I agree it includes us too. Yet many are called but few are chosen.
Take the parable of the sower of the word and the good and bad ground. Not everyone receives.
The refiners fire burns off the impure. Those going into the fire are impure. They are removed from the children of light
BTW Scripture does not support Universal reconciliation. However just saying it does over and over and resorting to stories of emotion does not prove that it does.
Nor does you saying the that scripture doesn't support UR, make it true.
Let's see: The all knowing God, all powerful God created a world and then He created living beings to dwell in this world. Oh, yeah He also IS LOVE.
Now He had a plan to bring these beings into MATURE and TRUE relationship with Himself, in doing so He determined that it would require the exposure to both good and evil, this would include some very dark and painful times for His created beings. Yet after this time of pain and darkness, as in human child birth, the "joy set before him and His creation" is well worth the temporary pain and sadness.
Let's see the traditional view: The all knowing God, all powerful God created a world and then He created living beings to dwell in this world. Oh, yeah He also IS LOVE.
But a terrible thing happened, an evil creature out of nowhere shows up and interrupts the plans of Almighty God. God is powerless to stop the onslaught, so creates a plan B....you know the rest of the traditional story....bottom line most of His creation is lost to this evil enemy, and because He can't defeat this enemy He just creates a torture pit to supernaturally burn and torture this enemy, and his lost creation or He just tortures them awhile and then burns them to a crisp.
Make no mistake, Praxeas this is a very emotive story, and has no basis in the true Word or in the nature of our Heavenly Father of all power, and love. THE FIRE THAT COMES FROM GOD ONLY BURNS THE CHAFF AND THE DROSS, THE GOLD AND SILVER OF HIS CREATION IS PURIFIED. Mal. 3:3: Says He is a 'refiners fire' , that should give us a hint of His intentions.
I believe the traditional view is no where near what scripture teaches, rather is the ideas of men, born out of desire for power and control. Evil to the core.
__________________ For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God. (Romans 14:11- NASB)
Let's take the traditional view. Let's imagine an eternal Hell. What is it's purpose? Let's say a 16 year old girl from India who never knew Jesus dies and is sent to Hell. She will burn forever, screaming, pleading, begging, crying, praying, for the next thousand years, and the next ten thousand after that, and the next one hundred thousand after that, and the next million after that... forever. Her horrors increase by the second as eternity's reality sinks in with every passing moment. All for something she did as a 15 year old girl when giggling with her girlfriends, or while dazzled by the charm of a young man. And there are untold millions and perhaps even billions of people who are suffering the same fate. She cries for mercy with every ounce of her being... Heaven is silent. And she never heard. Her girlfriend suffers the same fate. She heard the truth, but with all the competing religious views disregarded it as just "another religious idea". Her terrors are also inflicted upon her, without end.
I think we can see the purpose of Hell if we look closely at what the Bible actually says about the lake of fire:
Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
It's not just a lake of fire... it's a lake of fire and brimstone. What is brimstone? Let's look at how Strong's defines it...
Brimstone:
2303 // yeion // theion // thi'-on //
probably of 2304 (in its original sense of flashing); TDNT - 3:122,*; n n
AV - brimstone 7; 7
1) brimstone
1a) divine incense, because burning brimstone was regarded as having
power to purify, and to ward off disease
The lake of fire and brimstone, by definition, would appear to be designed to purify those within. Just a thought.
Let's take the traditional view. Let's imagine an eternal Hell. What is it's purpose? Let's say a 16 year old girl from India who never knew Jesus dies and is sent to Hell. She will burn forever, screaming, pleading, begging, crying, praying, for the next thousand years, and the next ten thousand after that, and the next one hundred thousand after that, and the next million after that... forever. Her horrors increase by the second as eternity's reality sinks in with every passing moment. All for something she did as a 15 year old girl when giggling with her girlfriends, or while dazzled by the charm of a young man. And there are untold millions and perhaps even billions of people who are suffering the same fate. She cries for mercy with every ounce of her being... Heaven is silent. And she never heard. Her girlfriend suffers the same fate. She heard the truth, but with all the competing religious views disregarded it as just "another religious idea". Her terrors are also inflicted upon her, without end.
What is the purpose of this?
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Put Guderian or Rommel in charge of the Wehrmacht instead of von Rundstet.
Shot Goering
Followed the Brits home from Dunkirk
Build Aircraft cariers - not having an effective naval air arm was a mistake.
Naval bombardment of NYC the day after Pearl, hey if a uboat could surface and shell a freighter in plain sight of the board walk in atlantic city just think what the Bismark, Tirpitz and Graf Spee could lay onto NYC...fill that harbor full of burning junk in no time flat.
NEVER invaded Russia, not at least until I got nukes.
Shot Mussolini, twice maybe.
Shot Goebbels - guy was a moron
Left the jews alone, makes more soldiers for me to take over the world with.
Shot Himmler - guy was a chicken farmer, come on... Heydrich would have made a much better top guy for the SS
But wait, had I done all that I wouldn't be hitler.
Oh well, crazy thread, but I like historical "what if" scenarios.
__________________
Last edited by John Atkinson; 07-16-2009 at 12:01 PM.
Let's take the traditional view. Let's imagine an eternal Hell. What is it's purpose? Let's say a 16 year old girl from India who never knew Jesus dies and is sent to Hell. She will burn forever, screaming, pleading, begging, crying, praying, for the next thousand years, and the next ten thousand after that, and the next one hundred thousand after that, and the next million after that... forever. Her horrors increase by the second as eternity's reality sinks in with every passing moment. All for something she did as a 15 year old girl when giggling with her girlfriends, or while dazzled by the charm of a young man. And there are untold millions and perhaps even billions of people who are suffering the same fate. She cries for mercy with every ounce of her being... Heaven is silent. And she never heard. Her girlfriend suffers the same fate. She heard the truth, but with all the competing religious views disregarded it as just "another religious idea". Her terrors are also inflicted upon her, without end.
What is the purpose of this?
Oh, that we would believe in eternal consequences like this, our quest to launch out wouldn't be filled with so much silliness, but of passion to literally reach the world.
His ways are above our ways, and thoughts above ours. Though I think I can explain, and even somewhat understand, but I don't FULLY understand how the same God could have His people killed in Isaiah, and would command women and children to be killed. In my cultural context, in my mind and knowledge of the grace of God, I can't see it completely. But it tells me something about this great God's character. He is just.
I think we can see the purpose of Hell if we look closely at what the Bible actually says about the lake of fire:
Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
It's not just a lake of fire... it's a lake of fire and brimstone. What is brimstone? Let's look at how Strong's defines it...
Brimstone:
2303 // yeion // theion // thi'-on //
probably of 2304 (in its original sense of flashing); TDNT - 3:122,*; n n
AV - brimstone 7; 7
1) brimstone
1a) divine incense, because burning brimstone was regarded as having
power to purify, and to ward off disease
The lake of fire and brimstone, by definition, would appear to be designed to purify those within. Just a thought.
But to come up with this interpretation, you would have to throw out the accepted meaning, which is #1, not #2. The latter seems to be of some pagan ritual? Either way, this is scriptural reconstruction, Aquila.
It is the understanding of eternity separated from God that gives meaning to God's passion on Calvary. Just a thought. He saved us from something...
Hell is a real place. It is not mere unconsciousness. It is not temporal. It is eternal torment. Perhaps that is why Jesus spoke more of hell than heaven and spent so much time warning people not to go there. After all, if people just stopped existing, why warn them? If it was temporal, they'd get out in a while. But if it were eternal and conscious, then the warning is strong.
Oh, that we would believe in eternal consequences like this, our quest to launch out wouldn't be filled with so much silliness, but of passion to literally reach the world.
His ways are above our ways, and thoughts above ours. Though I think I can explain, and even somewhat understand, but I don't FULLY understand how the same God could have His people killed in Isaiah, and would command women and children to be killed. In my cultural context, in my mind and knowledge of the grace of God, I can't see it completely. But it tells me something about this great God's character. He is just.
All that tells you He is just?
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
It is the understanding of eternity separated from God that gives meaning to God's passion on Calvary. Just a thought. He saved us from something...
Hell is a real place. It is not mere unconsciousness. It is not temporal. It is eternal torment. Perhaps that is why Jesus spoke more of hell than heaven and spent so much time warning people not to go there. After all, if people just stopped existing, why warn them? If it was temporal, they'd get out in a while. But if it were eternal and conscious, then the warning is strong.
Jesus did not speak of hell more than heaven, that is a much repeated myth, please give chapter and verse of Jesus ever warning people about not going to a burning literal hellfire?
Jesus saved us from death, which is the price He paid, otherwise He would have been sent to eternal torment.
Much historical misinterpretation and deception.
__________________ For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God. (Romans 14:11- NASB)
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