correct his "faith' is judged.
(Not that this doesn't have technical merit, but why do you use language Paul did not so often? Over and over again you say faith. In the case of us before God, we are already found guilt. Our actions can't be further judged. We are GUILTY. We are justified through Jesus.
The reason I use judge all the time because that is what happens. Everything we do has judgment or a "reactive result" Breathing air has a judgment on the body. Our actions have judgment before God and law is always there. back to the subject...
I can't even agree with you here and your use of judgement in such critical ways. If we get what we deserve by our actions, we all deserve death. You included!
1)
Gen 15:6 is not about sin
Right with God has nothing to do with sin????
2)
Gen 15:6 is not directly about salvation
more head scratching. Then you can take salvation, I'll take being made right before God.
3)
Gen 15:6 IS ABOUT God doing justice to Abrahams action.
WRONG. Paul's entire point to use Abraham was not his action, it was his faith. We go circles on this. You get playful with the text, but Paul wasn't using Abram as an example for how perfectly obedient and upstanding of a guy he was... he used him as an example of faith.
4)
Gen 15:6 is not about covenant.
Wrong again.
5)
Gen 12 you state a covenant is there, then turn around and say it's in
Gen 15:6 you can't have it both ways.
Why can't you? Why is everything an either/or???
6) What God wants to do and coming INTO actual covenant are two different things.
?
7)
Gen 15 clearly shows God coming INTO the land covenant though God discussed what he "wanted" to do. It was not covenant yet.
Hmmmm...
8) God discusses in
Gen 15:3-4 what he "wants" to do and explains to Abraham his "plans". It takes following to be faithful and to bring it to completion. As faith is defined by the context of what is said and the resulting action.
Wow. That's very creative, TL. It was accounted to him as righteousness. That's pretty much a present reality, not a carrot "if you can be a perfect little boy you'll get this." It's a GIFT! Undeserved. Freely given.
9)
Gen 12 Abraham is told to move and he does so. Once stopped because of his action he asks God "how" to possess... God makes covenant by asking him to do and by doing He makes covenant concerning the land which would go unto his seed. Even though it would go unto his seed ,the multiplying the seed and promise was another aspect not yet realized.
You compartmentalize covenant, and I find it interesting I admit. But those categories aren't in the story. Remember to read this as a story not a contract. It's a WONDERFUL story. A guy deserving death gets chosen, by faith he believes God and its accounted to him as righteousness. This is the story of Abram's life. Out of that faith comes obedience, but it's faith nonetheless that reckons him righteousness.
10) Abraham had not obtained a covenant toward his seed multiplying...
Explain.
11) we see the consistent pattern of God asking and Abraham doing and the result is covenant again in
Gen 17....
What we see is reassurance along the way from him first promise. "Go and I will show you a city" this it the movement of the story. Along the way, in victories of faith, Abram is assured, and more details of the promise are made clear to us.
(If God was so tit-for-tat with covenant, and his faithfulness to the covenant are dependent on us, then he would not have sent His Son to die. He did so because he is faithful to covenant and determined to find a way for us all. What he guaranteed by faith, was fulfilled in Jesus, and is still accessible by faith.
Gen 17:1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am God Almighty;
walk before me, and be blameless,
Gen 17:2 that I may make my covenant between me and you, and may multiply you greatly."
Do you know the meaning of the word blameless? Are you blameless? Interested in how you interpret this verse. Again, you read this as a linear contract and not as a story.
Notice it is STILL future of what God wanted to do. It is called a progressive covenantry. One leads to another. He speaks of the future covenant yet speaks of being under covenant. How is this covenant again brought about? By him doing just like before.
First, this is not the first time God says these promises to Abram. How you get around that, I don't know. Second, you make a good point about "may" -- the NIV says this:
I will confirm my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your numbers."
In other words, circumcision, first introduced here, is a way God is confirming his covenant. This, by the way, contradicts your plans to somehow say Abram earned the covenant for the first time in Gen 22.
With that said, are you familiar with Paul's already/not yet theology? You can probably guess where I'd go with that.
What is the covenant he is supposed to walk TO obtain "that I may make" in the future?
Gen 17:9 And God said unto Abraham, And as for thee, thou shalt keep my covenant, thou, and thy seed after thee throughout their generations.
Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee: every male among you shall be circumcised.
Is this the covenant in
Gen 22? No! It is the covenant to obtain "that I may make" a covenant. Because God says he wants to do something doesn't mean it's covenant. God judges and will be faithful if you are faithful to his Word. Just like today. We have covenant to receive the promises yet we have not OBTAINED YET the covenant/fulfillment of eternal life. When we are judged faithful, we obtain that covenant of promise.
What translation are you using?
Then God said to Abraham, "As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised.
This IS MY COVENANT, not someday I'll give you a covenant. It's the same story. He's revealing more. The journey began with faith, a destination unknown. God is pulling back layers and showing Abram the future as we travel with him. As a demonstration of his faith, he is walking right before God. This is certainly neither to say that Abram was perfect -- lest we remember his lying about his wife, definitely an issue of unbelief. But God is faithful, and Abram, though perhaps hiccups in faith, kept the faith. God's plan is revealed here for Israel, in fact. Through YOU, this is how it will work, through your generations. Make sure they know me. Make sure the trust me. That's critical. As a sign of that covenant, here's circumcision. Keep this going. (Israel turned it into ethnic elitism instead)
Abraham OBTAINED by obedience that which by God's grace he offered....
?"THAT I MAY MAKE" why would the seed come about and be blessed....
Gen 22:14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovah-jireh. As it is said to this day, In the mount of Jehovah it shall be provided.
Gen 22:15 And the angel of Jehovah called unto Abraham a second time out of heaven,
Gen 22:16 and said,
By myself have I sworn, saith Jehovah,
because thou hast done this thing, and hast
not withheld thy son, thine only son,
Gen 22:17 that in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heavens, and as the sand which is upon the seashore. And thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies.
LANGUAGE SOUNDS AWFUL FAMILIAR. TL!!!
Gen 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed. Because thou hast obeyed my voice.
This is the covenant "that I may make" God tells Isaac WHY it came about. Was it mental assent of promise which one was justified or the WORKS that justified Abraham by faith response?
Friend, it's backwards. Mental ascent does not equal faith. So quit postulating that. I've conceded that I wont' call you a BR, to you can put away the mental ascent game. Faith and believing are deeper than cognitive chambers of reality.
Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
So Gen 22 wasn't even the covenant, it wasn't until 26 now?
TO OBTAIN AND INHERIT LAND PROMISE!
To bring upon and confirm the promise by covenant are two different things.
concerning Paul.... he is talking about a certain aspect how a action of faith is "judged/considered" thus one stands turned to God and his heart be acceptable unto God. Abraham was considered righteous not simply by circumcision but well before circumcision. Was circumcision a righteous response? Yes but it in itself was not righteousing but God's judgment of action is what del
Where do you get this from? Curious. "judged/considered?" "certian aspect? You said it and then backed up on it. He was considered righteous BEFORE the action. cares right or just. Not our works speaking "judgment" outside of God.
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