The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Not every use of the word "work" should be understood as "The Works of the Law" (Romans 3:27).

The term "Legalism" is used to describe those who wanted all Christian believers to be circumcised and to follow the other "works" of the Law of Moses. A "legalist" in the NT sense then would demand obedience to the Law - hence the use of the term "legalist." This is what Paul was fighting against - legalism and the idea that the "Works of the Law" had to be performed by all Christians.

In NT theology, water baptism is never considered a "work." Paul never called baptism a "work." What Paul is telling Agrippa here is that people are being exhorted to change their lives and bring forth fruit from that change. No one is ever told they must be baptized to show that they have repented.

John the Baptist made a similar statement as Paul's when he saw some Pharisees and Sadducees coming out to his baptismal. John called upon them to "bring forth fruit meet for repentance" (Matthew 3:8). This command is clearly not an appeal to get into the water and be baptized. It is a command for them to change their lives.

I see your point here and I agree with you that it was a command for them to change their lives after repentance.

However, II Thess 1:8 says that there is flaming fire waiting for those that would not obey the Gospel. That is a command to repent, etc., He isn't only referring to a command to change their lives here. He is addressing their immediate salvation. It is a command for them to do something on their part.

I disagree and neither you nor Mike have offered any help for your statements. The "free pass" into the Kingdom is the free gift of God's grace. I have come to expect TheLegalist to say that the Gospel is not freely offered, but I'm a little surprised that you have fallen into this rhetoric. The free gift of our salvation was paid with a terrible price - the blood of Jesus Christ! To then add some more "cost" to it or to say that a believer is a like "a bumb (SIC) downtown" who gets a lollipop popped into his mouth is really startling.

Romans 5:15-21 (NKJV)

Here Paul explicitly calls salvation a "FREE GIFT." You didn't earn it, you don't deserve it; you could never earn it - but it's still all yours FREE just for the asking. All that is required is that you believe and call on Him "while He may be found."

Why can't you and Mike - and so many others - just relax, throw your arms into the air and say, "IT'S FREE! AND THAT IS WHAT HAS MADE ME TO BECOME FREE AS WELL!!!"

John 10:17-18 (NKJV) - "No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself."

You gonna argue with that? It was HIS life. Nobody could even take it away from Him. So what does He do? He offers it freely

Romans 8:31-39 - Just look at the confidence and the exhilaration for life that Paul has because he has been the recipient of a free gift (compare verse 32).

1 Corinthians 2:12 - Hasn't the Holy Ghost testified to you that eternal life is yours - for FREE?

Revelation 21:6 and Revelation 22:17 - The waters of life are available for you - for FREE!

"Ho! Everyone who thirsts, Come to the waters; And you who have no money, Come, buy and eat. Yes, come, buy wine and milk Without money and without price."

Isaiah 55

Galatians 1:3-5

Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.

We didn't PAY Him to die for us. We didn't and could not ever pay Him pack for the gift He gave.

I believe that Jesus "willingly" and "freely" gave His life and offers us a way of escape. Everything He has is available for us because of His sacrifice. As we have already stated, everything flows from the cross.

When He says "free" it is defined as "liberate". I don't see, in all instances, that it is being defined as "having no cost or without a charge."

I Cor 2:12 "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God."

This scripture is reaching past our obtained salvation to the things we are "freely given" having His Spirit. It is referring to the things the Spirit does teach us. (I John 2:27)

If we obey the Gospel, we are then liberated from sin. It cost Him a great deal. By His grace and His mercy He has torn down the middle wall of partition to accept all those that are willing. But we must do our part. We must willingly obey the Gospel. That is the only way we can partake of anything Jesus has to offer.

Ephesians 3:6 "That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:" (Ephesians 3:6).

We are made partakers BY/THROUGH the Gospel. We must obey. (II Thess 1:8; Acts 5:32; Hebrews 5:9; I Peter 4:7).

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by rgcraig

lol....so, are you going to apologize for giving him such a hard time using a real term?

No, because one place that I read it was speaking of the second blessing, the Holy Ghost infilling and the "crisis experience". I looked somewhere else to get a better understanding. Sorry to disappoint you.

And, BTW, your post is probably a good example of why I didn't and won't apologize for my previous infraction.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by pelathais

You have to keep in mind however, that the teachings of Wesley laid the foundation for the entire Holiness Movement. What we are today is a large part due to the "forum debates" that Wesley had with others; such as George Whitefield.

Wesley, with his teaching of "Entire Sanctification" founded the Holiness Movement. Debates then raged for over 100 years about "How do you know that you've been sanctified?" As people continued to pray and seek God, such things as Charles G. Finney's "anxiety bench" were introduced (he didn't call it that but the name stuck anyhow).

Finney used to bring out an old bench and place it at the front of the church and exhort members of his audience to come forward to kneel in front of the bench and to pray until "conviction fell." This is generally considered the origin of today's altar calls.

But folks were still casting about trying to find a final answer to Wesley's quest as outline here: http://www.whatsaiththescripture.com...Perfectio.html

Read the numbered points in the article. They are an excellent outline that trace Wesley's thoughts over the course of the development of the idea of "Sinless Perfection." This was the "Holy Grail" of the Holiness Movement.

But human nature being what it is, few people found a way to accomplish this state for an extended period of time - especially in their youths. So ministers were anxious to find some sort of "mark" or a sign" that their converts and parishioners had finally "arrived."

Folks experienced things they called "The Baptism of Fire" and "The Baptism of the Holy Ghost" - but experiences varied across the country and it was difficult to get the Holiness Movement as a whole behind any one phenomena.

Enter Charles Fox Parham. He became convinced that the state of "sinless perfection" could be achieved by the experience of the "infilling of the Holy Spirit." But again, how would you know objectively that someone had received the "infilling" or the baptism of the Spirit? This is where his idea of "speaking in other tongues" became the "evidence" of the Spirit's baptism.

Which brings us to the Finished Work doctrine that opposed Wesley's view.

This debate actually still goes on today!

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

All of that is very interesting - men trying to define and categorize what God is doing and make that work with their experiences.

I remember Bro. Billy Cole being called in as a Charismatic. He would explain the Gospel, sometimes put a chair out, have the person repent, become baptized and then he simply wanted them to believe they would receive the Holy Ghost and they would. He was being tagged as a charismatic for his simple teaching of faith. LOL!

Charismatic wasn't a pejorative term always. That's just in the last 20 years. And to some, it's still not pejorative though!

In a matter of genre, Pentecostal/Charismatic go together like a horse and carriage.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

No, because one place that I read it was speaking of the second blessing, the Holy Ghost infilling and the "crisis experience". I looked somewhere else to get a better understanding. Sorry to disappoint you.

And, BTW, your post is probably a good example of why I didn't and won't apologize for my previous infraction.

Second and Third Blessing. In other words, all of these episodes, whatever you want to call them that suits you personally, refer to a powerful interaction with the Spirit. Wesley believed a similar crisis experience for baptism in the Spirit was what happened for sanctification. Of course his doctrine spun out of control with the Holiness movement and later Pentecostals, and those who believed later that we are imputed (literally) righteousness, which fed into triumphalism and this idea that perfection is realistic, and even a present reality.

[Jeffrey]

I would recommend looking up the thread "Salvation and the Spirit" as an addendum to this thread, which Pel has really helped become something to read.

[Pastor Keith]

You haven't really been saved until your

Saved
Sanctified
Holy Ghost Filled
Fire Baptized

or so they said in the old days

[DAII]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Not every use of the word "work" should be understood as "The Works of the Law" (Romans 3:27).

The term "Legalism" is used to describe those who wanted all Christian believers to be circumcised and to follow the other "works" of the Law of Moses. A "legalist" in the NT sense then would demand obedience to the Law - hence the use of the term "legalist." This is what Paul was fighting against - legalism and the idea that the "Works of the Law" had to be performed by all Christians.

In NT theology, water baptism is never considered a "work." Paul never called baptism a "work." What Paul is telling Agrippa here is that people are being exhorted to change their lives and bring forth fruit from that change. No one is ever told they must be baptized to show that they have repented.

John the Baptist made a similar statement as Paul's when he saw some Pharisees and Sadducees coming out to his baptismal. John called upon them to "bring forth fruit meet for repentance" (Matthew 3:8). This command is clearly not an appeal to get into the water and be baptized. It is a command for them to change their lives.

I disagree and neither you nor Mike have offered any help for your statements. The "free pass" into the Kingdom is the free gift of God's grace. I have come to expect TheLegalist to say that the Gospel is not freely offered, but I'm a little surprised that you have fallen into this rhetoric. The free gift of our salvation was paid with a terrible price - the blood of Jesus Christ! To then add some more "cost" to it or to say that a believer is a like "a bumb (SIC) downtown" who gets a lollipop popped into his mouth is really startling.

Romans 5:15-21 (NKJV)

Here Paul explicitly calls salvation a "FREE GIFT." You didn't earn it, you don't deserve it; you could never earn it - but it's still all yours FREE just for the asking. All that is required is that you believe and call on Him "while He may be found."

Why can't you and Mike - and so many others - just relax, throw your arms into the air and say, "IT'S FREE! AND THAT IS WHAT HAS MADE ME TO BECOME FREE AS WELL!!!"

John 10:17-18 (NKJV) - "No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself."

You gonna argue with that? It was HIS life. Nobody could even take it away from Him. So what does He do? He offers it freely

Romans 8:31-39 - Just look at the confidence and the exhilaration for life that Paul has because he has been the recipient of a free gift (compare verse 32).

1 Corinthians 2:12 - Hasn't the Holy Ghost testified to you that eternal life is yours - for FREE?

Revelation 21:6 and Revelation 22:17 - The waters of life are available for you - for FREE!

"Ho! Everyone who thirsts, Come to the waters; And you who have no money, Come, buy and eat. Yes, come, buy wine and milk Without money and without price."

Isaiah 55

Galatians 1:3-5

Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.

We didn't PAY Him to die for us. We didn't and could not ever pay Him pack for the gift He gave.

Agreed the idea of works is also tied to works of RIGHTEOUSNESS .... a term Paul uses this term in Titus:

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Also atually Paul does NOT use the expression "THE works of THE law" (even ONCE). The translators have wrongly inserted the definite article "THE". In the original Greek (as Young's literal translation tells us) Paul is talking about a more generic expression "works of law". NOT "the works of the law" - just "works of law". That's worth taking a note of, because it gives us a clue about what Paul is really criticizing.

For example he uses the expression works of law with Abraham which precedes the Mosaic law.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. NKJV


This notion that we purchase our salvation be ANATHEMA.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Second and Third Blessing. In other words, all of these episodes, whatever you want to call them that suits you personally, refer to a powerful interaction with the Spirit. Wesley believed a similar crisis experience for baptism in the Spirit was what happened for sanctification. Of course his doctrine spun out of control with the Holiness movement and later Pentecostals, and those who believed later that we are imputed (literally) righteousness, which fed into triumphalism and this idea that perfection is realistic, and even a present reality.

This idea that perfection is a reality? You mean the idea that came from the Lord Jesus Christ?

48: Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Matt. 5:48

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

No, because one place that I read it was speaking of the second blessing, the Holy Ghost infilling and the "crisis experience". I looked somewhere else to get a better understanding. Sorry to disappoint you.

And, BTW, your post is probably a good example of why I didn't and won't apologize for my previous infraction.

But, you did apologize for what you said to me, which I appreciated.