The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

wow so basically you have no witness by manifestation BY the Spirit as they exepected in Acts 8 or as Paul looked for in Acts 19 post "belief". Simply believing is not automatic reception of the HS. Paul clearly shows this as does Acts 8.

Well, argue with the bible then:

Ephesians 1:13 And now you also have heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, he identified you as his own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom he promised long ago.

John 7:39 When he said "living water," he was speaking of the Spirit, who would be given to everyone believing in him.

I John 4:15 All who proclaim that Jesus is the Son of God have God living in them, and they live in God.

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Well, argue with the bible then:

Ephesians 1:13 And now you also have heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, he identified you as his own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom he promised long ago.

John 7:39 When he said "living water," he was speaking of the Spirit, who would be given to everyone believing in him.

I John 4:15 All who proclaim that Jesus is the Son of God have God living in them, and they live in God.

I am not arguing against but understanding them within context of what is meant by belief.

Ephesians doesn't negate a thing I have said WHEN YOU BELIEVED he identified with you as his own giving his Spirit?

Correct... How do you know WHEN he identified "WITNESSED/ACCEPTED" you? Which is the points I have been making! The texts has have nothing against the points which are raised. People had already believed and had not received... Paul asked HAVE YOU SINCE which means it is not automatic reception without knowing THUS NOT BLIND FAITH.

John 7:39 AGAIN BELIEVING is the point by which we CAN receive it does not mean WE HAVE! THUS PAUL'S QUESTION IN ACTS 19!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

1 John 4:15 This is true as a general statement of the saved. Was this true HOW YOU WANT IT TO MEAN AND REFER IN Acts 8? NO! Does Paul ask about confession or something WE do to confirm.... that you have received? NO! It's about THE SPIRIT and HIS MANIFEST PRESENCE!

As you KEEP dodging Acts 8 and 19

[Adino]

Bumped for Pressing-On (and/or like positional advocates)...

Me before:

Faith is itself obedience to the Gospel. Having a heart converted to faith in Christ IS how one 'obeys the Gospel.'

In Romans 10:16 Paul very clearly connects 'believing the report' (Isaiah 53:1) with obedience to the Gospel.

"But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?"

Many miss the fact that the phrase "who hath believed our report" of Isaiah 53:1 is also connected to the heart conversion and healing spoken of in Isaiah 6:10, Matthew 13:15, Mark 4:11-12, John 12:37-40, and Acts 28:23-29. In these passages, the heart that understands and converts is healed (Mark uses "forgiven").

Faith comes by hearing the word of God (Romans 10:17), by hearing the Gospel (Acts 15:7), by believing the report of God which is the record he gave of his son (1John 5:10-13). The heart which hears the Gospel then understands and converts IS HEALED (Isaiah 6:10, Matthew 13:15, Mark 4:11-12, John 12:37-40, and Acts 28:23-29). The understanding and conversion which brings healing is of the heart. The heart which obeys the Gospel, by believing it, is healed/forgiven.

2Thessalonians 1:8 and 1Peter 4:17 should be seen in this light. The obedience to the Gospel IS the obedience of faith (Romans 16:26).

Again, to obey the Gospel is to believe it!

Do you deny that Scripture teaches a conversion of the heart is adequate 'obedience to the Gospel' to bring about the inner healing spoken of in my referenced passages?

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Well, argue with the bible then:

Ephesians 1:13 And now you also have heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, he identified you as his own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom he promised long ago.

John 7:39 When he said "living water," he was speaking of the Spirit, who would be given to everyone believing in him.

I John 4:15 All who proclaim that Jesus is the Son of God have God living in them, and they live in God.

Ephesians 1:13 is a DIRECT REFERENCE to these very people he ministered to in Acts 19. When he mentioned THEM receiving the Spirit all you have to do is look at Acts 19 to see EXACTLY the situation he had in mind.

1: And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2: He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3: And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4: Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5: When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6: And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. Acts 19:6

So when you see Ephesians 1:3 look back to the very experience Paul is writing about in Acts 19:6.

It CONFIRMS the doctrine that the Holy Spirit baptism is not automatic.

As to "rivers of living water" that is by no means automatic. It is a real experience. It is the "outpouring" prophesied by Joel.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Adino

Bumped for Pressing-On (and/or like positional advocates)...

Me before:

Faith is itself obedience to the Gospel. Having a heart converted to faith in Christ IS how one 'obeys the Gospel.'

In Romans 10:16 Paul very clearly connects 'believing the report' (Isaiah 53:1) with obedience to the Gospel.

"But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?"

Many miss the fact that the phrase "who hath believed our report" of Isaiah 53:1 is also connected to the heart conversion and healing spoken of in Isaiah 6:10, Matthew 13:15, Mark 4:11-12, John 12:37-40, and Acts 28:23-29. In these passages, the heart that understands and converts is healed (Mark uses "forgiven").

Faith comes by hearing the word of God (Romans 10:17), by hearing the Gospel (Acts 15:7), by believing the report of God which is the record he gave of his son (1John 5:10-13). The heart which hears the Gospel then understands and converts IS HEALED (Isaiah 6:10, Matthew 13:15, Mark 4:11-12, John 12:37-40, and Acts 28:23-29). The understanding and conversion which brings healing is of the heart. The heart which obeys the Gospel, by believing it, is healed/forgiven.

2Thessalonians 1:8 and 1Peter 4:17 should be seen in this light. The obedience to the Gospel IS the obedience of faith (Romans 16:26).

Again, to obey the Gospel is to believe it!

Do you deny that Scripture teaches a conversion of the heart is adequate 'obedience to the Gospel' to bring about the inner healing spoken of in my referenced passages?

Yes, I deny that scripture teaches a conversion of the heart is "adequate obedience to the Gospel".

The point of Romans 10:1 - "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved."

"The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree." Acts 5:30

"And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:.." Acts 10:39; Acts 13:24-52

Their belief and faith in Jesus Christ needed to be established before they could obey the Gospel. If "having a heart converted to faith in Christ IS how one 'obeys the Gospel", John the Baptist would not have preached a "baptism of repentance", Peter would not have preached what he did on the Day of Pentecost, and God would not have told Cornelius to send for Peter.

To say that what Peter preached is not the Gospel but our response to the Gospel is not totally accurate, IMO. What Peter preached, on the Day of Pentecost, is just as much a part of the Death, Burial and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. I don't believe you can separate the two - the belief and the obedience or response to.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

I am not arguing against but understanding them within context of what is meant by belief.

Ephesians doesn't negate a thing I have said WHEN YOU BELIEVED he identified with you as his own giving his Spirit?

••Actually, Ephesians 1:13 negates everything you've said. It very simply says, "And when you believed in Christ, he identified you as his own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom he promised long ago".

So do you believe that verse? Let's ask this...does every person who believes receive the Holy Spirit? That is what it says, so do you believe that? Would you take it to believe that if you believe, you will...as in a futuristic statement....receive the Holy Spirit?

Correct... How do you know WHEN he identified "WITNESSED/ACCEPTED" you?

••When I believed in my heart and confessed with my mouth that Jesus is Lord and that God has raised Him from the dead. Simple.

Which is the points I have been making! The texts has have nothing against the points which are raised.

••It has everything to do with it. It's a very simple statement that cannot be added to. Well, it can be added to, which you are doing, but it's not right.

People had already believed and had not received... Paul asked HAVE YOU SINCE which means it is not automatic reception without knowing THUS NOT BLIND FAITH.

••I'm gonna post something Chuck Smith said about this verse. I'm sure you'll disagree, but I'll put it in a separate post.

John 7:39 AGAIN BELIEVING is the point by which we CAN receive it does not mean WE HAVE! THUS PAUL'S QUESTION IN ACTS 19!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

••But it doesn't say, "If you believe you CAN receive". It says "Which will be given to everyone who believes."

1 John 4:15 This is true as a general statement of the saved. Was this true HOW YOU WANT IT TO MEAN AND REFER IN Acts 8? NO! Does Paul ask about confession or something WE do to confirm.... that you have received? NO! It's about THE SPIRIT and HIS MANIFEST PRESENCE!

As you KEEP dodging Acts 8 and 19

••What would you like to know...what Simon the sorcerer saw? There are a myriad of things he could have seen. Chuck Smith mentions the number of ways the Holy Spirit manifests itself. If you put Simon's testimony into a box where it can only mean "Tongues", you are doing the Holy Spirit a GREAT disservice. The Holy Spirit is SO much more and I hate to see you, or others limit it to that.

If one works hard enough at it, one can make any verse mean anything. And you've worked very hard.

[notofworks]

Here are the Chuck Smith notes which, I'm sure, you'll disagree with. But here they are nonetheless.





WHY WOULD PAUL ASK THIS QUESTION?
A. He no doubt saw that their experience in Christ was lacking something.
1. Maybe there was an absence of love.
a. One of the real marks of the truly Spirit filled life is love. The fruit of the Spirit is love.
b. This love is described as bringing joy and peace, and causing us to be longsuffering. It manifests itself in gentleness, goodness, meekness faithfulness and self control.
2. Maybe they lacked real zeal and enthusiasm for the things of the Spirit.
3. It could be that they lacked a real dynamic in their walk with Jesus, and their witness for Him.
4. Whatever it was that Paul noticed, he suspicioned their deficiency was due to the absence of the Holy Spirit.
B. It is one thing to be filled with the Holy Spirit, and quite another to be overflowing with the Spirit.
1. When on the feast day, recorded by John in chapter 7, Jesus stood and cried to the assembled multitude, "If any man thirst let him come unto Me and drink, and he that drinks of the water that I give, as the scripture says, out of his innermost being there will flow rivers of living water." John tells us that Jesus was speaking of the Spirit which was not yet given.
a. What did He say of the Spirit? He would be like a torrent of living water flowing out from your life.
b. The question really is not do you have the Holy Spirit dwelling in you, but do you have the Holy Spirit flowing out from your life like a torrent of living water?
2. You can pour water in a glass until the glass is full, but if you keep pouring, the glass will begin to overflow. There is a difference between full and overflowing.
C. Many have complained of the difficulty of living the Christian life, and have given up because they found that it was too difficult. It is not only difficult, it is impossible.
1. It is very frustrating to see the ideal and to admire the ideal, to admit to the ideal, and then be unable to live up to the standards of the ideal.
2. Paul spoke of that frustration in his own life in Romans 7. "I do the things I don't want to do, and I don't do the things I desire to do. I hate the things I do. I consent to the law that it is good, but I cannot perform that which is good. When I would do good, evil is present with me. My inward man delights in the law of God, but their is another law in my flesh that wars against my mind, and brings me into bondage to my flesh. Oh wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me from the body of death?"
3. Paul then found his answer in chapter 8 as he speaks of the life in the Spirit. "The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has freed me from the law of sin and death, for what the law could not do because of the weakness of my flesh, God has done for me by sending His Son in the flesh, that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in me as I walk after the Spirit. So then they who are in the flesh cannot please God, but we are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit if the Spirit of God is dwelling in us."
4. He shows me the ideal, and then gives me the power to live the ideal.
III. HAVE YOU RECEIVED THE HOLY SPIRIT? IS THERE SOMETHING MISSING IN YOUR WALK WITH THE LORD? ARE YOU LIVING A DYNAMIC CHRISTIAN LIFE?
A. On a scale of one to ten, where would you rate your fervency for Christ?
B. If Paul would meet you and visit for a while, would he be apt to ask you if you received the Holy Spirit when you believed?
C. Is the Spirit flowing forth from your life like a torrent of living water?
D. Would you like a new dynamic to live the Christian life?
E. Ask the Father for the gift of the Holy Spirit, that your life might overflow with His love and power. Jesus said that if you earthly fathers know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those that ask Him.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Pel,

Dont fret! I am indeed a warrior of grace. Note what the Apostle says grace does:

11: For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12: Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Titus 2:13

It both brings salvation and teaches us to live a life of obedience towards Yeshua Messiah.

Yes! The topic of this thread is there in the first clause. "The grace of God brings salvation!"

The rest is important, but a topic for other threads.

Move Michael back over to our column, boys!

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

NOW, NOW MICHAEL.... how dare you bring your legalism into this. You make God's grace noneffect by that teaching.... (sarcasm) Teaching us to do that which brings life.... oh come on didn't you know you are saved only by the work of the cross which is something he did and that you just stand there and God just gives you a eschatological acquittal RIGHT AT THE POINT! Works are meaningless in judgment... by works NO MAN IS JUSTIFIED... blah blah which is taken out of context. You have no standing before God by works and works don't effect your eternal standing..... (more sarcasm) LOL!

C'mon, T.L. You're so close as well!

What brings salvation in the verse Michael quoted? C'mon! Be a "Warrior for Grace!"

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

I am not your judge God is. I believe the Spirit will manifest/pour out himself. Don't know you nor your story and even if I did doesn't matter as it's God who does the work not us. Can you be under the covenant of Christ without baptism? No! Did the Spirit manifest his acceptance to you? obviously no thus as far as I know. Did you receive the HS when you believed as Paul asked in Acts 19? It's not about blind faith one has but knowing by manifestation without question of witness. One cannot ask that question if blind faith of reception is what Paul was thinking.

Now, now... don't balk. You can either give this man the consolation that he has believed the Gospel or you can send him to hell.

Be a "straight shooter."

You said you weren't his judge and then you declared that the Holy Spirit had not "accepted him." How can you account for this?

But then again, "What brings salvation?" (see previous post).