I work for the government so I’m a bit biased perhaps but here are my thoughts.
Don’t you think that churches becoming militias will only cause the government to be more suspect of various churches? I mean, if this becomes a trend in Pentecostal churches (or any network of churches), the government will have to monitor and report on their activities. I know most will think that this is strange seeing that the vast majority of churches aren’t a threat. However, all it would take is one or two off balance pastors to escalate issues to a level that could cause significant concern or pose a threat to civil stability. Think of the image this portrays. Imagine how a neighborhood of non-Pentecostals or unbelievers will view a fundamentalist church that has turned itself into an armory and essentially has a small standing militia. This may seem like a trivial issue to some… but this is how militias are born… small… idealist… and seemingly non-threatening. If more churches do this and it makes the press, what else will people think when you say, “I’m a Pentecostal.”? ....
....Very sad. But think of this… she’s a modern day martyr. That’s the price some of us will pay for being a follower of Christ. Great is her reward.
I think that as Christians we are called to obey Jesus and aspire to Christlikeness in the face of these trying times… even if it costs us our lives. Being a Christian is about far more than hair and dress codes.
I agree with this. If we keep on this course of action - we will go down in history like the folks at Masada. They were fighting against evil in the name of God and country and wound up being slaughtered. And they died in their sins.
If we go against the teachings of Christ - not only will we have to deal with standing before a very angry God at the end of the world but we might be slaughtered in this life like the folks at Ruby Ridge with nothing to show for it but a couple of paragraphs of a history lesson.
Most of this is rhetorical bro. It's not meant as being something you have to personally answer. It's just personalized for the conversations sake. I love you Brother Randy...
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyWayne
Your comparing a TV or DVD player to a family member?
No Randy, not at all. You had said...
Quote:
To protect the house, and all things in it,
I was addressing the notion of killing in order to protect "things".
Quote:
If someone has broken in and threatening my wife and I have the opportunity to use a "piece" or even find a clay pot to throw, I will. To NOT do it, or at least take any opportunity given, is cowardly.
Randy, you missed it again. It's cowardly not to obey Christ in the face of danger and possible death. When a Christian or their family is threatened that is where the rubber meets the road. God sent His Son, the man Christ Jesus to earth. We heard God speak from Heaven, "This is my beloved Son..." The man Christ Jesus was beloved of the Father as any son is beloved of their Father. Yet we see how the world turned on him like a pack of wild dogs, beat him, scourged him, tore him to shreds, and crucified him mockingly. The Father could have sent down 10,000 angels to slay those who were murdering His Son... yet while His own Son hung bleeding crying, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?", the Father turned His head and allowed the man Christ Jesus to suffer and die. Yet in Christ's last breaths we hear him pleading, "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do." Would you give your own son to provide the opportunity of salvation for a soul Randy? Your wife? We're talking about an eternal soul. Your family, if saved, will go on to their reward and you will see them again. In fact your reunion will be far more glorious than anything earth has to offer. However, this teenager strung out on dope has no hope of salvation. The story I heard about the man whose son was killed by a drunk driver. When the driver went to prison this father was bitter and enraged with God and considered waiting for the driver to get out of prison just to kill him. Yet after much prayer this father was the only one who met this young man when he was released. He took him to dinner and after some time formed a relationship with him. This father adopted this young man and took him in, adopting him as his own son. That man was a Baptist Randy. He didn't even have the Holy Ghost yet he demonstrated Christ like love. If a young man burst into your home and murdered your family... would you have the guts to be Jesus to him? Or would you choose the cowards way and cave in to your baser instincts? If you could kill in the heat of the moment... you certainly can kill decidedly afterward. I was a soldier Randy. Choosing to kill is choosing to kill. None of the Apostles used deadly force to defend themselves from the most fearsome of persecution and cruelty. Were they cowards? Christ himself healed the ear of a guard Peter tried to slay to defend Christ... was Jesus a coward Randy? Jesus exemplifies true courage in the face of death. Jesus didn't compromise his morals, his ethics, his faith when faced with certain death. Jesus didn't want to die Randy. He sweat as it were great drops of blood and pleaded that the cup be passed from him. The question is Randy... can you live for Jesus even when your worst nightmares are coming true before your very eyes? Can you be a Christian when most, even most Christians, would act just like the world? I'm not talking about cowardice Randy... I'm talking about the ultimate level of courage and faith. Can you aspire to that level of Christianity? Is your faith to stand by the commandments of the Lord so solid that you will obey him for better or for worse? Or when faced with death will you chicken out and turn to guns, horses, chariots, and the carnal weapons of this world? Who are you Randy? Who are you at the deepest level of your being? Are you... like Christ? I'm not... but I aspire to be. I pray that if faced with my worst nightmares I can be a Christian. Remember Randy, I wanted to be the gun. I'm with you... it's my wife Randy. She's 100% Christian, even though she's had her own struggles. She looked at the gun and repeated told me, "We're Christian." When I told her that I wanted to protect her she made it perfectly clear that she'd rather die than see a man blown into Hell laying in our living room. She looks at our son as a gift from God... the Lord giveth... and the Lord taketh away. She is more like Jesus than I can see myself being. But I aspire to be like Jesus. I have faults and my struggles with sin... but I want to be like Jesus in the very foundation of my character. I want to be the kind of man who could have sang tear filled praises while men burned my family alive in front of me. I can't imagine that level of faith. I can't even imagine it. But I want it. I want to be... Christian. Not as this society defines Christian from the right of a political spectrum... but CHRISTIAN as it would have been known in the first century. The kind of Christian the Apostles typified. While neither of us know how we would truly react in a situation wherein our family was in danger... can you too aspire and pray that you could be like Christ in your darkest hour? That's all I'm talking about Bro. Randy. Since I desire to be like Christ if my worst nightmares come true... I will give no place for the flesh. I don't want to blow away some sinner... so I choose not to even own a gun.
To sit back and say "I'll let Jesus protect my wife" is akin to the person on his roof during a flood who turns back on three different people trying to help by saying that "God will save me". From my wife's perspective, I'M the protection that Jesus promised.
I have news for your Randy. The notion that Jesus will protect anyone is a MYTH. Jesus never promised to protect you or me. He never promised to protect our families. In fact he said that many would suffer and die for his name's sake. That means they would suffer and die obeying him, serving him, and living for him. Jesus promised tribulation. In fact the only thing Jesus promised was that terrible things would happen to us. Then he sent us out like sheep before wolves. It is in this setting that true Christianity shines the brightest. A Christianity that says "come what may... I'm obeying Christ Jesus." That means even if the most horrendous nightmare is unfolding right before your very eyes. This is the heart of Christian faith. It's not cowardice. In fact it's a sacrifice that demands the highest level of loyalty and devotion. Not to yourself, not to your family... but to Jesus Christ. Jesus is more important than my wife Randy. I love Jesus more than I love her. I'm commanded to. I love Jesus more than I love my son. I'm commanded to. I have my orders Randy. I don't know if you were in the military Bro. Randy, but I was. There are loyalties that run so deep one cannot fathom compromising those loyalties... even when faced with the ultimate sacrifice of self or the people we love. Most haven't even seen a glimpse of this kind of love Randy. I was a Medic in the Army. There was a story I read about a Medic in Vietnam whose unit came under fire and was taking casualties. After doing what he could for the American wounded he braved enemy fire to even assist enemy soldiers. He was gunned down while trying to drag an enemy soldier out of harm's way. Bro... that's absolute selflessness. He gave his life, his relationship with his wife and children, he gave it all up to save a man who may have been shooting to take his life from him just a few moments before. That is Christianity Randy. Can you be the one reaching for a soul who is tearing your life and family apart? Could you pray for the centurion who is burning the eyes out of your children's skulls? Could you pray for the Roman gladiator who cut down your wife in the Colosseum? Randy, in the colosseums Christians were offered weapons at times... because it was noted that they wouldn't use them. The crowd would laugh and jeer as Christians ran from the gladiator's sword. And the crowd would roar while they huddled together and said their goodbyes as they were hacked to pieces one by one. Would you have grabbed a sword Randy?
Those are difficult questions I ask myself. Just put my name where your name is... I've asked it of myself too. And I pray I can do what Jesus commands if my worst nightmares come to life.
Just never promised protection. Jesus only commands that you love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you and dispitefully use you. Just as important as not committing adultery... we are not to kill. Again, using non-lethal measures is something I see no issue with. If you can subdue an attacker, escape an attacker, morally disarm an attacker, even trick an attacker to save yourself or your family... that is being as "wise as a serpent". Yet using lethal force is failing to be as harmless as a dove. I know a Christian who owns a shotgun... but he refuses to buy shells. He believes that all he has to do is loudly cock his shotgun and point it toward an attacker. I think that could escalate matters if the attacker is armed and I wouldn't do it. But that's his thing. Being in the military I know something. You don't buy, own, or even pull out a weapon unless you are indeed going to use it. When you buy settled it in your mind... you will kill with it. Why? Because if the time comes... you'll hesitate if you don't. With this in mind, as a Christian, I personally cannot own a firearm. I don't believe that Jesus will protect us. I know that terrible things happen to good people. And I know that someday the unimaginable could happen to me and my family. I only pray that I will have the Christianity it takes to obey the Lord in that dark hour if faced with it.
In long conversations with my wife she's counted the cost of being a Christian. She doesn't want me to disobey the Lord and take a life if she's faced with death. She would be praying for the young man in the midst of his brutality, praying that I would flee with our son, and praying that I not kill a man who's destiny would be an eternal Hell. Here's something to consider... is it that we don't believe in the commandments of our Lord enough to obey him in all circumstances... or is it that we don't really believe in an eternal Hell? Perhaps it's a little bit of both. Because if either of these two are truly believed in... it would so deeply affect us that we wouldn't dream of killing a man, especially a lost man.
This isn't about having faith that God will protect you and your family, because He won't. That's pie in the sky and is so heavenly minded it's no earthly good. However, this is about loving the Lord enough to be obedient to his commandments in the midst of absolute horror. Being a Christian isn't like a buffet bar where we choose some commandments to obey and disregard others. The Bible is clear...
“But God said unto me, Thou shalt not build an
house for my name, because thou hast been a man of
war, and hast shed blood” (I Chronicles 28:3).
“But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but
whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to
him the other also. . . . Love your enemies, bless them
that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and
pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute
you” (Matthew 5:39, 44).
“Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they
that take the sword shall perish with the sword” (Matthew
26:52).
“And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying,
And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do
violence to no man” (Luke 3:14).
"But that we write unto them, that they abstain
from pollutions of idols, and from fornication,
and from things strangled, and from blood."
(Acts 15:20).
“For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war
after the flesh: (For the weapons of our warfare are
not carnal)” (II Corinthians 10:3-4).
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood”
(Ephesians 6:12).
“Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he
doth not resist you” (James 5:6).
I see this as serious Christian business brother Randy. This is what we're about. In the first century Church, if a Christian didn't have enough faith to obey in the most bloody of circumstances... they were counted unworthy of the faith. We need to get that level of faithfulness back... especially as we see the day approaching.
And some people are so heavenly minded they are no earthly good.
And some people are so earthly minded they're no heavenly good.
What are your thoughts on Foxe's Book of Martyrs? Were the martyrs written about "no earthly good"?
Quote:
Didn't Jesus also say that if the goodman had known when his house was to be broken into, he would have prevented it?
All spiritual, you say? Not literal? Jesus often used the natural to explain the spiritual, applying the principle from one to the other.
But, platitudes sound so spiritual.....
You know me by now Bro. Tatum, let's look at the text...
Matthew 24:42-44
42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Jesus is saying that we are to be prepared for his coming as one would be prepared for a thief. This parable was a way of telling them to be ready for his coming. Nothing more, nothing less. But, for the sake of additional context... Remember, this is ancient Israel and it was under the Law of Moses. We in the New Testament Church are called to a higher standard of righteousness that supersedes the Law and the laws of our land.
I find it interesting that if I were ranting about hair or dress codes I'd probably have far more "Amens". However, I'm only sharing the words of Jesus. They preclude the use of deadly force. And for a Christian that should be the end of the subject... but hey... God's still working on all of us right?
I have first-hand knowledge of an Apostolic church where a pastor appointed a "security committee" with men who have concealed carry licenses and is having them carry their concealed weapons to church with them. This, evidently, in response to recent church shootings.
How do you feel about this?
Would you feel safer knowing this to be true?
Would you feel uneasy knowing this to be true?
Is this a symptom of lack of faith in God to fight our battles?
Would you attend a church where you knew this to be the case?
Would this affect you at all or is this just a minor distraction?
Comments please... please don't ask me where this church is or who the pastor is. My goal is not to start trouble for them, but rather to get some different opinions and perspectives.
I think it is a smart and prudent move. Churches just need to make sure only the most mature and level headed men are tasked to do this though. Don't need any hothead reactionaries.
I think a church is not doing it's duty if it does not take steps to protect the pastor and parishoners from the crazie of this day and age. Church doesn't need to be an amred camp but trained and observant men with concealed weapons serving as ushers or security could prevent a tragedy.
__________________ "I think some people love spiritual bondage just the way some people love physical bondage. It makes them feel secure. In the end though it is not healthy for the one who is lost over it or the one who is lives under the oppression even if by their own choice"
Titus2woman on AFF
"We did not wear uniforms. The lady workers dressed in the current fashions of the day, ...silks...satins...jewels or whatever they happened to possess. They were very smartly turned out, so that they made an impressive appearance on the streets where a large part of our work was conducted in the early years.
"It was not until long after, when former Holiness preachers had become part of us, that strict plainness of dress began to be taught.
"Although Entire Sanctification was preached at the beginning of the Movement, it was from a Wesleyan viewpoint, and had in it very little of the later Holiness Movement characteristics. Nothing was ever said about apparel, for everyone was so taken up with the Lord that mode of dress seemingly never occurred to any of us."
Quote from Ethel Goss (widow of 1st UPC Gen Supt. Howard Goss) book "The Winds of God"
I think it is a smart and prudent move. Churches just need to make sure only the most mature and level headed men are tasked to do this though. Don't need any hothead reactionaries.
I think a church is not doing it's duty if it does not take steps to protect the pastor and parishoners from the crazie of this day and age. Church doesn't need to be an amred camp but trained and observant men with concealed weapons serving as ushers or security could prevent a tragedy.
CC1,
The New Testament church faced greater dangers than we do... they didn't equip men with swords to protect themselves. They saw Christ's words as being a commandment. They had a high regard for the Word of God and sought to obey it... even if it meant enduring tragedy and/or death.
“But God said unto me, Thou shalt not build an
house for my name, because thou hast been a man of
war, and hast shed blood” (I Chronicles 28:3).
“But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but
whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to
him the other also. . . . Love your enemies, bless them
that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and
pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute
you” (Matthew 5:39, 44).
“Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they
that take the sword shall perish with the sword” (Matthew
26:52).
“And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying,
And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do
violence to no man” (Luke 3:14).
"But that we write unto them, that they abstain
from pollutions of idols, and from fornication,
and from things strangled, and from blood."
(Acts 15:20).
“For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war
after the flesh: (For the weapons of our warfare are
not carnal)” (II Corinthians 10:3-4).
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood”
(Ephesians 6:12).
“Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he
doth not resist you” (James 5:6).
I think it shows how little the modern church regards the teachings of Jesus and the true cost of being a Christian. Jesus never promised that it would be safe being a Christian, in fact he promised that it wouldn't be safe. Why doesn't this preacher begin preaching the Word of God and remind his church about the cost of being a follower of Jesus in a sinful and violent world?
"Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any
man will come after me, let him deny himself,
and take up his cross, and follow me."
(Matthew 16:24).
"Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted,
and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all
nations for my name's sake." (Matthew 24:9)
"They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time
cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he
doeth God service." (John 16:2)
In times like these we need to turn to the Word. Spelled W-O-R-D not S-W-O-R-D.
I had a thought. The world desires something to give them a false sense of protection. Something tangible that they can rely on that makes them feel safe. Even Christians resort to mumbo jumbo teachings that promise divine protection, blah, blah, blah. It's all worldly.
We need to tell people the truth... the world isn't safe. Being a follower of Jesus isn't safe. We were never promised protection. And we are called to obedient faith even when our very lives are threatened.
I fear that Christians today want a Christianity without a cost. They want discount Christianity... and too many hirelings are more than willing to sell it to them. Pastors want to rant and rave about television, hair, pants, sleeves, and makeup... but they are unwilling to dig in deep during dangerous times and tell the church what it truly means to be a follower of Jesus.
Let's get very real here. What Jesus taught in regards to how we should respond to violence and persecution just isn't popular... not even among people who say they have the Holy Ghost.
CC1, your post is just provoking a lot of thoughts, I hope you don't mind me sharing my thoughts, concerns, and questions. Love you Bro.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CC1
I think it is a smart and prudent move. Churches just need to make sure only the most mature and level headed men are tasked to do this though. Don't need any hothead reactionaries.
You know by now that I was a Medic in the Army. We had to keep close tabs on soldiers to ensure that they were mentally and emotionally fit for duty. And even with all our training it wasn't an exact science. And right now I serve as a Security Access Coordinator for a regional airport in our airport police division running CHRCs (Criminal History Records Checks) with the FBI and STAs (Security Threat Assessments) with DHS on employees and contractors who need SIDA access. Now, here's my question since it's part of my job. How does a Pastor make sure that only the most qualified, mature, and level headed men are tasked to do this? I know that Bro. Joe really appears to be balanced. But how does a pastor really know? And what are the liabilities if a pastor is mistaken? What if a man get's belligerent with a pastor and reaches in his coat pocket and Bro. Joe shoots him... only to discover that the guy was reaching for a scathing letter he had written to the pastor? What if the bullet pierces Bro. Belligerent and hits little Johnny square in the face? Or ricochets and smacks Sis. Lisa in the bottom?
I just see too much wrong with it on both a spiritual and natural level.
Quote:
I think a church is not doing it's duty if it does not take steps to protect the pastor and parishoners from the crazie of this day and age. Church doesn't need to be an amred camp but trained and observant men with concealed weapons serving as ushers or security could prevent a tragedy.
Where does it stop? Do we eventually start wanding people or have them walk through metal detectors before entering our churches? Maybe some strip searches? And if so... could I volunteer for the security team? hehehe
The New Testament church faced greater dangers than we do... they didn't equip men with swords to protect themselves. They saw Christ's words as being a commandment. They had a high regard for the Word of God and sought to obey it... even if it meant enduring tragedy and/or death.
“But God said unto me, Thou shalt not build an
house for my name, because thou hast been a man of
war, and hast shed blood” (I Chronicles 28:3).
“But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but
whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to
him the other also. . . . Love your enemies, bless them
that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and
pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute
you” (Matthew 5:39, 44).
“Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they
that take the sword shall perish with the sword” (Matthew
26:52).
“And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying,
And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do
violence to no man” (Luke 3:14).
"But that we write unto them, that they abstain
from pollutions of idols, and from fornication,
and from things strangled, and from blood."
(Acts 15:20).
“For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war
after the flesh: (For the weapons of our warfare are
not carnal)” (II Corinthians 10:3-4).
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood”
(Ephesians 6:12).
“Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he
doth not resist you” (James 5:6).
I think it shows how little the modern church regards the teachings of Jesus and the true cost of being a Christian. Jesus never promised that it would be safe being a Christian, in fact he promised that it wouldn't be safe. Why doesn't this preacher begin preaching the Word of God and remind his church about the cost of being a follower of Jesus in a sinful and violent world?
"Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any
man will come after me, let him deny himself,
and take up his cross, and follow me."
(Matthew 16:24).
"Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted,
and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all
nations for my name's sake." (Matthew 24:9)
"They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time
cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he
doeth God service." (John 16:2)
In times like these we need to turn to the Word. Spelled W-O-R-D not S-W-O-R-D.
What should have happened on Sunday, December 9, 2007, when Matthew Murray stormed into New Life Church, determined to kill as many Christians as he could? What did happen is a church security guard shot him. She stopped him from killing any more people. You think she was wrong to shoot him? You think God counts it as sin?
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
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