Noah and the Ark

[Timmy]

Sigh.

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by Timmy

Sigh.

To expound a bit , can you show scripturally that God will no longer give commands of the type He (so it says) did in the OT?

(And your post is kinda giving a mixed message. On the one hand, if a prophet tells a president to go to war, we know he's a false prophet. On the other, the targeting of civilians was the best option the US had to end the war. As debatable as that point is, if it is true, would you have not allowed for God to give a prophet that info and tell him to pass it along to President Truman? Yes, we were already at war, but I'm just sayin'.)

[Timmy]

Another thought. (Yikes! That's like two in one day! ) I wonder if there were some who doubted Moses' command to kill everyone except the young girls (Numbers 31), basing their doubt on the very same things you do today: their assumptions about what God will or won't say. "No, Moses, God would not tell us to kill those people. That would be against His command not to kill!"

Just sayin'.

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by Aquila

That question was answered in my previous post. The nation of Israel broke the covenant and God has now offered a New Covenant that is opened to all peoples, not just a nation. Today under the New Covenant God isn’t dealing with a geopolitical “nation”, God is dealing with a called out people, a church, comprised of all nations. We are called to be a kingdom of peace wherein God alone is King. We exemplify the Messianic message to the world; our mission isn’t to advance a nation or national agenda. If a “prophet” were to rise and tell a President to “go to war” by some oracle of God we’d know he was a false prophet because that isn’t the covenantal paradigm that God is working from today.

Yes, all things belong to God and God may do with them as he so chooses. Thank him that he’s chosen to operate according to the New Covenant.

We have no way of knowing if there ever really was a Samuel. The entire Bible could be a mythical tale of morals and outdated anecdotes for all we “know”. So if it’s so important that we don’t know if Samuel actually heard God as the Word says… why believe ANY of it? Why not “live it up”?

If you’re right I know that it’s impossible for one to rise from the dead… so who needs Jesus? Christianity becomes the biggest FRAUD on earth. Why are you wasting your precious time on a Christian forum? If the Bible can’t be believed that means one is a fool for believing that Jesus rose from the dead. It becomes highly dishonest and unethical to be a “Christian”. It would be more honest and ethical to be seeking the pleasures that our world has to offer and being totally open about it. It makes the man on the bar stool getting his buzz after work on a Friday night arguing that there is no proof of God far more honest and respectable than being a Pastor wherein you perpetuate mythical stories and extort money from people.

I was military. I’ve seen my share of this world’s horror. I look at it like this… first God was dealing with a nation, second God originally fought there battles for them until they drifted from him and were told to fight their battles on their own, thirdly if a human leader can see a necessity for war… certainly God could.

I think you’re not READING. For example the very first question you presented in this post was previously answered by implication. Did you even read my post?

I agree. Have you ever killed a man NotForSale? Do you know what it’s like? Do you know what it’s like to think, “That wasn’t too bad.”, after your first kill? This is a vile, fallen, and sinful world. God used extreme measures because sadly all too often they are necessary. Think of WWII. We dropped the bomb on Japan and killed multiplied thousands of civilians. Japan surrendered unconditionally saving multiplied thousands of American lives and perhaps even our freedom. Was it terrible? Yes. Did it feel good? No. Was it necessary? Yes. Long term more lives were saved than were lost. I know many get squeamish at the idea of God demanding entire nations be killed. However, consider the thousands of years of blood shed between the Jews and the Arabs. Hypothetically how many lives would have been saved down through the ages had Israel wiped out the Ishmaelits a couple thousand years before Christ?

Sometimes the unthinkable is the most humane thing to do when faced with no win situations on this fallen world.

You still haven't answered the question about killing. What you say is, that God's chosen people can break the Commandant to not kill if the Prophet say's it's OK. You can give me all of your ideas about what Covenant they were in, and what one we are in, but the FACT is, according to the Bible the Commandment to KILL was broken.

Your cold approach to human life is completely "Religious". Your signature at the bottom of your page states, "The only thing more Worldly than Hollywood is Religion". Religion kills, binds, and has corrupted Planet Earth with fighting about who's on God's side and who isn't. And when a Faith finds that a person is leaving or searching for God elsewhere, out comes the HELL FIRE. They are backslidden. They are rebellious. They are false and evil, leaving the Faith, and so the mental torment begins. The door is shut! The person becomes the victim of a "Religious Dog Pile".

Brother, we can play this game of going back and forth on revealing our experiences, but I can tell you are young, because the older we get, the more compassionate we become. We suffer, we see death, disease, failure, and the many woes that people face. We see the fallacy of man more and more, and our hearts break. We see how we've been misled, and how others were manipulated and broken by abusive ministries. We find that the human mind is a delicate place, where mental quarrel can drive a person into deep depression and confusion, trying to make sense of a Book that is debated more than any other Book on Earth. Which Church is right? Which Church is wrong? What conviction should I follow or obey? Who’s saved? Who’s lost? Do I really know? Can I know? The unseen becomes nothing but a battle, and then we condemn a person when they ask “Why”?

I spent 6 years in the Marines, and the killing of our Band of Brothers is not only evident, we are known to take care of the War Business like nobody else. But I will say this; if we went into a city and massacred people like Amalek, our reputation as ethical soldiers would be tainted forever. We have seen where we've made some mistakes in this area and the whole World finds out. And, the men that come back from War with the scar of inhumane killing are men who deal with nightmares, depression, and the struggle to develop a healthy family. These are the facts, Chris. The cold, hard, facts.

Sending men into Amalek to slaughter every living, breathing thing in the Name of God, left these men with nightmares and dread. If it didn't, I don't want to know them. I don't want to understand them. I don't want a heart that can ignore the screams of dying children, and the pleas of begging women. I don't want this "Religion", I don't care what time frame they are from and what God they serve. I have children and grandchildren, and a wife that I love. I am bound to protect and provide for them, not kill them, and the people of Amalek were no different. They had their problems just like we do because they are human beings, and to sterotype the Nation of Amalek as a "Bunch of Heathens", well, look at America. We have more than our share of "DIRT". The Human Race is a pathetic mess as a whole. We are sick. We struggle everyday.

People need mercy, not murder. The World is full of violence, and its men with opinions such as yours that feeds the Warmonger spirit because you defend a bloodshed that most Countries on the Earth abhor. It gives people an image about God that defies the very fiber of who and what people really are. It creates Hate, not Love. Why do you think there is so much Hatred in the Middle East? Why? Because in days gone by, Israel slaughtered past Civilizations saying it was God that told them to do it.

You know, you seem to think that People have always had a Bible; at least that’s my impression, because you paint with a broad brush. The World as a whole, from beginning to end, doesn’t even know what a Bible is. Advanced printing presses didn’t even exist until the 19th Century. We must take this into account if we are ever going to understand God and His purpose for us. Learning about God in the past was not done through reading; it was accomplished by experience because there was no other way.

And, experience has shown me that killing only leads to more killing. The guy who wins leaves the defeated with a grudge. You mention Japan. Oh, we may have won, but they have not forgotten, just like those who surround Israel, with bombs ready to fire. History proves, Allies can become an Enemy overnight.

[Aquila]

NotForSale, you do a lot of projection in your posts. I think you have a lot of good points and thought provoking questions. But I ask that you sincerely listen from a broken spirit, which it sounds like you already have one. I’ll share my thoughts… this isn’t a debate. I’d like to graduate it to a discussion. Let’s talk…

Originally Posted by NotforSale

You still haven't answered the question about killing. What you say is, that God's chosen people can break the Commandant to not kill if the Prophet say's it's OK. You can give me all of your ideas about what Covenant they were in, and what one we are in, but the FACT is, according to the Bible the Commandment to KILL was broken.

I was taught (and I understand that I may have been taught wrong) that the wording of “Thou shalt not kill.”, in Hebrew is more accurately, “Thou shalt not murder.” It’s not a prohibition against all killing. Killing in war for example isn’t necessarily murder. Killing to defend one’s family isn’t necessarily murder. The legal execution of one guilty of murder isn’t murder. Murder is an unjustified, unlawful, taking of human life. So technically when Israel killed while at war, executed law breakers, or killed to defend their homes they didn’t break this commandment.

However, if you search my previous posts about war you’ll find that I’ve voiced that I believe that Christians shouldn’t serve in combat roles or take life in war or even support the death penalty. But my position isn’t so much that these things break the Ten Commandments, but because in today’s world it’s problematic. You see we are NOT Israel. We do not have prophets and leaders hearing directly from God leading our nation. Nor is God dealing with us as a nation. The Gospel is for all nations. Today we see more leaders going to war under false pretenses. This is an issue for the Christian. How can a Christian kill in a war that is truly unjustified? And since it’s so difficult to know if a war is truly justified given the propaganda machine how can a Christian know if a war is justified without witnessing enemy soldiers are dropping into our back yards? For this reason I believe Christians shouldn’t support nor participate in war. Also I’m against the death penalty in most cases. This is because our system isn’t perfect and we know that people have been executed for crimes they never committed. I don’t think a Christian should readily support such an imperfect system’s taking of life. To support the execution of one innocent person under the false pretense that they are believed to be a murderer is unfathomable to me.

Your cold approach to human life is completely "Religious". Your signature at the bottom of your page states, "The only thing more Worldly than Hollywood is Religion". Religion kills, binds, and has corrupted Planet Earth with fighting about who's on God's side and who isn't. And when a Faith finds that a person is leaving or searching for God elsewhere, out comes the HELL FIRE. They are backslidden. They are rebellious. They are false and evil, leaving the Faith, and so the mental torment begins. The door is shut! The person becomes the victim of a "Religious Dog Pile".

Here you’re projecting a caricature upon me. Many will accuse me of being a radical liberal for not supporting Christian participation in war or the death penalty. Odds are you didn’t know that about me. Please do a search to find what I’ve said in the past. On rare occasions have I ever felt such action was justified. I served as a 19K M-1 Tank Crewman until the Lord convicted me about it. Then I told them I was going to transfer to a non-combatant role or leave the service. After four 4187’s my transfer to the medical section was granted and I was trained to be a 91B10 Combat Medical Specialist. Also, you will find posts where I explain why I refuse to own a gun. I have a very high regard for human life NotForSale. I’m surprised that a man of your age and wisdom would project so quickly. It’s really not fair to me.

Also, in all my preaching I’ve never once resorted to Hell Fire and Brimstone. I tend to gravitate to subjects about when God seems cruel, seasons of temptation, the key to victorious living, a smoking flax he will not quench. All were sermons I preached. The Lord has led me to a more reconciliatory ministry (yes I know I love to debate and often get testy here) but most wouldn’t know that about me.

I for one don’t believe that questioning things make one evil. I came from an ultra conservative church and today I’ve chosen house churching over the traditional church for the very reasons you listed. The spiritual blood poison from the ultra conservative church I attended sowed the seeds that eventually led to my wife loosing all faith, choosing to seek the pleasures of this world, and leaving me. Her leaving was for the best after all that had happened. Also she wasn’t happy nor did she love the faith. So I’m here trying to prayerfully put my life back together. Praise God for second chances, I believe I may have found love again though I’m leery and a bit frightened at the prospect because I don’t want to be hurt so badly again. I remember being abused by ministry and tolerating it to keep my spot on the preaching list. I remember the church leadership brow beating and being belligerent to my then wife without cause, false accusations, and snide remarks. I remember tolerating them abusing her… to preserve my ministry. I’d try to smooth her over and encourage her better angels. I’d encourage her to forgive and be strong… but I never took us out of the abusive situation. No wonder she lost all faith, trust, and love for me. I know what you’re talking about NotForSale. It’s ugly and it hurts. It’s devastated my son and all the dreams I had.

I know first hand, and understand the abuse, the hurt, the pain. I don’t know why you projected the notion that I don’t.

Brother, we can play this game of going back and forth on revealing our experiences, but I can tell you are young, because the older we get, the more compassionate we become.

While I understand your point and agree quite a bit, you’re making a very generalized statement and projecting it onto everyone. It isn’t true that as everyone gets older they become more compassionate. Some become terribly bitter and downright mean.

[Aquila]

We suffer, we see death, disease, failure, and the many woes that people face. We see the fallacy of man more and more, and our hearts break. We see how we've been misled, and how others were manipulated and broken by abusive ministries. We find that the human mind is a delicate place, where mental quarrel can drive a person into deep depression and confusion, trying to make sense of a Book that is debated more than any other Book on Earth. Which Church is right? Which Church is wrong? What conviction should I follow or obey? Who’s saved? Who’s lost? Do I really know? Can I know? The unseen becomes nothing but a battle, and then we condemn a person when they ask “Why”?

I more than understand where you’re coming from. This is one reason why I left the traditional mold for the most part and house church. I find that a deep and personal relationship with Jesus overrides all the chaos you’re describing. When I first got to know Jesus, I knew him through the stained glass traditions of Pentecostalism. Today I’m getting to know him, and Jesus isn’t UPCI, ALJC, AoG, or any other denomination. Jesus is God. Jesus also doesn’t have the hang-ups we attribute to him. We often misinterpret his word and assume we know what pleases him when we don’t. The Lord began to lead me down a path that is VERY narrow, yet his yoke is easy and his burden is light. For example, Jesus doesn’t judge you a sinner if you enjoy a bottle of wine with the one you love. Television isn’t a sin; however there are very violent and sinful things on the television we do well to avoid watching.

Modern Apostolic Pentecostalism has become a very dictatorial faith where one man dictates what everyone present should believe. But my Jesus has revealed to me that we do well to have “discussion” not dictates. It’s alright if we all don’t agree on everything. In fact, it’s healthy. I see nothing wrong with asking questions. I encourage it in house church sessions.

I spent 6 years in the Marines, and the killing of our Band of Brothers is not only evident, we are known to take care of the War Business like nobody else. But I will say this; if we went into a city and massacred people like Amalek, our reputation as ethical soldiers would be tainted forever. We have seen where we've made some mistakes in this area and the whole World finds out. And, the men that come back from War with the scar of inhumane killing are men who deal with nightmares, depression, and the struggle to develop a healthy family. These are the facts, Chris. The cold, hard, facts.

My heart bleeds purple panther pee for you Marine. (jk)

Seriously, I understand your point NotForSale. But these things can be allowed to do two things. You can allow them to break you emotionally and succumb to cynicism and unbelief or these things can drive you to fall on your face before your God. A preacher once told me, “Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you react to it.” Another once told me, “Problems can either make you bitter or better. It’s your choice.” I’ve been through a lot too my brother. But I will not allow it to break my faith. Please understand I said, “my faith”. My faith isn’t predicated upon circumstance, events, or what people have done to me. My faith is predicated upon my personal relationship with Jesus minus everything but him.

Sending men into Amalek to slaughter every living, breathing thing in the Name of God, left these men with nightmares and dread. If it didn't, I don't want to know them. I don't want to understand them. I don't want a heart that can ignore the screams of dying children, and the pleas of begging women. I don't want this "Religion", I don't care what time frame they are from and what God they serve. I have children and grandchildren, and a wife that I love. I am bound to protect and provide for them, not kill them, and the people of Amalek were no different. They had their problems just like we do because they are human beings, and to sterotype the Nation of Amalek as a "Bunch of Heathens", well, look at America. We have more than our share of "DIRT". The Human Race is a pathetic mess as a whole. We are sick. We struggle everyday.

I believe that those who fought in Israel’s wars were indeed troubled by the slaughter they were commanded to perform. But I don’t think they were troubled at the level that you and I are at the notion. I think that this is due to desensitization as a result of a far more brutal ancient culture. I see things relative to their place in time. For example today most in a family would be squeamish, scared, and one might pass out if a woman of the house suddenly went into labor in a living room at home. We’d be frantic with trying to either get her to a hospital or get medical assistance. But in our great grandfather’s generation… they’d not miss a beat with delivering a child at home. Society shapes and molds our minds and senses. Try not to judge those of David’s day too harshly. Remember, you mentioned compassion. Have compassion and see them in the shoes they wore, playing the hand they were dealt.

Also take into consideration that the Amalekites were bent on destroying the Israelites. That means that the Amalekites would have loved to have killed every man, woman, and child in Israel… unless of course they could sell them as slaves to serve in the most debaucherous way. It was Israel or the Amalekites. Much like it was the Allies or the Axis Powers. One side would win and though we had to do the unthinkable (use the atom bomb) there was still far more mercy at our hands than had the Axis Powers have one.

My point is that the Amalekites weren’t some peace loving little people that Israel was commanded to beat up on. They were enemies determined to kill every Israelite man, woman, and child. Why do you judge Israel so harshly and not the Amalekites?

People need mercy, not murder. The World is full of violence, and its men with opinions such as yours that feeds the Warmonger spirit because you defend a bloodshed that most Countries on the Earth abhor. It gives people an image about God that defies the very fiber of who and what people really are. It creates Hate, not Love. Why do you think there is so much Hatred in the Middle East? Why? Because in days gone by, Israel slaughtered past Civilizations saying it was God that told them to do it.

Americans by and large are spoiled ungrateful sissies. They would demand that we talk “peace” with an enemy bent our killing our children for the sake of saving the enemy’s children. This is a very tough lesson to learn, and I hate it as much as you do, but on planet earth sometimes you have to do the unthinkable to ensure the lesser of two evils. Yes, it was a crime against humanity to drop the atom bomb on Japanese civilians. But I assure you; they would have done it to us and then executed the survivors. We sent aid and helped rebuild the nations we defeated. You say you are a Marine. You should know better than this.

You know, you seem to think that People have always had a Bible; at least that’s my impression, because you paint with a broad brush. The World as a whole, from beginning to end, doesn’t even know what a Bible is. Advanced printing presses didn’t even exist until the 19th Century. We must take this into account if we are ever going to understand God and His purpose for us. Learning about God in the past was not done through reading; it was accomplished by experience because there was no other way.

You’re projecting again. And I know very well that people haven’t always had a Bible. In fact it is for reasons such as these that I entertain the hope of Universal Reconciliation.

And, experience has shown me that killing only leads to more killing. The guy who wins leaves the defeated with a grudge. You mention Japan. Oh, we may have won, but they have not forgotten, just like those who surround Israel, with bombs ready to fire. History proves, Allies can become an Enemy overnight.

Are you saying that we shouldn’t have chosen to definitively defeat Japan by dropping the atom bomb? You and I both know that you would be speaking Japanese or German right now if we didn’t. And those children you love… imagine the world they’d live in.

You need some time away from the computer to pray and think bro. You may also do well finding someone you can talk to that isn’t in the church you attend, or maybe doesn’t go to church at all. Just to get some of these very negative feelings out and do some soul searching.

I’m praying for you… I hope you’re praying for me. Because I need all the prayer I can get.

[NotforSale]

Chris, thanks for the reply. I sense your an honest man, with a hunger to seek things out for yourself. The Church needs more people to stand up and "Ask".

I'll pretty much sum up my feelings about what we've talked about with this.

Talking about past Civilizations and Cultures will always be problematic, because we simply weren't there. And, the further back we travel, the less we know. This is what I see as being the most powerful element of manipulation, as we "Can't See" what really happened.

Because accountability is far removed from much of the writings we depend on to give us solid direction, and, our current observations of science, life, and relationship differ so drastically from ancient texts, we must question. We must Validate. Otherwise, the World would still be flat.

My personal view is that the Bible carries Truth that must be extracted by the realities that God has given us. I don't believe human love and the passions that we know today are any different than when Cain killed his brother. You can say it was different, but you would be basing that off of an "Out of Sight, Out of Mind" opinion. I feel I must base my love I have for my family, from today, right now, this leading me to what I consider a Truth that can be Validated, not assumed.

Opinions based off of assmuption have darkened our World with false concepts and ideas, and the Church is not left out of the loop of this practice of deceitful theology. In other words, "God told me" so you need to obey (Religion).

I find it troubling that we confine a God that created a Sun, a Galaxy, and a man, to a 1000 page Book. Look at the books alone that define the Human body. Why is it we use modern medicine and technology that expresses and defines the Great Truth of today, but God is still "Stuck" to texts that only blind Faith can uphold?

If we found a cure for cancer, we would accept the treatment and embrace the new found Truth, but when it comes to Faith or God, the drum of old keeps beating even if we discover potential flaw. I don't understand this. I think fear may be in the equation.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Aquila

The point is that while the ancients didn't understand everything God was revealing to them in his Word... the Word doesn't contradict what we have found cosmologically. We can argue that the ancients believed this or believed that... all that shows is that their INTERPRETATION was wrong. The Word itself appears to support what has been found.

There is a barrier that protects our world - Firmament
There is water above the firmament - Interstellar Clouds

Can you show me one of these watery Interstellar Clouds? Show me one. And then describe just how this "water" is being held back from flooding the earth by ... any kind of whatever?

There is no solid barrier that protects our world. There is a relatively thin layer of gases trapped near the earth's surface that filters out harmful radiation - much of the time. Place a dime on a basketball. That's the thickness of our atmosphere in relation to the earth.

A literal application of "the Word" (in Genesis 1 - 11) will give you a false cosmology. There is no solid firmament holding back a watery abyss in the sky. There never was such a thing.

However the truths that God wanted to communicate to the ancients were real and are still true for us today. God did create the heavens and the earth, etc.

But show me one of those watery interstellar clouds that threatens to flood our planet if not for the intervention of the firmament.

*** I have read but not engaged in the other discussion concerning the perceived immorality of the OT commands to kill and such. The cosmology issue does intersect with this as NotForSale has shown when he brought it up. But to understand the differences in the moral outlook I think it's helpful if we understand first that the ancients had a completely different worldview - literally. Their world was not the one that the Age of Discovery found to exist.

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Can you show me one of these watery Interstellar Clouds? Show me one. And then describe just how this "water" is being held back from flooding the earth by ... any kind of whatever?

There is no solid barrier that protects our world. There is a relatively thin layer of gases trapped near the earth's surface that filters out harmful radiation - much of the time. Place a dime on a basketball. That's the thickness of our atmosphere in relation to the earth.

A literal application of "the Word" (in Genesis 1 - 11) will give you a false cosmology. There is no solid firmament holding back a watery abyss in the sky. There never was such a thing.

However the truths that God wanted to communicate to the ancients were real and are still true for us today. God did create the heavens and the earth, etc.

But show me one of those watery interstellar clouds that threatens to flood our planet if not for the intervention of the firmament.

*** I have read but not engaged in the other discussion concerning the perceived immorality of the OT commands to kill and such. The cosmology issue does intersect with this as NotForSale has shown when he brought it up. But to understand the differences in the moral outlook I think it's helpful if we understand first that the ancients had a completely different worldview - literally. Their world was not the one that the Age of Discovery found to exist.

Excellent point. It might compare to the difference of living in the Forest, or the Desert. If the Forest is the only place you've ever known, a Desert might seem like an absolute myth.

People were restricted in Travel, unable to picture a Jungle on the other side of the World, leaving a Textbook that reflected a limited understanding.

Look what rocket science has done to the "View" we never had before.

[NotforSale]

Come on somebody, 1 more post makes 500!! A first for me!