The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

[mfblume]

I preached last Sunday on the cross. I love the preaching of the cross.

Elisha passed by Shunnem many times, and a woman there noted to her husband that they should build an extension on their home for a room for the prophet to rest in when he would pass by. Elisha came and took opportunity and rested at their home.

This speaks of the cross. Elisha stands as Jesus Christ in this story. Christ laid down his life and was laid to rest in the tomb. Sleep in the bible stands as death. So the place where Elisha slept stands as the tomb of Christ.

The prophet then prophesied about the Sunnemite woman having a son. This is like the work of the cross being followed by the promise of children born into the kingdom!

The woman bears a child at the foretold time and the child grows. Time comes when the boy is old enough to work with his father and reap crops. This stands for the sou8l born again who is mature enough to start working for the Lord and win the lost. Reaping.

An affliction attacks the boy's head, and he hollers, "My head my head!"

When the enemy attacks us, it is in our MINDS and THOUGHTS. People backslide due to attacks in their minds. Paul taught about casting down IMAGINATIONS (a "mind issue) that war against the KNOWLEDGE (a "mind" issue again) of God.

They took the boy to his mother, as the mother stands for the church.

The boy died on her knees, and she laid him in Elisha's bed where he slept.

The church teaches people that even after they are saved, they need to go back to the place where Jesus laid in Death. And by going back there, they need to identify in their hearts with Christ's death all over again, just as when they were first saved. They need to go over the truth of the cross in their minds when the enemy attacks, since the attack is in the mind and the mind must be renewed and aligned with truth so as to cast down the attacks in the mind from the devil.

The woman leaves the boy alone in the room. The church teaches people to learn to be alone with the Lord in their time of renewing their minds and aligning their minds with truth so as to defeat the attack of the enemy and overcome.

Elisha returns and enters the room and shuts the door behind him. When we renew our minds to the truths of what occurred in our lives when we were united to Christ in His death, back to the place where he laid, the Lord comes in and something wonderful occurs.

Elisha put his mouth on the boy's mouth, his eyes on the boy's eyes and his hands on the boy's hands. This stands for IDENTIFICATION WITH CHRIST IN HIS DEATH to the extent that we realize HE DIED AS US when He died.

He took our place to such an extent that His eyes that closed in death must be considered as our eyes. His mouth that became silent in death were as good as our mouths. His hands that sopped touching and lay lifeless were as good as our hands. He died AS US.

That is how we first got saved. Identification with Christ in His death which occurred in baptism into His death, as noted in Romans 6:3. THIS IS HOW BAPTISM FITS THE PICTURE. It is identification with Christ in his death.

And we need to go over this in our hearts everytime the enemy attacks us, hopefully until it is so ingrained in us that our understanding of this remains intact and we overcome attacks from even getting us down again.

THE CROSS IS FOR FAR MORE THAN getting us saved. We need its truth for the rest of our lives in this world, and in this way we claim the blood, as the old timers used to say. Pursuing this understanding in our minds when attacked is actually what they mean by claiming the blood.

And then the boy sneezed seven times.

Sneezing is physically the clearance from the head of blockages and obstructions. Spiritually, sneezing would stand for clearing the thoughts and lies and misconceptions the devil used in inflicting our minds to overcome us. And by identification with Christ in His death during these times of attack, these obstructions are PERFECTLY (Number 7 stands for completion) cleared out!

THE CROSS ALONE SAVES AND CONTINUES TO SAVE!

(NOTE: AS MUCH AS THE CROSS SAVES BY OUR REPEATED IDENTIFICATION WITH CHRIST IN THE WAY DESCRIBED ABOVE, WHILE THE ACT OF IDENTIFICATION IS NOT SALVATION IN ITSELF, OUR BAPTISM THAT OCCURRED WHEN WE FIRST WERE SAVED FROM SIN IS LIKEWISE NOT A "SALVATION BY WORKS" EFFORT.)

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Good grief, are you this long-winded when you preach?? I don't drink coffee, but you're making me want to!

Yes, I believe in repentance but in the true sense of the word, which is "To Turn" which is exactly what someone does when they "believe in their heart and confess with their mouth that Jesus is Lord and that God has raised them from the dead." So of course, I believe in repentance. I don't care for the term "Step", but if you wanna call it that, fine.

I just cannot process your theology that the Holy Spirit is a "gift", yet at the same time, a "requirement". And I also really, really struggle with your theology that one can improve oneself and thereby, receive this "gift." My kids have never "earned" any of their "gifts." To me, that's edging into serious and dangerous heresy. You went to great lengths (almost beyond my attention span) to justify your stance, but at the end of the day, you're believing that you can improve yourself and better position yourself to receive salvation. This is a LOUD violation of "Not of Works" (hey, that'd make a good ID), lest any man should boast." I can't boast in this. I've done NOTHING to better position myself.

And you still haven't explained how some just receive this "gift" (tongues) the first time they walk into a church and some have to work on some things. Doesn't seem fair to me.

Do you have any other explanation for those that "tarry" for months/years for the Holy Spirit than, "They need to get rid of sin in their life"? And if that's the only explanation for the "tarrying", what is your prooftext for that belief? Who in the bible ever "tarried for the Holy Ghost", what is the scriptural principle for someone "tarrying for the Holy Ghost"?

SO you are saying salvation and eternal life have no conditions? They are gifts that are COMPLETELY UNCONDITIONAL and UNMERITED?? The key is to the issue at hand is the proper term is more "offering" than what we consider "gift" God offers salvation freely to those whom take upon his yoke by faith/proper response.

Jesus clearly says that Eternal life is to them that DO his commandment. This was my point earlier concerning is obedience forensic or intrinsic to salvation and eternal life. You clearly see it only a "forensic" when Jesus and others say it is intrinsic which would mean salvation is based upon conditions met by contract.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Good grief, are you this long-winded when you preach?? I don't drink coffee, but you're making me want to!

Are you kidding? I can hardly get things out in an hour! lol

Yes, I believe in repentance but in the true sense of the word, which is "To Turn" which is exactly what someone does when they "believe in their heart and confess with their mouth that Jesus is Lord and that God has raised them from the dead." So of course, I believe in repentance. I don't care for the term "Step", but if you wanna call it that, fine.

I am only going by the terms that folks on this forum have used. But that repentance you believe in is no more a work for salvation than baptism is.

I just cannot process your theology that the Holy Spirit is a "gift", yet at the same time, a "requirement".

Why? Righteousness is a gift, and also a requirement!

Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

And I also really, really struggle with your theology that one can improve oneself and thereby, receive this "gift."

One CANNOT improve oneself. That is my point. Improving oneself is making oneself righteous. All we can do is empty ourselves of what is wrong. But we cannot give ourselves anything that is good.

The problem is that, I think, you are trying to find fault in what I am saying rather than actually hearing me out. personally, I think you do not want to agree with me, which makes you find SOMETHING wrong in my words, so you remain confused in my words when you cannot find something.

My kids have never "earned" any of their "gifts."

See? this is what I mean. I never said anything about earning anything. But5 you are putting words in my mouth at every turn. First you say it is improving oneself to be baptized, and now you say we are earning righteousness.

Anyway, you are right about earning gifts! But if they had something in their hands that hindered you from handing them a gift, they cannot hold your gift.

To me, that's edging into serious and dangerous heresy.

Of course, it is, but I do not believe what you claimed I do.

You went to great lengths (almost beyond my attention span) to justify your stance, but at the end of the day, you're believing that you can improve yourself and better position yourself to receive salvation.

NO I am not saying that. Had you read my words with more intention o n actually getting my point, than pushing your patience to the limit, you would have seen that good bro.

This is a LOUD violation of "Not of Works" (hey, that'd make a good ID), lest any man should boast." I can't boast in this. I've done NOTHING to better position myself.

What does repentance do?

And you still haven't explained how some just receive this "gift" (tongues) the first time they walk into a church and some have to work on some things. Doesn't seem fair to me.

You still have not acknowledged that no one can speak in tongues unless God gives the utterance.

Do you have any other explanation for those that "tarry" for months/years for the Holy Spirit than, "They need to get rid of sin in their life"? And if that's the only explanation for the "tarrying", what is your prooftext for that belief? Who in the bible ever "tarried for the Holy Ghost", what is the scriptural principle for someone "tarrying for the Holy Ghost"?

I do not have prooftexts. Do you know hat a prooftext is? I said that was MY experience. And I may not even know all the reasons why others do not receive the Spirit. The fact is, God gives the Spirit, and we cannot contrive it.

Until you actually look for good in my words, you will not get my words, for it seems clear you are looking for fault and not actually hearing me.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

SO you are saying salvation and eternal life have no conditions? They are gifts that are COMPLETELY UNCONDITIONAL and UNMERITED??

Abso-flippin-lutely!! (Jeffrey's having an effect on me)

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Abso-flippin-lutely!! (Jeffrey's having an effect on me)

Wrong, You believe you have to repent and believe. The only ones who believe unconditional salvation are the universal reconciliationists who think no one need so much as repent or believe to be saved.

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by mfblume

. . .


One CANNOT improve oneself. . . .

Dude! Speak for yourself! Seriously!

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by Timmy

Dude! Speak for yourself! Seriously!

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I do not have prooftexts. Do you know hat a prooftext is? I said that was MY experience. And I may not even know all the reasons why others do not receive the Spirit. The fact is, God gives the Spirit, and we cannot contrive it.
.

Pride is another reason. From my own experience, I was holding onto something that was a matter of vanity and pride. When I let that go, I received His spirit. I didn't know, at first, that thing was hindering my serious dedication to giving ALL of myself to God. I was sitting and reading one night and the thought came to me so strong that I knew what the hindrance was. And He, knowing my heart, knew that I didn't want anything between us. I saw that after the fact.

When you come to repentance, you know the things that you are doing are wrong. We all know basic sin. Some other things in our lives, while we don't call them sin, can keep us from totally giving Him our ALL. We are not always aware that some things could hider us and cause us to become the various grounds discussed in Mark 4, IMO.

Being that all are issues of the heart, I believe that God, in His gracious mercy and judgment, gives every man an opportunity by the Gospel. I believe that some are filled because God knows that His Spirit will lead them out of some things they are holding on to, things that are not necessarily sin, but could cause their walk not to deepen. Others, like me, may not have possibly grown if, at the outset, something was between us. Again, that was my experience and understanding. And, again, it's the heart that God knows and deals with on an individual basis.

That is why I am against various terms we try to use in order to explain our opinion of what we believe is a process in the Bible. For instance, Jeffrey had mentioned "crises experience" which Pentecostals seem to have inherited from John Wesley. This "crises experience" is tied in with the "second blessing" or "tarrying" for the Holy Ghost. The idea being a period of time where a person is drawing closer to God, after repentance and baptism, in order to be filled with God's Spirit.

I don't mind when we use general terms like Eschatology and Soteriology, but when we come up with words on our own to describe our point of view in relation to the Bible, such as, "crises experience", "Jesus bomb", "one-step" and "two-step", I generally draw a line.

"Crisis experience", obviously, is not a good choice of words as it doesn't apply to everyone. Cornelius being one example. It starts with belief and repentance. We don't have to come up with terms in order to explain these things. It takes away from the beauty and power of His Word, IMO.

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Abso-flippin-lutely!! (Jeffrey's having an effect on me)

If that is the case you have to believe in antinomianism, and OSAS as

1) Salvation would not even require faith as salvation is just handed and forced upon you.
2) You make a mockery of Gen 15:6 and what "justice" is.
3) You make a mockery of Abiding and doing his commandments to "continue" to abide and be considered his friend.

Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.
Joh 15:6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.
Joh 15:7 If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
Joh 15:8 By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples.
Joh 15:9 As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love.
Joh 15:10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.
Joh 15:11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.
Joh 15:12 "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.
Joh 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.
Joh 15:14 You are my friends if you do what I command you.
Joh 15:15 No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you.
Joh 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.
Joh 15:17 These things I command you, so that you will love one another.


4) You ignore and mock that salvation comes at a cost

Mat 13:45 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant in search of fine pearls,
Mat 13:46 who, on finding one pearl of great value, went and sold all that he had and bought it.
Mat 13:47 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was thrown into the sea and gathered fish of every kind.

5) You negate that salvation is via contract to obtain life...

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

6) Counting the cost to obtain is not really counting the cost. As ot you no cost must be measured as simple belief or agreement HAS NO RISK OF LOSS OR COST!

Luk 14:27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
Luk 14:28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
Luk 14:29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
Luk 14:30 Saying, This man began to build, and[B] was not able to finish. [/B
]Luk 14:31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?
Luk 14:32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.
Luk 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

This is not about one moment but the life of a believer of forsaking!

You are saying that without fullfilling his purpose you stay and abide unto salvation.

Luk 14:34 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned?
Luk 14:35 It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

When you lose your pupose (commandments) you lose who you are and are cast out as meaningless.

You are saying you can do so without cost IN THE BEGINNING and througout.

You make God's righteousness/justice slothful in that we would acquit the unrighteous...

Pro 17:15 The one who acquits the guilty and the one who condemns the innocent both of them are an abomination to the LORD.

Salvation would not be to those who obey as it would be without ANY relationship to obedience.

Heb 5:9 And by being perfected in this way, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him

One can be without any righteousness and be considered WED to Christ for the garment that we wear we have made ready with our deeds...

Mat 22:11 But when the king came in to see the wedding guests, he saw a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes.
Mat 22:12 And he said to him, 'Friend, how did you get in here without wedding clothes?' But he had nothing to say.8
Mat 22:13 Then the king said to his attendants, 'Tie him up hand and foot and throw him into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth!'
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen."

Rev 19:7 Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready;
Rev 19:8 it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure"-- for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.

Salvation is a purchase from the only one who can offer it. Jesus Christ the righteous! We enter contract to obtain by becoming his servants and negate all else. For a double minded man is unstable in his ways and we must plow straight for narrow is the way. Many agonize to enter but cannot as many are called but few chosen.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

If that is the case you have to believe in antinomianism, and OSAS as

1) Salvation would not even require faith as salvation is just handed and forced upon you.
2) You make a mockery of Gen 15:6 and what "justice" is.
3) You make a mockery of Abiding and doing his commandments to "continue" to abide and be considered his friend.

First, he's about as antinomian as you are a pure, bona fide legalist.

Second, where did he say salvation did not require faith? If I recall, that's his entire argument.

Third, I think our major disagreement is how you see Abraham's "being made right with God" and your absurd claim that Abraham's reckoned righteousness is not salvific (I'll get back to that later).

Finally, no one makes a mockery of doing his commandments, Legalist. You guys obsess with this. We are talking about initiation. Getting in the family. It's a faith family. That's the point.