What should have happened on Sunday, December 9, 2007, when Matthew Murray stormed into New Life Church, determined to kill as many Christians as he could? What did happen is a church security guard shot him. She stopped him from killing any more people. You think she was wrong to shoot him? You think God counts it as sin?
Sgt York reckoned he was saving lives by taking it from those whos was doin the killin.
What should have happened on Sunday, December 9, 2007, when Matthew Murray stormed into New Life Church, determined to kill as many Christians as he could? What did happen is a church security guard shot him. She stopped him from killing any more people. You think she was wrong to shoot him? You think God counts it as sin?
I have a question.
Was the security guard a licensed peace officer?
If so, it wasn't a sin. She had delegated authority from the government to use lethal force if necessary. We might be able to argue the ethics from a Christian perspective all day long... but if she was a licensed peace officer she has not sinned.
Now from a Christian perspective... where was she when Stephen was being stoned? Can you provide at least one example of a Christian using lethal force in the New Testament? They faced more serious dangers than we do.
Sgt York reckoned he was saving lives by taking it from those whos was doin the killin.
Interestingly enough Murry inflicted the fatal shot to himself.
You'll notice that the guard didn't kill the assailant, but only seriously wounded him. In addition four people died anyway. And in the end Murry killed himself.
So, having a guard didn't prevent the tragedy. It may be argued that she prevented more people from dying (and I agree for the most part)... however, her shots didn't succeed in killing him.
In a way, I can see the hand of God here. God wouldn't let her kill him. Had the devil in Murry not won over and had Murry kill himself, I think God may have continued to reach for the boy through a prison ministry.
But it boils down to this. Either we live according to situational ethics or the teachings of Jesus. Why did Jesus rebuke his armed security guard?
And some people are so earthly minded they're no heavenly good.
What are your thoughts on Foxe's Book of Martyrs? Were the martyrs written about "no earthly good"?
You know me by now Bro. Tatum, let's look at the text...
Matthew 24:42-44
42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Jesus is saying that we are to be prepared for his coming as one would be prepared for a thief. This parable was a way of telling them to be ready for his coming. Nothing more, nothing less. But, for the sake of additional context... Remember, this is ancient Israel and it was under the Law of Moses. We in the New Testament Church are called to a higher standard of righteousness that supersedes the Law and the laws of our land.
Good post, thanks for your opinions.
As to Foxe's Book of Martyrs, they all died rather than renounce their faith, or were killed for their beliefs. IMO, there is a diference here in renouncing their faith to save their life and acting to save other lives.
Also, I am in agreement with you as to the context of the parable, but my point, IMO, still holds true. Jesus used parables, principles reflected in everyday life to explain kingdom principles as well.
The spiritual application does not negate the truth of everyday life.
Again, IMO. I happen to believe there is a difference in murder and killing.
I find it interesting that if I were ranting about hair or dress codes I'd probably have far more "Amens". However, I'm only sharing the words of Jesus. They preclude the use of deadly force. And for a Christian that should be the end of the subject... but hey... God's still working on all of us right?
Maybe Jesus and the apostles never knew how dangerous it would be living in the 21st Century.
Apparently not. "Former police officer" is how news stories describe her. However, she had a license to carry a weapon. She later said "I was praying and asking the Holy Spirit the entire time to guide me."
Quote:
If so, it wasn't a sin. She had delegated authority from the government to use lethal force if necessary. We might be able to argue the ethics from a Christian perspective all day long... but if she was a licensed peace officer she has not sinned.
Now from a Christian perspective... where was she when Stephen was being stoned? Can you provide at least one example of a Christian using lethal force in the New Testament? They faced more serious dangers than we do.
So again, what should have happened that Sunday morning? Should there have been many more Stephens? Murray was carrying two hand guns, an assault rifle, and a thousand rounds in clips.
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
I'm undecided on the issue, myself. The cliche, if guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns, has some validity, IMO. Yet, guns in the hands of so-called "good" people (if it's possible to define them!) can result in accidental injuries and death. But sometimes they do protect. (I think!)
As someone already mentioned, this idea of a security force in the church better be supported with excellent training.
I agree with your assessment.
I do know that 20-25 yrs ago a UPC church in Miami area had armed guards
present at their services.
Not every church is in a dangerous area/neighborhood, but if it is......perhaps its ok to use commonsense!
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"Le sens commun n'est pas si commun."
(Common sense is not so common.)
Voltaire
Common sense is genius dressed in working clothes.
Ralph Waldo Emerson
Common sense and a sense of humor are the same thing, moving at different speeds. A sense of humor is just common sense, dancing.
William James
I do know that 20-25 yrs ago a UPC church in Miami area had armed guards
present at their services.
Not every church is in a dangerous area/neighborhood, but if it is......perhaps its ok to use commonsense!
No! Gotta stick to The Word! (Right, Aquila?)
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
As to Foxe's Book of Martyrs, they all died rather than renounce their faith, or were killed for their beliefs. IMO, there is a diference here in renouncing their faith to save their life and acting to save other lives.
Bro. Tatum,
I think that there are two ways to deny or renounce the faith. First, one can openly and verbally renounce or deny Christ. Second, one can continue to profess to love Christ, go through the motions of church, Bible reading, and religiosity... yet deny or renounce Christ by disregarding his teachings. Jesus said,
When discussing how to respond to violence and persecution we have to consider what Christ commanded regardless of the consequences of our obedience. You draw a distinction between violence and persecution and believe there is a difference with how we can react to it. I'm curious as to where you find that in the New Testament? My issue with this conclusion is that it creates a real wishy wash code of ethics. For example, if a man were to persecute me for my faith and do violence to me while cursing the fact that I'm a Christian, should he hit me I'm to turn the other cheek, should he curse me I'm to bless him, if he persecutes me I'm to pray for him. Yet with the ethics you present, if the same man sneaks into my home to take my things and threatens my wife (who's also commanded to turn the other cheek and pray for her enemies) I can blow him away. It's just not balanced.
If you look closely at the ethos you hold on this you will find that it's what is called "situational ethics". Your behavior is adaptable and subject to the situation. For example, most Christians believe in "Thou shalt not commit adultery." Yet some Christians have told me, "It's not adultery if my wife is there with me and another or permits me to see another woman." You see, they have situational qualifiers to help them evade the adultery clause. Some folks look at "Love your enemies" and do the same by saying, "Well, if he overtly persecutes me or my family for our faith we'll obey the Lord and pray for our persecutor... but if he breaks into my house late at night and threatens me or my family I've not sinned if I blow him away."
A commandment is a commandment. We have to realize that we are called to obey a commandment even if the situation goes terribly wrong. In fact it's in the heat of the greatest trial that one's faith is truly tried. Will they obey where most men wouldn't?
Jesus put it like this...
Matthew 5:39, 44
“But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. . . . Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you”
He expects us to obey in all situations.
Quote:
Also, I am in agreement with you as to the context of the parable, but my point, IMO, still holds true. Jesus used parables, principles reflected in everyday life to explain kingdom principles as well.
The spiritual application does not negate the truth of everyday life.
Again, IMO. I happen to believe there is a difference in murder and killing.
It's important to note something here. God commanded,
This stands for all time as a part of God's moral Law. However, in the civil law code of Israel, found in the Law of Moses, we read:
Exodus 22:2
“If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him.”
Notice something here.... If a thief be smitten that he die while in the act of burglary the Law didn't require the life of the one who smote him. While the sin of killing took place, there were to be no civil penalties.
Killing is an act that we are commanded not to do. It is a sin in all contexts. However, it isn't always regarded as a "crime" wherein civil penalties follow.
So, let's look at an example situation. Let's say a man breaks into my home and I defend my family and shoot him. I've killed him. I've committed a grave sin in the eyes of God. I have to repent before the Lord and be cleansed. God may never use me as he once could (remember David wasn't permitted to build God's house because he had shed blood). I'll carry that guilt for the rest of my life. However, on a civil level I had the right to defend my home and my sin carries with it no civil penalties.
So I'd like to emphasize that while not all killing is considered "murder"... killing is still killing.
Apparently not. "Former police officer" is how news stories describe her. However, she had a license to carry a weapon. She later said "I was praying and asking the Holy Spirit the entire time to guide me."
So again, what should have happened that Sunday morning? Should there have been many more Stephens? Murray was carrying two hand guns, an assault rifle, and a thousand rounds in clips.
Timmy... sometimes obeying Jesus comes with a high cost.
Now, if she wasn't licensed by the government as a peace officer charged with enforcing the law she has sinned. She needs to seek God's grace. However, I wouldn't charge her with a crime (that's a civil matter). If she refuses to repent and imagines that what she did was the will of Jesus, even though she knows Jesus would have never called her to do such a thing, she'll loose her soul.
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