Timmy... sometimes obeying Jesus comes with a high cost.
Now, if she wasn't licensed by the government as a peace officer charged with enforcing the law she has sinned. She needs to seek God's grace. However, I wouldn't charge her with a crime (that's a civil matter). If she refuses to repent and imagines that what she did was the will of Jesus, even though she knows Jesus would have never called her to do such a thing, she'll loose her soul.
So, I think what you are saying is that Jesus wasn't happy with what happened. There should have been more deaths that morning. He wanted more people to pay that high cost of obedience you mention.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
So, I think what you are saying is that Jesus wasn't happy with what happened. There should have been more deaths that morning. He wanted more people to pay that high cost of obedience you mention.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
That and the apparent idea that Government should be the sole protector.
(And I am not sure who coined it here first but the term "Peace officer" really hits a raw nerve in me.)
The local sheriff is a friend, if he deputizes me, can I shoot 'em then? Huh, huh, can I please?
Points taken. Bear in mind, it is a moot point for me, we are a small church out in the sticks. Most of 'em have a gun in the car anyway. As do I.
Been had a permit for 30 years, since the day after I was beaten by a crowd of 25-30. No, it wasn't religious persecution, but I was trying to be a peace-maker.
Randy, I think you're not really grasping what we're saying.
Jesus not only commanded baptism... he also commanded that we turn the other cheek, if a man tries to take our coat give him our cloak also, if a man would persecute us we pray for him, that we love our enemies, that we take no thought for the marrow, that we not store up treasures on earth but rather in Heaven, that we be as sheep before wolves, that we be harmless as doves, that we be... like him.
A sinner might break into your house to steel your television, stereo styem, and DVD player... but... are those things so important to warrant blowing him away to face an eternal Hell? Absolutely not. If he breaks in to steal your television and stereo, give him your car keys also. While yes, he's currently a sinner in need of much help... his soul is far more valuable than anything he could steal or destroy. In addition... while this is even hard for me to accept... your family is saved. He isn't. He sends them to a glorious reward... but should you kill him he stands to burn forever. At that moment you choose to rule out all possibility of his salvation. You essentially play God and deliver his final judgment. Jesus said,
Matthew 10:37
He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
If Jesus said that you are not to kill this man... and you kill him... you just threw Christ's commandments under the bus for the love of your family. Jesus is #1 Randy... not our wives, not our children, not even ourselves. But Jesus. While I definately would want to take him out like you... I have to accept that Jesus has commanded me not to. I am free to help my family escape. I'm free to choose to protect my family using non-lethal means (a demonstration of love for the enemy). However, I'm not free to kill the persecutor. I'm not free to kill some kid who's hooked on dope... I should pray that our prayers and Christian conduct in the face of death ultimately open his eyes to Christ's reality to the saving of us soul... even if he kills us. The way you choose to die may be the most powerful sermon this kid ever hears. Is his eternal soul worth it? I think so. Else Jesus wouldn't have died for him. Randy... Jesus never said the cross wouldn't be heavy. I shared a story about a man who became a missionary in a country where locals killed his family. I heard a story about a man whose son was killed by a drunk driver and when that young man got out serving time for vehicular manslaughter... the dead boy's father adopted him into his family and even presided over his baptism. Randy... when it comes to being a Christian it's like marriage... for better or for worse.
In short, I don't trust Jesus to save me. I'll say it again. I DON'T trust Jesus to protect me and my family. He promised that we would face tribulation, persecution, and that some would face death for his name's sake. So I don't trust him to deliver us from all harm. I do however know that he has commanded me to be like him. And that I pray I do if faced with my worst fears. I don't expect him to deliver me or my family from dangers... but I know he's expecting me to be like him... even when faced with the horrors of my own crucifixion or the crucifixion of those I love.
That is the depth of what it means to be a Christian. We live unto Christ... and to die is gain. We life for him... and we are called to die for him without betraying his commandments should we be faced with our worst nightmare.
Total surrender to Christ.
Amen, Amen, and Amen! Some aerosol of truth! For he is worthy of all!
Last edited by TheLegalist; 07-03-2009 at 06:07 PM.
So, I think what you are saying is that Jesus wasn't happy with what happened. There should have been more deaths that morning. He wanted more people to pay that high cost of obedience you mention.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
Timmy,
What I'm saying is; Jesus calls us to obedience to his commandments no matter what the cost.
That and the apparent idea that Government should be the sole protector.
Randy, the Word of God (certainly you know what that is) clearly states that government has the God ordained authority to use the sword. It is written,
Romans 13:1-4
1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
So Randy, if you have an issue with government being ordained of God to punish evil and use the sword... you're issue isn't with me because of what I'm saying... but with the Word of God.
Quote:
(And I am not sure who coined it here first but the term "Peace officer" really hits a raw nerve in me.)
Randy, the term "Peace Officer" is a legal term referring to one licensed by the government (God's ordained avenger) to enforce the Law and reign in criminal activity. From the Free Online Dictionary,
peace officer
n.
A law enforcement officer, such as a sheriff, who is responsible for maintaining civil peace.
The local sheriff is a friend, if he deputizes me, can I shoot 'em then? Huh, huh, can I please?
Bro. Tatum, if you are deputized by a duly authorized authority, yes... you may use the sword to enforce the law. That's God's Word not mine (Romans 13:1-4).
Quote:
Points taken. Bear in mind, it is a moot point for me, we are a small church out in the sticks. Most of 'em have a gun in the car anyway. As do I.
Been had a permit for 30 years, since the day after I was beaten by a crowd of 25-30. No, it wasn't religious persecution, but I was trying to be a peace-maker.
If I were your pastor, I'd admonish you by saying, "It is enough." (as Christ said when the disciples started collecting swords)... count the cost and be a Christian. Put your weapons away from you. But you'd probably whine about it and go some church where what Christ taught isn't preached.
I appreciate the differing points of view on this subject but I sitll believe the solution is a reasoned, measured, security plan.
No reaonable person thinks it would be a good thing for a large group of Bubba's to be walking around the church with revolvers stuck in their waistbands.
However for a few responsible well trained men to have a concealed weapon on their person as part of a security plan is only prudent and neccessary in the world we live in.
If a church is large enough then they could hire off duty police officiers or other private security guards but for many churches that would be budget buster so it only makes sense to handle security internally. Many churches incorporate security with their usher operations.
As Timmy pointed out if that church in Colorado had not had a security person in place with a weapon there is no telling what kind of massacre would have happened rather than only a few people losing their lives as happened.
God expects us to use our common sense in life and providing security for a church gathering is no different than the common sense God expects us to use in other areas of life.
__________________ "I think some people love spiritual bondage just the way some people love physical bondage. It makes them feel secure. In the end though it is not healthy for the one who is lost over it or the one who is lives under the oppression even if by their own choice"
Titus2woman on AFF
"We did not wear uniforms. The lady workers dressed in the current fashions of the day, ...silks...satins...jewels or whatever they happened to possess. They were very smartly turned out, so that they made an impressive appearance on the streets where a large part of our work was conducted in the early years.
"It was not until long after, when former Holiness preachers had become part of us, that strict plainness of dress began to be taught.
"Although Entire Sanctification was preached at the beginning of the Movement, it was from a Wesleyan viewpoint, and had in it very little of the later Holiness Movement characteristics. Nothing was ever said about apparel, for everyone was so taken up with the Lord that mode of dress seemingly never occurred to any of us."
Quote from Ethel Goss (widow of 1st UPC Gen Supt. Howard Goss) book "The Winds of God"
What I'm saying is; Jesus calls us to obedience to his commandments no matter what the cost.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
Actually, I think your exposition of the Bible is fairly accurate. I don't believe it, but it's surprising to me that not very many of your fellow OPs seem to believe it, either. It seems they're letting logic and "common sense" get in the way.
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Actually, I think your exposition of the Bible is fairly accurate. I don't believe it, but it's surprising to me that not very many of your fellow OPs seem to believe it, either. It seems they're letting logic and "common sense" get in the way.
I should clarify: I don't believe what the Bible is saying (if your exposition is correct). The other AFFers are, likely, disagreeing with your exposition of it.
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
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