Word of God.
Sadly, my wife's faith was crushed. She loves the Lord... but she's terrified of going to any church. She's afraid of being manipulated and emotionally tormented by men who will try to terrify her about things that aren't issues at all. Sadly I was one of those men who "lectured her" and "scolded" her like her dad instead of loving her like a husband over sleeve length and the second head coverings I "felt" like the Lord was commanding us to believe in. She lost faith in me as a spiritual leader ... because I was taught to base my faith on standards and go by my feelings. As a result I went as conservative as I could with all the traditions I learned. I thought it was all in the Word of God... but it was just the opinion of a man. It's entirely my fault that I allowed myself to be manipulted by such an abusive pulpit... but they should share some of the blame here because they failed to teach the Word and instead drilled opinion and tradition into us. That's why I've got some bitterness.
I faithfully served an ultra conservative church for nearly 12 years and because I couldn't make a weekly morning prayer service due to my job they removed me from ministry and the Pastor's wife yelled at my wife for being in "rebellion" when all she said was, "My husband and I can't make it." My wife came home sobbing and in hysterics. She was removed from choir, ladies group ministry, choral, and the outreach team. Why??? Spiritual abuse. Legalism. Men thinking they are God and can make law from the pulpit without regard to what the Word of God truly says.
So dear Sis. Falla.... please understand. It's not sleeve length or the condemnation of baseball games that has made so many people bitter. Its the fact that we've been terrified for no reason and lied to. I will never take my son to a church where the Pastor tells him he'll go to Hell over short sleeves. NEVER. Why? It's not biblical, and to expose him to such is to expose him to spiritual abuse.
Our words and actions have effects on people. You might think it doesn't matter to dangle someone over Hell regarding sleeve length or facial hair... but when that person studies the Bible for themselves and finds out how that's not said in Scripture... they'll loose all faith in the pulpit... and sadly, some will loose faith completely.
I love ya sis. I just have to try to communicate some of my feelings on the matter, because honestly, if the Bible condemned sports, I'd never go to a ball game again. But truth be told... it doesn't. Those who says that it does are lying to us.
So what is your point? I decided to take a poll because all the threads on the issue made me think it might be interesting. However, I simply asked for people's experience and took a poll. I didn't accuse anyone of fussing or suchlike.
The "Fussin" was partly TIC because of the several threads.
But I'm through "fussin". Really don't like to "Fuss". Don't mind
discussing. Dialogue is good.
Yes, Aquila. It's a lie. That's a strong statement. I don't know that I've ever made it myself until now. But it hits the nail on the head.
I will say this and I know that won't be very popular here, but I believe it is false doctrine and, therefore also a lie, to say that speaking in tongues is not evidence of the Holy Ghost/Sprit and that we do not need it to be saved.
Why do I believe that?
Galatians 3:14 "That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."
Acts 2:33 "Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear."
Another strong point begins at the Galatians 3:1 "O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
What did Jesus say about one of the reason's he would have to be die? Not only to save us from our sins, but in order for the Comforter to come and dwell in us.
John 15:26 "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:"
John 16:7 "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you."
Romans 8:9 "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."
Romans 8:11-12 "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you."
He testifies in Acts 2:33 that what they see and what they hear is the Holy Ghost that was promised.
Galatians 3:15 "Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto."
I see many leave, and not necessarily always because of the standards, but they also leave the truth - that the Holy Ghost is evidenced by speaking in tongues or that it is salvific. That is not negotiable for me. That may be another reason that people who stay in, regardless of the standards, don't want to follow. Just my observation.
The issue of shaking people and forcing them to an altar, etc. is a whole separate matter.
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Last edited by Pressing-On; 06-18-2009 at 04:06 PM.
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