Unless you are proposing the error of universal reconciliation, the fact remains that although Jesus died on the cross to provide atonement for us it does not mean we do not have to repent. Do you believe we have to repent? Let's establish that first, and then we con proceed.
Then argue with Paul
Fortunately, this attitude about salvation represents only about 20% of Pentecostalism globally.
All the concern about "greasy gracers" not being baptized, none experiencing the Spirit and living godly lives can be put to rest. Their personal witness is almost as potent as the biblical theology. It has caused many a 3-stepper to wonder.
Repentance is not the prerequisite. Let's let Paul speak for himself here. The Spirit draws, Christ is revealed, faith (at the heart level) is expressed -- regeneration has happened, justification has happened... in response, and ONLY as a sign (same as it was with circumcision - again read Paul's words in Rom 4-5) we are baptized signifying the death and new life in following our Rabbi Jesus. The Spirit baptism (Promise of the Father) is promised, and is therefore available and accessible to all believers. But make no mistake, all believers, upon faith have the indwelled presence of God.
We seek to compartmentalize it all, but the plan of salvation has never changed since the beginning, it is BY FAITH. That's what God accounts/reckons as righteousness. He loved us while we were still sinners. The response to be baptized is because one already trusts God. If not, they are just getting wet anyway. And to the Jew, they are just getting trimmed! That's not your salvation! Paul was emphatic about this. This is the fault of the Jews as well! Always looking for a sign so they could control it all. Wanting to take the credit. "I got baptized, I repented" as if that merited salvation.
Please show me where scripture baptism and speaking in tongues are required for salvation?
Blume, how was Abraham saved? Moses? Noah? Hint: Paul talks about this in Romans.
uhhhh technically Abraham was not "saved" in Gen 15:6.... God is simply judging his faith/repsonse as just which as James says was fulfilled (thus judged) at the sacrifice of Isaac. He received a covenant to what God wanted to do by obedience.
uhhhh technically Abraham was not "saved" in Gen 15:6.... God is simply judging his faith/repsonse as just which as James says was fulfilled (thus judged) at the sacrifice of Isaac. He received a covenant to what God wanted to do by obedience.
Rom 4:16 Because of this, it is of faith, in order that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be confirmed to all the seed, not to those who are of the law only, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is father of us all.... "i have made you father of many nations" before the God in whom he believed....
I think Romans 4:9-12 couldn't make this any plainer!!
Faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness -- how was it reckoned? When he was circumcised or when he was yet uncircumcised? And he received circumcision as a sign...
I'll go ahead and yield here to the faith of Father Abraham and the authority of Paul.
Pel,
I do believe that Jesus died to save the lost. But, the Word does say that "without the shedding of blood there is no remission". Jesus did shed that blood and his blood is applied at death, which is the burial.
If, as you say, "his blood is applied at death" - then the blood is "applied" at the cross, for that is where He died. Using the "Three Steeper" motif - you appear to now be saying that the "blood is applied" at repentance (death).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pressing-On
If we do not identify with that blood and become baptized/burial, how can He then save us?
In Romans 3:24-26, we have Paul explaining to the Romans the manner in which they were saved, their sins were forgiven and they were "justified" in the sight of God.
It was all done through the blood of Jesus Christ. That blood was shed at Calvary, not in the Garden Tomb.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pressing-On
There is action demanded on our part. Not only to repent, but to be baptized. We must obey the Gospel. (II Thess 1:8; I Peter 4:7) Repent and be baptized are the things that we can do. Faith without words is dead. (James 2:18;20;26) He then freely gives of His Spirit.
I am reminded of the scripture in Hebrews 11:6 "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."
I must believe and have faith, but there are things that I must obey and do. Are you suggesting that you are saved by belief alone?
Suggesting? Sister, I'm shouting it.
The point that I think that you are reaching for here is that Christ is no longer dead!
Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
It was His death that reconciled us back to God (saved us- justified us - and paid the penalty for our sins).
It is His life that will save us "from the wrath that is to come..." By extension, that is our lives as well (Galatians 2:20).
This thread is about how we are saved and become Christians. It's not really about "the Christian life or the Christian walk." That is an important theme as well, but it's not what NOW was stating when he started this thread. Of course, if we don't understand how we were saved from sin, then we can have a pretty messed up walk...
Yes, there are things we must do as Christians - we are His workmanship, created unto good works in Christ (Ephesians 2:10); but if we don't get the foundation right (Ephesians 2:8-9) then we'll have some problems.
She is. "Crisis experience" is actually common terminology when referring to a particular mode of Spirit baptism.
I have never heard that terminology used. It sounds caustic in a discussion, IMO.
You did say this to me last night. So, I think you did have a tone involved.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffrey
What a tragedy that we view this book as the Ultimate Creed of all Faith. That's insecurity and dishonesty at the core.
Basically you accused me of being insecure and dishonest. Lump in calling "speaking in tongues" a "crises experience", well, you figure out if I'm interested in the conversation.
Rom 4:16 Because of this, it is of faith, in order that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be confirmed to all the seed, not to those who are of the law only, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is father of us all.... "i have made you father of many nations" before the God in whom he believed....
I think Romans 4:9-12 couldn't make this any plainer!!
Faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness -- how was it reckoned? When he was circumcised or when he was yet uncircumcised? And he received circumcision as a sign...
His response of circumcision was righteous as well. BECAUSE HE DID WHAT GOD SAID! You still don't understand what Paul is talking about...ROFL! I guess ABRAHAM act was NOT judged RIGHTEOUS in offering ISAAC?
ROFL you still don't get the verse and you are not READING it! By the way Paul does not disagree with me. sheesh
His FAITH was reckoned/considered/calculated/thought as righteous. FAITH IS A DEED JUDGED!
Gen 15:6 Abram believed20 the LORD, and the LORD21 considered his response of faith22 as proof of genuine loyalty.23 NET
Abrahams moving according to God's will in Gen 12 was righteous as well.
just like Phinehas... God judges it "right/just" or not! God was judging his action just like every other action just or unjust in response.
Psa 106:30 Then Phinehas stood up and intervened, and the plague was stayed. Psa 106:31 And that was counted to him as righteousness from generation to generation forever.
Quote:
I'll go ahead and yield here to the faith of Father Abraham and the authority of Paul.
ROLF you can't even understand Gen 15:6 right let alone understand Paul.
Last edited by TheLegalist; 03-31-2010 at 12:17 PM.
If, as you say, "his blood is applied at death" - then the blood is "applied" at the cross, for that is where He died. Using the "Three Steeper" motif - you appear to now be saying that the "blood is applied" at repentance (death).
In Romans 3:24-26, we have Paul explaining to the Romans the manner in which they were saved, their sins were forgiven and they were "justified" in the sight of God.
It was all done through the blood of Jesus Christ. That blood was shed at Calvary, not in the Garden Tomb.
Suggesting? Sister, I'm shouting it.
The point that I think that you are reaching for here is that Christ is no longer dead!
Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
It was His death that reconciled us back to God (saved us- justified us - and paid the penalty for our sins).
It is His life that will save us "from the wrath that is to come..." By extension, that is our lives as well (Galatians 2:20).
This thread is about how we are saved and become Christians. It's not really about "the Christian life or the Christian walk." That is an important theme as well, but it's not what NOW was stating when he started this thread. Of course, if we don't understand how we were saved from sin, then we can have a pretty messed up walk...
Yes, there are things we must do as Christians - we are His workmanship, created unto good works in Christ (Ephesians 2:10); but if we don't get the foundation right (Ephesians 2:8-9) then we'll have some problems.
Even at repentance, where allegedly the blood applies, these on here do not see that person as a child of God. They still have to appease others and experience tongue babbling to be His child.
If, as you say, "his blood is applied at death" - then the blood is "applied" at the cross, for that is where He died. Using the "Three Steeper" motif - you appear to now be saying that the "blood is applied" at repentance (death).
In Romans 3:24-26, we have Paul explaining to the Romans the manner in which they were saved, their sins were forgiven and they were "justified" in the sight of God.
It was all done through the blood of Jesus Christ. That blood was shed at Calvary, not in the Garden Tomb.
Suggesting? Sister, I'm shouting it.
The point that I think that you are reaching for here is that Christ is no longer dead!
Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
It was His death that reconciled us back to God (saved us- justified us - and paid the penalty for our sins).
It is His life that will save us "from the wrath that is to come..." By extension, that is our lives as well (Galatians 2:20).
This thread is about how we are saved and become Christians. It's not really about "the Christian life or the Christian walk." That is an important theme as well, but it's not what NOW was stating when he started this thread. Of course, if we don't understand how we were saved from sin, then we can have a pretty messed up walk...
Yes, there are things we must do as Christians - we are His workmanship, created unto good works in Christ (Ephesians 2:10); but if we don't get the foundation right (Ephesians 2:8-9) then we'll have some problems.
Pel,
I'll have to respond later. I'm really busy. Just sat down to eat a quick lunch. I like to read the news while I'm eating.
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