The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by pelathais

If, as you say, "his blood is applied at death" - then the blood is "applied" at the cross, for that is where He died. Using the "Three Steeper" motif - you appear to now be saying that the "blood is applied" at repentance (death).


In Romans 3:24-26, we have Paul explaining to the Romans the manner in which they were saved, their sins were forgiven and they were "justified" in the sight of God.

It was all done through the blood of Jesus Christ. That blood was shed at Calvary, not in the Garden Tomb.


Suggesting? Sister, I'm shouting it.

The point that I think that you are reaching for here is that Christ is no longer dead!

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

It was His death that reconciled us back to God (saved us- justified us - and paid the penalty for our sins).

It is His life that will save us "from the wrath that is to come..." By extension, that is our lives as well (Galatians 2:20).

This thread is about how we are saved and become Christians. It's not really about "the Christian life or the Christian walk." That is an important theme as well, but it's not what NOW was stating when he started this thread. Of course, if we don't understand how we were saved from sin, then we can have a pretty messed up walk...

... that is why Paul went on to say, (Galatians 2:21).

Yes, there are things we must do as Christians - we are His workmanship, created unto good works in Christ (Ephesians 2:10); but if we don't get the foundation right (Ephesians 2:8-9) then we'll have some problems.

I understand that the Bible speaks, "without the shedding of blood there is no remission." I see that "remission" is "forgiveness". I see that all of the prophets give witness that through His name, if we believe, we will find remission for our sins. (Acts 10:43). I also find that because I believed all of this I will, therefore, obey the Gospel. I find that if I repent and am baptized, I will receive the remission/forgiveness of my sins. (Acts 2:38). I am not forgiven until I repent and am baptized.

I think that is when the blood takes effect in symbolism. His death is not only in the cross/crucifixion, but also simply because he has died. He was dead on the cross, dead when he was buried. Dead on the cross, dead in the tomb.

Buried with him by baptism into death....reconciled by his death, much more being reconciled by his death, we shall be saved by his life. (Romans 6:4; Romans 5:10)

We are justified, freely, by faith in the redemption/ransom paid in full of Jesus Christ. It was paid in full when he resurrected - death, burial, resurrection. We ourselves, having the fruitfruits of the Spirit, groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. (Romans 8:23) Not there yet, but I press toward the mark.....

Not as though I have already attained, either were already perfect, but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which I am also apprehended of Christ Jesus. If I could get a hold of Him how He got a hold of me!

We are not fully saved until we walk through those pearly gates, but we have our belief/faith in Him and we have a Gospel to respond to. We are then made a "habitation" of God through His Spirit and the life I now live in the flesh, I live by faith. (Ephesians 2:22)

My faith had to get me here by some response on my part. My faith and belief that He simply died for me is not going to be enough. What does he say about Abraham? That he believed God and was counted as righteous. But, what else does it say?

"And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham." (Galatians 3:8)

Abraham had some instructions given because He believed, just like we have instructions given to us because of our belief.

I won't be able to respond anymore this afternoon. Just stopped for a bit to post this.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

No one thinks faith is cognitive. Another straw man. Faith is a heart level response to who God is. BECAUSE we believe who he is, we cast off.

I just read this quote:

Belief is not merely an agreement with facts in the head, it is also an appetite for God in the heart..Therefore eternal life is not given to people who merely think that Jesus is the Son of God. It is given to people who drink from Jesus as the Son of God...the essence of faith...is more than believing that there is ...such a thing as water and food.

-John Piper, Future Grace

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by pelathais

LOL. I really don't care "how some view how God IMPUTES upon a person righteousness/faith" if they contradict with what Paul is clearly stating in Romans 4.

I don't know if I'm following your next statements correctly. Taken one way, I agree. Taken another way... well, you should have meant the first way.

The "forced acquittal" (if you want to put it that way) occurs because while you and I were standing condemned in the docket and awaiting execution another man stepped forward and took our place in the gallows.

Because I believe that this man's death was efficacious for the crimes that I was condemned for, I am saved from the penalty for those crimes. Nobody "forces" me to believe this - but, boy-howdy! - am I glad for what that man did for me!

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

That would be salvation by "grace" alone which is not correct. Salvation is by Grace THROUGH faith. God judges your reponse right to obtain salvation. Faith is lifestyle not a condition of simple knowledge. A person obtains covenant by casting off all to obtain not simply believing he died for sins. He believes and does what needs to be done. To obtain salvation.


Salvation is a purchase not simply a forced handout as it costs you something. Not just some bumb on the street corner getting a free salvation sucker stuck in his mouth.

How in the world do you equate what I said to my being "some bumb (SIC) on the street corner getting a free salvation sucker stuck in his mouth?"

I really want to like you here, T.L. but your whole misanthrope approach to those who have believed in faith tells me you must spend a lot of time alone and in a very dark place.

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

scripture of "God's faith in Abraham was justified" in James 2


So your point? God considered him right because he responsed, which is how God judges all actions in that we are either at enmity or not with him. God considered Abraham righteous by doing which is James point of your you have not addressed AND NOT BY FAITH aLONE (mental assent alone)

God judges responses just or unjust. It's that simple! God did not go into covenant with Abraham until he judged his faith. Gen 12 promise was not realized unto covenant(Gen 15) until he moved. Abraham's covenant was not realized until(Gen 22) he was tested again and seen faithful and obedient.
When we call upon his name in baptism(Acts 22:16) he answers our call upon which we are united in covenant unto his death and raised unto newness of life.

Clean off your glasses again, I did "address" James 2. You've just mangled the context of Genesis 15 - 22 so badly that you appear to be one of Aquila's "time warp aliens."

God accounted Abraham righteous in Genesis 15. After the events described in Genesis 22 take place James comes along and says to a group of Christians who have also already been justified - "See, now is Abraham's faith made perfect!"

What you can't deal with is the fact that Abraham was justified by faith already way back in Genesis 15. Also, and this is the heart of the matter - you can't deal with the fact that James is writing to Christian believers who were also already justified by faith.

You've fallen into the trap that Paul told us to avoid in Galatians 2:21, all because you fail to grasp a hold of Galatians 2:20.

[Orthodoxy]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

I just read this quote:

Belief is not merely an agreement with facts in the head, it is also an appetite for God in the heart..Therefore eternal life is not given to people who merely think that Jesus is the Son of God. It is given to people who drink from Jesus as the Son of God...the essence of faith...is more than believing that there is ...such a thing as water and food.

-John Piper, Future Grace

[TheLegalist]

EXPLAIN. PAUL MUST'VE FORGOTTEN THAT IMPORTANT PART OF YOUR COVENANTAL THEOLOGY - OR THAT THE COVENANT WAS NOT A COVENANT OF FAITH HMMMM

not sure what you are taking about.

You get your theological thesis from Mat 5??? That's what this means to you?? Really TL?

It is a principled text of atonement only works if one is turned rightly to God. Basic priciples taught all throughout the bible.

WRONG. God comes to us even while we are sinners.

Never said we didn't but because he comes to us doesn't mean we have turned or trusted in him yet! He presents his offering to us! We response but it must be with out heart TOTALY TOWARD HIM. Thus I again state we cannot come to partake UNLESS we come with our heart right in baptis,

We aren't initiating this thing. We take NO CREDIT.

He may initiate the proposal or offering but we still responsd out of free will. you are correct we cannot take credit for the "offering" of salvation as it is HIS proposal to us.

He comes knocking on our door. We don't "come to him" in any literal way.

Incorrect we come to him by choice to accept his offering. As it is a contract to obtain eternal life. Thus it take the will of both parties to come to agreement and consumation fo the contract.

We "follow Him" as a response to our trust and faith

No trusting him is following him.

Not understanding your sentence that is how we present ourselves to God at baptism

We take upon Christ in baptism We come into covenant and partake of his death/blood/sacrifice then. A person cannot come to God at baptism without a turned heart. A person presents themselves just as the scripture talked about presenting your gift before the altar. Your gift(yourself in case of baptism) cannot be repsented with enmity or defiled of heart. When you ar baptized to be united in death and covenant your heart must be sold out to him with a complete turning. Baptism is seen as the altar or the place of sacrifice/death which can also be "to assimilate/buried" by which in which Christ is united with us. Thus we are in covenant with him.

gotta go for the day.

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

I just read this quote:

Belief is not merely an agreement with facts in the head, it is also an appetite for God in the heart..Therefore eternal life is not given to people who merely think that Jesus is the Son of God. It is given to people who drink from Jesus as the Son of God...the essence of faith...is more than believing that there is ...such a thing as water and food.

-John Piper, Future Grace

I love that!

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

has nothing to do with one-stepper approach. Faith Only is makes a mockery of what "judgment" of just acts is. You cannot be considered "just" until a witness(response) is made evident. Even then that ONLY has to do with God simply not considering you at enmity. Because God considers/reckons you "turned to him" does not mean you have experienced COVENANT which I have pointed out before. you cannot though come into covenant without "the turning" and God judging your response "aright". thus the WHOLE POINT and PRINCIPLE OF

Mat 5:23 So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you,
Mat 5:24 leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.

You cannot come to God seeking covenant unless your heart has been set right. Atonement cannot take place will mean nothing unless your heart has been judged not at enmity. that is how we present ourselves to God at baptism. We have turned at heart to partake in his death. In which we are united IN SACRIFICE and I am united WITH HIM by faith in the working operation of God. In which we rise to newness of life having been separated from the old man.

Take your teeth out and set them on the desk for a moment - you're confusing yourself by muttering and trying to type at the same time. All of the clacking seems to knocked something loose in your head.

And then go back and re-read my post.

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by pelathais

How in the world do you equate what I said to my being "some bumb (SIC) on the street corner getting a free salvation sucker stuck in his mouth?"

wasn't talking about you but in general how so make faith a forced event. LOL!

I really want to like you here, T.L. but your whole misanthrope approach to those who have believed in faith tells me you must spend a lot of time alone and in a very dark place.

ROFL.... now that is funny.

Clean off your glasses again, I did "address" James 2. You've just mangled the context of Genesis 15 - 22 so badly that you appear to be one of Aquila's "time warp aliens."

you addressed it not like to the points I did.

God accounted Abraham righteous in Genesis 15. After the events described in Genesis 22 take place James comes along and says to a group of Christians who have also already been justified - "See, now is Abraham's faith made perfect!"

sorry but James is talking to people are misusing the meaning "faith alone'

most scholars see James rebuking here not some kind hearted oh see....

Jas 2:20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?

What you can't deal with is the fact that Abraham was justified by faith already way back in Genesis 15. Also, and this is the heart of the matter - you can't deal with the fact that James is writing to Christian believers who were also already justified by faith.

ROFL... after all i said you still can't read the text. You can't see James said you are not justified by mental assent/faith alone. Mental assent alone is useless as the devils also believe and tremble. Faith is not about knowing facts as you make Abraham doing in Gen 15:6 when James clearly points that it was his works/response.

You've fallen into the trap that Paul told us to avoid in Galatians 2:21, all because you fail to grasp a hold of Galatians 2:20.

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

get your quotes right before I respond.

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Take your teeth out and set them on the desk for a moment - you're confusing yourself by muttering and trying to type at the same time. All of the clacking seems to knocked something loose in your head.

And then go back and re-read my post.

I knwo exactly what you said as you still don't get it.. have a nice day... I am out!