The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Ephesians 1:13 is a DIRECT REFERENCE to these very people he ministered to in Acts 19. When he mentioned THEM receiving the Spirit all you have to do is look at Acts 19 to see EXACTLY the situation he had in mind.

Uh... not "EXACTLY."

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

1: And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2: He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3: And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4: Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5: When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6: And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. Acts 19:6

So when you see Ephesians 1:3 look back to the very experience Paul is writing about in Acts 19:6.

It CONFIRMS the doctrine that the Holy Spirit baptism is not automatic.

As to "rivers of living water" that is by no means automatic. It is a real experience. It is the "outpouring" prophesied by Joel.

Paul's ministry to the Ephesians spanned many more experiences than just those related to the former disciples of John. See Acts 18:19 (Jews in the synagogue), Acts 18:27 (Apollos who "believed through grace" and was thus added to the church), and continuing through all of chapter 19, we read of the numbers of believers growing).

The epistle to the Ephesians wasn't addressed to just "twelve men" (Acts 19:7), but to "the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus." In that epistle Paul makes it a point to remind the Ephesians just how they were saved (Ephesians 1:7) and emphatically points out that it was a sovereign act of God Himself that brought salvation to the Ephesians ("from the foundation of the world" - Ephesians 1:4).

Just what did the disciples of John do at the "foundation of the world?" What were you doing?

None of us even existed yet! And yet, God was making a provision for our salvation.

Matthew 25:34; John 17:24; Acts 15:18; 1Peter 1:20; Revelation 13:8, Revelation 17:8.

Our salvation is the result of God's acts and His plans. He brought it about, not we ourselves (Ephesians 2:8-9).

You can't earn this gift. You don't deserve this gift and nothing that you or I do will change that. If we could change that fact, then it would no longer be a gift (Romans 4:4).

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Uh... not "EXACTLY."


Paul's ministry to the Ephesians spanned many more experiences than just those related to the former disciples of John. See Acts 18:19 (Jews in the synagogue), Acts 18:27 (Apollos who "believed through grace" and was thus added to the church), and continuing through all of chapter 19, we read of the numbers of believers growing).

The epistle to the Ephesians wasn't addressed to just "twelve men" (Acts 19:7), but to "the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus." In that epistle Paul makes it a point to remind the Ephesians just how they were saved (Ephesians 1:7) and emphatically points out that it was a sovereign act of God Himself that brought salvation to the Ephesians ("from the foundation of the world" - Ephesians 1:4).

Just what did the disciples of John do at the "foundation of the world?" What were you doing?

None of us even existed yet! And yet, God was making a provision for our salvation.

Matthew 25:34; John 17:24; Acts 15:18; 1Peter 1:20; Revelation 13:8, Revelation 17:8.

Our salvation is the result of God's acts and His plans. He brought it about, not we ourselves (Ephesians 2:8-9).

You can't earn this gift. You don't deserve this gift and nothing that you or I do will change that. If we could change that fact, then it would no longer be a gift (Romans 4:4).

Acts 19 is THE up close picture of Paul ministering to win souls at Ephesus. It shows just what he SAID then also what he did.

Of course salvation is a sovereign act. When have I ever said it was not? God purposed before the world was to save who he was going to save and then HOW he would save them.

We see that demonstrated perfectly in Acts 19. It unfolds EXACTLY like Acts 2:38. He is the one who brought about their repentance and faith. Water baptism is HIS OPERATION just like Paul said in Col. 2. It is NOT the work of men.

The Holy Spirit is SENT BY HIM to indwell a believer to sanctify, guide into all truth, and give power for living the life and being a witness to it.

You need not persuade me of predestination. I have believed in it for many years.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Acts 19 is THE up close picture of Paul ministering to win souls at Ephesus. It shows just what he SAID then also what he did.

Of course salvation is a sovereign act. When have I ever said it was not? God purposed before the world was to save who he was going to save and then HOW he would save them.

We see that demonstrated perfectly in Acts 19. It unfolds EXACTLY like Acts 2:38. He is the one who brought about their repentance and faith. Water baptism is HIS OPERATION just like Paul said in Col. 2. It is NOT the work of men.

The Holy Spirit is SENT BY HIM to indwell a believer to sanctify, guide into all truth, and give power for living the life and being a witness to it.

You need not persuade me of predestination. I have believed in it for many years.

I know, Michael, we're probably not that far apart either... but again, I think it's important to emphasize the "sovereign" element first. It was "sovereign grace" that saved the Ephesians (and us!).

And then, the rest of our lives began to unfold as we "rose" into the newness of life.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by pelathais

I know, Michael, we're probably not that far apart either... but again, I think it's important to emphasize the "sovereign" element first. It was "sovereign grace" that saved the Ephesians (and us!).

And then, the rest of our lives began to unfold as we "rose" into the newness of life.

No one can be saved except by the sovereign grace of God. He draws men to do all he has said they must do to be saved. He orchestrates it all. Yet we go though the motions. We do what he says we must do. If we do not DO what he says to do we are not being saved by HIM.

[Adino]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Yes, I deny that scripture teaches a conversion of the heart is "adequate obedience to the Gospel".

The point of Romans 10:1 - "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved."

"The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree." Acts 5:30

"And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:.." Acts 10:39; Acts 13:24-52

Their belief and faith in Jesus Christ needed to be established before they could obey the Gospel. If "having a heart converted to faith in Christ IS how one 'obeys the Gospel", John the Baptist would not have preached a "baptism of repentance", Peter would not have preached what he did on the Day of Pentecost, and God would not have told Cornelius to send for Peter.

To say that what Peter preached is not the Gospel but our response to the Gospel is not totally accurate, IMO. What Peter preached, on the Day of Pentecost, is just as much a part of the Death, Burial and Resurrection of Jesus Christ. I don't believe you can separate the two - the belief and the obedience or response to.

Please respond to the Scriptures listed, Bro... The Scriptures I listed speak of men 1) hearing the 'report' [notitia] 2) the heart understanding the report [assensus] 3) the heart converting [fudicia] and being healed. Knowledge (notitia) + mental assent (assensus) + trust (fiducia) = FAITH . The faith which came by hearing the word/report brought healing. Healing came with conversion. Do you deny that passing from unbelief to faith is a conversion?

I could approach this another way as well....

Acts 5:32 states that the Holy Ghost is given to those who 'obey' God. Cornelius was given the Holy Ghost in Acts 10. Tell me what Cornelius DID to obey God AFTER he heard the Gospel from Paul?

Paul said in Acts 15:7 that it was by his mouth the Gentiles were to hear the word of the Gospel and believe.

He goes on to say in 15:8 that God 'which knoweth the hearts' gave the Gentiles the Holy Ghost as witness to their belief in the Gospel.

Since the Spirit is given ONLY to those who OBEY God, I ask again... After he heard the Gospel from Paul, what did Cornelius DO as adequate obedience to God in order to fulfil the requirement for Spirit reception? What obedience to the Gospel did he do that resulted in Spirit reception?

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Adino

Please respond to the Scriptures listed, Bro... The Scriptures I listed speak of men 1) hearing the 'report' [notitia] 2) the heart understanding the report [assensus] 3) the heart converting [fudicia] and being healed. Knowledge (notitia) + mental assent (assensus) + trust (fiducia) = FAITH . The faith which came by hearing the word/report brought healing. Healing came with conversion. Do you deny that passing from unbelief to faith is a conversion?

I could approach this another way as well....

Acts 5:32 states that the Holy Ghost is given to those who 'obey' God. Cornelius was given the Holy Ghost in Acts 10. Tell me what Cornelius DID to obey God AFTER he heard the Gospel from Paul?

Paul said in Acts 15:7 that it was by his mouth the Gentiles were to hear the word of the Gospel and believe.

He goes on to say in 15:8 that God 'which knoweth the hearts' gave the Gentiles the Holy Ghost as witness to their belief in the Gospel.

Since the Spirit is given ONLY to those who OBEY God, I ask again... After he heard the Gospel from Paul, what did Cornelius DO as adequate obedience to God in order to fulfil the requirement for Spirit reception? What obedience to the Gospel did he do that resulted in Spirit reception?

Adino,
I've stated the basis of what I believe on this thread. If I expanded on that any further I would only be saying the same things over and over only in more detail. I remember talking with you on this subject at NFCF. Neither of us has changed what we believe. So, really, what's the point? There is no point. LOL!

[Adino]

No problem, Bro. I'll let you off the hook

Q: What did Cornelius do in response to hearing the Gospel which brought Spirit reception?

A: Cornelius believed the Gospel. It was his obedience of faith which brought spiritual healing.

God bless...

[Esther]

I have not read this entire thread only bits and pieces and don't have time to read all of it at this time, so if this thought has already been expressed then I say that is good.

Without the cross there would be no salvation. That was God's part, not ours.

Jesus told Nicodemus you must be born of the water and the spirit to make heaven. (paraphased)

There are a number of things WE must do to be saved. We must believe that Jesus is the Christ. etc.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Adino

No problem, Bro. I'll let you off the hook

Q: What did Cornelius do in response to hearing the Gospel which brought Spirit reception?

A: Cornelius believed the Gospel. It was his obedience of faith which brought spiritual healing.

God bless...

Adino,
His faith did cause him to obey the Gospel that Peter preached. He obviously had already repented. He then, obediently, was baptized in Jesus Name. Nothing happened with Cornelius that wasn't preached by Peter. Cornelius still had to obey the command to be baptized.

What about when Paul passed through Ephesus and found certain disciples asking them - "Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost." (Acts 19:2)

Acts 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. (4) Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. (5) When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. (6) And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.


These guys were presented the Gospel, had to have repented and were subsequently baptized. They were then filled with the Holy Ghost because they believed and obeyed.

So, yes, in both cases, the Word is true - "....and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him." Acts 5:32

Trying to use Cornelius, alone, because he first received the Holy Ghost is not going to line up with all other accounts. Some are filled before and some after. God already knowing Cornelius' heart sent for Peter to expound on the whole matter of the Gospel. Cornelius' heart was being prepared ahead of time and I know that was God's doing because He most certainly wanted to open a very wide door to the Gentiles. Nothing could have happened to confirm that more - (Acts 10).

[Adino]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Adino,
His faith did cause him to obey the Gospel that Peter preached. He obviously had already repented. He then, obediently, was baptized in Jesus Name. Nothing happened with Cornelius that wasn't preached by Peter. Cornelius still had to obey the command to be baptized.

What about when Paul passed through Ephesus and found certain disciples asking them - "Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost." (Acts 19:2)

Acts 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. (4) Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. (5) When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. (6) And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.


These guys were presented the Gospel, had to have repented and were subsequently baptized. They were then filled with the Holy Ghost because they believed and obeyed.

So, yes, in both cases, the Word is true - "....and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him." Acts 5:32

Trying to use Cornelius, alone, because he first received the Holy Ghost is not going to line up with all other accounts. Some are filled before and some after. God already knowing Cornelius' heart sent for Peter to expound on the whole matter of the Gospel. Cornelius' heart was being prepared ahead of time and I know that was God's doing because He most certainly wanted to open a very wide door to the Gentiles. Nothing could have happened to confirm that more - (Acts 10).

You missed the point. Cornelius received the Spirit only after he obeyed. Only those who obey God are given the Spirit. Cornelius could not OBEY the Gospel until he had heard it. Cornelius had not heard the Gospel until Paul told him in Acts 10:40-43.

Between the time he heard the Gospel and received the Spirit, Cornelius did nothing but believe. Since God gives the Spirit ONLY to those who obey, it must be concluded that a heart of faith itself was sufficient obedience.

If it was sufficient obedience for God to give the Spirit as witness to Cornelius' faith in the Gospel...... why not for Pressing?