Any willing to answer my question? - Page 3

1Corinth2v4 · #21 07-13-2009, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

I understand what you are saying however these are the facts:
1. Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles called by God and vindicated by supernatural signs and wonders.
2. As the Apostle he had God given authority to address doctrinal and moral issues in those churches.
3. Organizational offices are MANMADE not God instituted thus they have NO divine authority.
4. The ministry are to submit to the ministry NOT some ecclesiastical system that has NO divine authority.
Example if you formed a club and voted in officials and made rules and someone in your club left your club and started his own you could NOT have him arrested BECAUSE your club might mean the world to you but has NO LEGAL AUTHORITY. That authority is given by the consitution and state constitutions NOT the club. Your club might be wonderful but it is a non-entity to the legal community.
ALL organizations are clubs founded by men for certain reasons they may or may not do wonderful works but NONE are DIVINE in authority so Heaven does not back them up in their usurped authority.

Bro. Epley,

I don't think you're understanding the simplicity in my statements. Men submit to leaders when obtaining a ministerial license within the UPCI. This is the same actions Paul practiced, just vice-versa.

(Example: Paul appoints pastors, pastors are now submitted to Paul. A man receives his pastoral license within the UPCI, he willingly submits himself to a UPCI leader)

As you so plainly said, Hebrews 13:17; Obey your leaders and submit to their authority.......

I find it strange that these men can disobey their leader and flee the UPCI, and claim God's will. Yet, if a minister/ congregant leaves these conservative inner-circles, you're a child of Satan.

Steve Epley · #22 07-13-2009, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1Corinth2v4

Bro. Epley,

I don't think you're understanding the simplicity in my statements. Men submit to leaders when obtaining a ministerial license within the UPCI. This is the same actions Paul practiced, just vice-versa.

(Example: Paul appoints pastors, pastors are now submitted to Paul. A man receives his pastoral license within the UPCI, he willingly submits himself to a UPCI leader)

As you so plainly said, Hebrews 13:17; Obey your leaders and submit to their authority.......

I find it strange that these men can disobey their leader and flee the UPCI, and claim God's will. Yet, if a minister/ congregant leaves these conservative inner-circles, you're a child of Satan.

The elected officials of the UPC(or any organization for that matter) do not fulfil any divine Biblical office thus Heb. 13:17 does not apply to them it only applies to Scriptural offices. Apples and oranges.

1Corinth2v4 · #23 07-13-2009, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

The elected officials of the UPC(or any organization for that matter) do not fulfil any divine Biblical office thus Heb. 13:17 does not apply to them it only applies to Scriptural offices. Apples and oranges.

So pastors practiced submission within the New Testament church, yet, that's no longer a practice amongst us now?

To whom then can Heb 13:7 apply to, only saints? When you were pastoring, who were you submitted to?

Tim Rutledge · #24 07-13-2009, 10:53 AM

Because someone is elected into an office does not make them an Elder.. or give them biblical spiritual authority over anything.

Baron1710 · #25 07-13-2009, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Rutledge

Because someone is elected into an office does not make them an Elder.. or give them biblical spiritual authority over anything.

Because someone calls themselves a pastor...

Neck · #26 07-13-2009, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Not to answer every nuance but a general answer is this:
1. The local church is instituted by God and the authority is authorized by scripture. Thus passages like Heb. 13:7,17,21 applies.
2. NO scripture teaches or validates a organization thus the offices are unscriptural so there is NO divine authority being disobeyed.
Apples and Oranges if you please.

So did Paul Pastor all the churches in the New Testament? Or was he the overseer of the churches? Did the pastor's in these churches have to submit to Paul? Mayby an off the subject question just wondering your thoughts.