The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

I just read this quote:

Belief is not merely an agreement with facts in the head, it is also an appetite for God in the heart..Therefore eternal life is not given to people who merely think that Jesus is the Son of God. It is given to people who drink from Jesus as the Son of God...the essence of faith...is more than believing that there is ...such a thing as water and food.

-John Piper, Future Grace

Not bad for a hard-nosed Calvinist is it!

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I understand that the Bible speaks, "without the shedding of blood there is no remission." I see that "remission" is "forgiveness". I see that all of the prophets give witness that through His name, if we believe, we will find remission for our sins. (Acts 10:43). I also find that because I believed all of this I will, therefore, obey the Gospel. I find that if I repent and am baptized, I will receive the remission/forgiveness of my sins. (Acts 2:38). I am not forgiven until I repent and am baptized.

It would take too long right now - but do a search for the word "forgiven" (and "forgiveness" etc.) in the New Testament. At each passage ask yourself, how is a Christian to receive forgiveness for his/her sin? Baptism won't come up one time.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I think that is when the blood takes effect in symbolism. His death is not only in the cross/crucifixion, but also simply because he has died. He was dead on the cross, dead when he was buried. Dead on the cross, dead in the tomb.

Buried with him by baptism into death....reconciled by his death, much more being reconciled by his death, we shall be saved by his life. (Romans 6:4; Romans 5:10)

"Reconciled by His death" - not His burial. Upon conversion and after having freely received the gracious justification that is in the blood of Jesus Christ ("the atonement" Romans 5:8-11), the believer then "follows" the Lord into the tomb (a watery grave) and rises up to newness of life.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

We are justified, freely, by faith in the redemption/ransom paid in full of Jesus Christ. It was paid in full when he resurrected - death, burial, resurrection. We ourselves, having the fruitfruits of the Spirit, groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. (Romans 8:23) Not there yet, but I press toward the mark.....

It was paid in full while His body yet hung on the cross (John 19:30 compared with John 4:34; Leviticus 15:16; Romans 3:25; Romans 5:1-9; Colossians 1:20-23; Hebrews 9:22-28; 1 Peter 1:18-20).

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Not as though I have already attained, either were already perfect, but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which I am also apprehended of Christ Jesus. If I could get a hold of Him how He got a hold of me!

We are not fully saved until we walk through those pearly gates, but we have our belief/faith in Him and we have a Gospel to respond to. We are then made a "habitation" of God through His Spirit and the life I now live in the flesh, I live by faith. (Ephesians 2:22)

My faith had to get me here by some response on my part. My faith and belief that He simply died for me is not going to be enough. What does he say about Abraham? That he believed God and was counted as righteous. But, what else does it say?

"And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham." (Galatians 3:8)

Abraham had some instructions given because He believed, just like we have instructions given to us because of our belief.

I won't be able to respond anymore this afternoon. Just stopped for a bit to post this.

That's cool, P.O. And you are correct about the "just like we have instructions given to us because of our belief."

BUT... ... that wasn't the point of NOW's opening post and this thread.

Galatians 2:20a, is what this thread is about:

"I was crucified with Christ..."

You're jumping ahead to Galatians 2:20b:

"nevertheless I live..."

We need to get the "crucified" part down and get it correctly or else we'll fall into the trap that Paul warns us about in Galatians 2:21.

[Jeffrey]

If we want to talk about "how to live" Paul covers that in Romans too. Quite exhaustive He covers every angle.
Paul affirms we have "died to sin"; we have been taken out from under its tyranny in s transfer so radical and decisive that the language of death and new life can be used of it.

So close is the association of Christ's death to us, that it can be said "we are buried with him."

*throwing out the bait*

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by pelathais

We need to get the "crucified" part down and get it correctly or else we'll fall into the trap that Paul warns us about in Galatians 2:21.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by pelathais

It would take too long right now - but do a search for the word "forgiven" (and "forgiveness" etc.) in the New Testament. At each passage ask yourself, how is a Christian to receive forgiveness for his/her sin? Baptism won't come up one time.

"Reconciled by His death" - not His burial. Upon conversion and after having freely received the gracious justification that is in the blood of Jesus Christ ("the atonement" Romans 5:8-11), the believer then "follows" the Lord into the tomb (a watery grave) and rises up to newness of life.

It was paid in full while His body yet hung on the cross (John 19:30 compared with John 4:34; Leviticus 15:16; Romans 3:25; Romans 5:1-9; Colossians 1:20-23; Hebrews 9:22-28; 1 Peter 1:18-20).

That's cool, P.O. And you are correct about the "just like we have instructions given to us because of our belief."

BUT... ... that wasn't the point of NOW's opening post and this thread.

Galatians 2:20a, is what this thread is about:

"I was crucified with Christ..."

You're jumping ahead to Galatians 2:20b:

"nevertheless I live..."

We need to get the "crucified" part down and get it correctly or else we'll fall into the trap that Paul warns us about in Galatians 2:21.

Sorry, that's the whole picture to me concerning the cross of Jesus Christ. It all rolls up together. I can't compartmentalize the areas. They have to all work together.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

...

We take upon Christ in baptism We come into covenant and partake of his death/blood/sacrifice then. A person cannot come to God at baptism without a turned heart. A person presents themselves just as the scripture talked about presenting your gift before the altar. Your gift(yourself in case of baptism) cannot be repsented with enmity or defiled of heart. When you ar baptized to be united in death and covenant your heart must be sold out to him with a complete turning. Baptism is seen as the altar or the place of sacrifice/death which can also be "to assimilate/buried" by which in which Christ is united with us. Thus we are in covenant with him.

gotta go for the day.

You know, I don't think T.L. is "far from the Kingdom" here. It just seems that he's got this mindset that his own pattern of articulation is the only oracle of God for us today.

It would help if his pattern of articulation was a bit more plain and a bit less ornery; but that can probably be said about any of us.

The metaphor of baptism "as the altar or the place of sacrifice/death" (above) is quite problematic however. The cross is the correct "altar or the place of sacrifice/death." (See Matthew 27:35-51 with Ephesians 2:13-18; also Colossians 1:20-23; Hebrews 9:11-28).

Such obvious misstatements seem to be motivated by an overwhelming desire to promote the "Three Stepper" agenda. I wonder how prevalent this already is among the G.O.B.'s.

Frankly, I am astounded. Is the desire to remove the cross from Christianity so strong that we now have folks who want to make an "altar of sacrifice" out of the Garden Tomb and count the cross of Christ an "unworthy thing?"

Hebrews 10:28-39

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Sorry, that's the whole picture to me concerning the cross of Jesus Christ. It all rolls up together. I can't compartmentalize the areas. They have to all work together.

But they won't work together when people say that they have ""purchased" their own salvation (as TheLegalist said earlier). It won't work. You will fall into the trap that Paul warns us about - you will "frustrate the grace of God..." unless you understand that salvation is a gracious gift.

You may even sink so low as to compare our gracious Lord to someone who dispenses salvation like "sticking a sucker in a bumb's (SIC) mouth..."

The whole theology of the "Christianity Without the Cross" movement is twisted askew because the cross is missing. You haven't "rolled it all up" at all unless you see that we are justified by our faith in what Jesus Christ did freely for us.

I can tell that you guys don't really want to talk about it. That is something you should have considered before jumping into the thread. But now that you're here (off and on) - why not accept that free gift? It's yours simply for the asking. All of the work has already been done and the full price has been paid!

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by pelathais

You know, I don't think T.L. is "far from the Kingdom" here. It just seems that he's got this mindset that his own pattern of articulation is the only oracle of God for us today.

It would help if his pattern of articulation was a bit more plain and a bit less ornery; but that can probably be said about any of us.

The metaphor of baptism "as the altar or the place of sacrifice/death" (above) is quite problematic however. The cross is the correct "altar or the place of sacrifice/death." (See Matthew 27:35-51 with Ephesians 2:13-18; also Colossians 1:20-23; Hebrews 9:11-28).

Such obvious misstatements seem to be motivated by an overwhelming desire to promote the "Three Stepper" agenda. I wonder how prevalent this already is among the G.O.B.'s.

Frankly, I am astounded. Is the desire to remove the cross from Christianity so strong that we now have folks who want to make an "altar of sacrifice" out of the Garden Tomb and count the cross of Christ an "unworthy thing?"

Hebrews 10:28-39

Here's what Moo says about baptism (as it was used in Chpt 6):

Paul refers in vv.3-4 to water baptism; but baptism is not the theme of the paragraph nor is it Paul's purpose to exposit his theology of baptism. Baptism, rather, functions as shorthand for the conversion experience as a whole. As such, it is the instrument (note the "through" in v. 4) by which we are put into relationship with the death and burial of Christ. It is not, then, that baptism is a symbol of dying and rising with Christ; nor is it that baptism is the place at which we die and rise with Christ. Dying and rising with Christ refers to the participation of the believer in the redemptive events themselves; and the ultimate basis for Paul's appeal in this chapter is not what happened when we were baptized, but what happened when Christ died and rose again. The death of his to sin is also our death to sin; and that resurrection of his to new life, in which we will "participate" in the future, is even now working to enable us to "walk in newness of life."

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by pelathais

But they won't work together when people say that they have ""purchased" their own salvation (as TheLegalist said earlier). It won't work. You will fall into the trap that Paul warns us about - you will "frustrate the grace of God..." unless you understand that salvation is a gracious gift.

You may even sink so low as to compare our gracious Lord to someone who dispenses salvation like "sticking a sucker in a bumb's (SIC) mouth..."

The whole theology of the "Christianity Without the Cross" movement is twisted askew because the cross is missing. You haven't "rolled it all up" at all unless you see that we are justified by our faith in what Jesus Christ did freely for us.

I can tell that you guys don't really want to talk about it. That is something you should have considered before jumping into the thread. But now that you're here (off and on) - why not accepting that free gift? It's yours simply for the asking. All of the work has already been done and the full price has been paid!

Approaching the organ bench and warming up some good mood music

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Approaching the organ bench and warming up some good mood music

"Oh whyyyyyyyy not tonighttttttttt, oh, whyyyyyy not tonightttttttttt....."