The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by notofworks

••If my "accusing" is too strong, I'll just simply quote what you said:

"I personally know from experience that I sought the Spirit baptism for six months. The trouble was, that I knew I was not letting go of some sins, and when I let go of them I got the Spirit right away! I can only go by my experience. It is not hard. Letting go of sin may be what is hard." (Page 69, post 682)

I think that says it all. Mike there's NOTHING hard about getting saved.

Brother, lol, the way of a transgressor is hard. Not the way of salvation. I refused to acknowledge some sins as sins. I said that if something is wrong with what I am doing, then when God fills me with His Spirit He can tell me then. I had idols in my life. I refused to let them go.

And for you to take my words and claim I am legalistic is for you to say one does not need to get rid of idols in one's life in order for God to bless them.

Unfortunately, teaching people there is no need to let go of their idols, which is basically what you are saying to me since that was my problem, is an all too common trend in many religious circles today.

So, I think you may now better realize where I am coming from when I said what you quoted.

Jesus has done everything in our place, He did everything that was hard and now we walk freely in His grace. he bore the sins of the world, took the crushing blows of Calvary, and Gethsemane, so that we can simply believe and be saved.

He did not let go of our idols for us, so that we have no letting go to perform.

And baptism is no more a work than repentance, since it is how we approach His grace and receive from His grace. It does not EARN grace nor WORK for it. Baptism is no more a work for salvation than walking up to daddy and receiving a gift from him is a work to earn that gift. Baptism to me is just walking up to receive a gift. Walking to get a gift is not a work that earns a gift.

Jesus said his "yoke is EASY and His burden is light." Mike, nothing about this is hard. It's been made very simple by the cross of Jesus Christ.

I agree. But you distorted my words, for whatever reason, though I think unintentionally, and claimed I said something I never said. You misinterpreted what I meant. I meant that letting go of sin is losing your idols willingly, which I was not doing. Maybe the idolatry example can better show you what I mean.

FURTHERMORE....it is the power of the Holy Spirit that enables us to rid ourselves of sinful habits.

IF WE ARE WILLING.

Galatians 5:16 tells us that we walk in the Spirit and the result is, we do not fulfill the desires of the flesh. You're telling me that you found power outside the Holy Spirit to rid yourself of sin. But in reality, the opposite is true. Christ fills us and in so doing, gives us the power to avoid sinful pitfalls.

No, I am not telling you I had power outside the Spirit to rid myself of sin. The truth of the matter was that God had all the power I would ever need, but I WAS NOT WANTING THAT POWER to rid me of particular sins. My will was not in agreement with what God said was sin. Only when one ACKNOWLEDGES what God says is sin, will one ALLOW the power of God to rid it from us.

If you disagree with this, then we might as well agree to disagree, since I doubt we can ever agree on this in that case.

[mfblume]

One more thing, notofoworks,

Repentance IS A WORK. You have never delineated why helping an old lady across the street is a work but repentance is not. They are both works. But one may be done to award oneself righteousness, while the other is not done for that purpose at all.

The reason you listed helping old ladies across the street, is because it is commonly known that some people think doing good deeds gets them the glory, and that God will weigh out those good deeds compared with the bad, and if there are more good than bad, they hope to get saved.

That is done without any connection to the cross of Jesus and any faith towards God whatsoever.

But that is error since it is the concept of salvation by works in order to do something to make oneself righteous.

When I asked you WHY repentance was not a work but helping old ladies across the street, you did not answer me. It's not enough to say walking ladies across the street is a work and repentance is not. lol. WHY is one a work and the other not?

Originally Posted by notofworks

Repentance is not a "Work". It is simply an acceptance of God's place as leader of one's life. It is a turn. A "Work" is the action of good works in one's life, such as helping enough old ladies across the street, giving food to hungry people, working to eliminate sin from one's life....those are works. Turning to Christ and allowing Him to lead one's life is NOT a work. It is a decision and the trust to allow Christ to do the work!

How a "turn" is not a work is beyond me. lolol. A work is an action whether it is the action of turning or not. IT IS A WORK. Period. You do not turn automatically without EFFORT> If something requires EFFORT, IT IS A WORK. If something is done by us that God does not do for us, then it is a work. But if you insist turning is not an action and is something we do that God does not do for us, and is somehow therefore not a work, then you and I are on two different planets. lol

Despite your claims to the contrary, you did not differentiate as to WHY repentance is not a work and walking old ladies across the street is. You just claimed one is a work and one is not. All you said was "A "Work" is the action of good works in one's life, such as helping enough old ladies across the street, giving food to hungry people, working to eliminate sin from one's life....those are works. Turning to Christ and allowing Him to lead one's life is NOT a work."

How is repentance not a good work in one's life? Is it GOOD to repent? Yes. Is it done with one's life? Yes. Repentance is a good work done in one's life. How is turning to God and letting Him lead our lives not a good work? Is it good to turn our lives to God? Yes. Is it done in one's life? Yes. It is a good work done in one's life! Does God turn us around and we exert no effort to do so? no. We exert the effort.

You do indeed have some sort of REASON you claim repentance is not a work, while walking old ladies across the street is, but you are not writing it out. Your explanation of WHY is not a WHY at all. That is why I said you made empty claims without proving them. You only CLAIMED walking ladies is a good work and CLAIMED turning to God is not. Why, though? WHY WHY WHY?

Your problem is in not realizing that A WORK is anything don e BY OUR EFFORT THAT GOD DOES NOT DO FOR US. God does not MAKE YOU turn. You CHOOSE TO TURN as much as YOU CHOOSE to walk an old lady across the street. And I think you would truly agree with me if you actually got my point when I say that ANY EFFORT WE CHOOSE TO DO, including repentance, IS A WORK, but only when those works are done to make us righteous by sheer virtue of doing that work, without any reliance on the justifying Cross of Christ, is salvation by works.

In other words, if A HEATHEN KNEW NOTHING ABOUT THE CROSS, and heard about ones need to TURN TO CHRIST, having never heard of Jesus dying and rising again to make atonement for us, having no faith in the cross' salvation and without any concept of seeing God rescue him'her, and turns to Christ expecting to go to heaven, that turning would be salvation by works.

Again, and I am ending my part in our fine chats together, you and I, on this subject after this, since I think we are simply at loggerheads forevermore if we still do not agree lol. ... but the bible teaches salvation by works are turns to Christ, walking ladies across to street, or dressing a certain way in order to obtain righteousness WITHOUT GOD LOOKING TO THE WORKS OF THE CROSS ALONE TO MAKE US RIGHTEOUS.


Anyway, notofworks, don't walk away like an angel having done nothing out of the way, bro. I explained again and again that I do not believe salvation by works, and I explained why, and that I do not believe anyone earns their salvation and you continued to accuse me of preaching it as though you never read my explanations as to why I am not, you passive aggressionist, you. .

{PS the reason I write so much, is that I saw how you took a statement I made about tongues and thought I meant tongues is righteousness. So to avoid you making such mistakes of my words, I think of every angle to explain myself lest you do that again. )

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by pelathais

It's honestly a bit difficult to pin you down on this - and I haven't really even concerned myself with hanging any kind of tag on you anyway.

However: If some one were to say that water baptism is "essential" to the New Birth, then they are at least a "baptismal regenerationalist" in part and maybe in whole, such as the Campbellite groups.

Campbellites hold to the idea that God imparts the Spirit at the time a believer is baptized.

Thanks for your clarification. I honestly thought you were slurring me with accusations of catholic baptismal doctrine.

But I personally disagree entirely with your definition of what baptismal regeneration involves. And to prove it to you, which may throw another wrench altogether in your assessment of my thoughts... (Whatever... matters not to me.) let me say that my concept of baptism as part of salvation involves the all-important element of FAITH THAT WORKS. And I believe this so strongly, that if someone repented and agreed to be baptized, indicating to God a real and present "FAITH THAT WORKS" (God knows the intents of the heart), and such a person DIED before getting baptized, THAT PERSON IS SAVED.

And before you throw out a huge, YOU ARE A ONE STEPPER (!!) accusation, let me say that if the person DID NOT DIE and DOES NOT GET BAPTIZED, they are not saved. They did not have the OBEDIENT HEART of FAITH THAT WORKS. It is the HEART INTENT that shows God if the person has FAITH THAT WORKS. And since God saw the heart fully ready to obey, that shows the "faith that works" was indeed present in such a life.

And let me give another scenario. I always leave these things up to God and leave Him to judge the issue when dealing with gray areas that the Word does not talk about, but my best educated guess would be that if someone never had anyone tell them about baptism, and truly learned of Jesus and the true concept of how the work of the cross saves, and genuinely repented, not getting baptized (totally due to lack of awareness of it), God knows if their heart WOULD GET BAPTIZED SHOULD THEY LEARN OF IT, they are saved if they have the heart to indeed get baptized had they learned of it.


Now, try to chew that one up and spit it out.

I think you agree, but the issue is far more complicated than good men like notofworks think it is.

People can throw around, "Yeah, but if God saw they WOULD get baptized, He would not allow them to die," or "God would send someone to a heart whom He knew would get baptized had they known of it." But I am not dealing with those sorts of hypotheticals, but the hypotheticals that concern the state of the heart and how God sees it in relation to the works that faith produces. I do not believe an iota of baptismal regeneration because it is done in that concept in order to to create faith.

[revrandy]

I'm thankful I repented of my sins, was baptized in Jesus Name and was filled with the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues...like the thousands who have had the same experience beginning at the day of Pentecost until now...

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by revrandy

I'm thankful I repented of my sins, was baptized in Jesus Name and was filled with the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues...like the thousands who have had the same experience beginning at the day of Pentecost until now...

I'm thankful for that same experience!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by revrandy

I'm thankful I repented of my sins, was baptized in Jesus Name and was filled with the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues...like the thousands who have had the same experience beginning at the day of Pentecost until now...

One thousand amens!

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Bro notofworks,

Righteousness is a complex issue whether anyone agrees or not. I have studied it out and it took me a few years to get a handle on it, which is how I came out of legalism in the mid 80's.

It's the same idea as studying Romans. If you think Paul's words are easy, then why did Peter speak of Paul's words of righteousness and say they are hard to be understood and are therefore so often wrestled with?

Once I took to studying Paul, I realized Peter was right. You can believe Peter was wrong if you wish, though.

But righteousness is a complicated issue.

2Pe 3:15-16 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; (16) As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

If you think my few paragraphs are too much to read, you will be unable to study Paul's teachings on righteousness, for he writes and writes and writes about it.

I taught righteousness as soon as I started pastoring, and showing folks that we cannot do anything to merit righteousness. Immediately, people began misunderstanding me, just as they did Paul. I later learned from some awesome teachers that if a person is not commonly misunderstood, then they are probably not teaching the truth. Paul was so misunderstood that folks thought he meant Law was useless trash, and others thought he meant you can use righteousness as a cloak for sin. He had to always list clarifiers and disclaimers.

One brother mistook me as saying we do not need to live right after we are saved, and we do not have to pray and study the bible. He thought we do NOTHING according to my teaching and could not follow it. I explained to him that doing anything TO GET RIGHTEOUSNESS was the all-important difference. We do not live right in order to get righteous. We live right because we should align our lives to our position as being righteous.

I do not think he ever did get that.

No, righteousness is not a simple subject.

The one thing that's more complicated than righteousness is YOU!

Are you equivocating salvation and righteousness? Maybe you are. I spent my time in the post to which you are responding, proclaiming that SALVATION is easy. You spent your 5,000 word response saying, "No, Righteousness is not easy, Peter said so." So unless you're saying that salvation and righteousness are identical, what's happening is, I'm saying, "Hey those Giants are gonna be great this year", and you're saying, "Nuh uh, Chevys are WAY better than Fords".

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by notofworks

The one thing that's more complicated than righteousness is YOU!

Are you equivocating salvation and righteousness? Maybe you are. I spent my time in the post to which you are responding, proclaiming that SALVATION is easy. You spent your 5,000 word response saying, "No, Righteousness is not easy, Peter said so." So unless you're saying that salvation and righteousness are identical, what's happening is, I'm saying, "Hey those Giants are gonna be great this year", and you're saying, "Nuh uh, Chevys are WAY better than Fords".

Salvation is only gained when God gives us righteousness. I thought we all knew that!

No, it is not an easy theology. Again, ask Peter.

Bro., our ticket to glory is righteousness. Gaining righteousness is salvation. It's a very basic Bible concept.

My calling is a bible teacher, who also pastors. Maybe yours is pastor. There is a difference, you know. lol What is complex is how righteousness is related to anything we do.

BUT AGAIN, I write so much since you have been known to think I once said tongues is righteousness. I write so much to avoid seeing you mistaken my thoughts. really.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Salvation is only gained when God gives us righteousness. I thought we all knew that!

No, it is not an easy theology. Again, ask Peter.

Bro., our ticket to glory is righteousness. Gaining righteousness is salvation. It's a very basic Bible concept.

My calling is a bible teacher, who also pastors. Maybe yours is pastor. There is a difference, you know. .lol

Wow.


Well, since you're such a teacher, I'm sure you understand that the word "and" is a conjunction when ministries are named in Ephesians...."Pastors AND teachers."

I'm a pastor and teacher.

But whichever, I hear the smugness in your statement. I've acknowledged that you know MORE about the bible than I. But I haven't acknowledged that you understand it better.

Simply knowing the bible's content doesn't make one a great teacher. Just ask Harold Camping.

If you're going to weave righteousness and salvation together and claim that salvation is a hard thing, or that walking away from sin is a hard thing and only then can we be saved, then I don't think you understand the bible, and specifically, Calvary, as much as you know the bible.

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Again, and I am ending my part in our fine chats together, you and I, on this subject after this, since I think we are simply at loggerheads forevermore if we still do not agree lol. ... but the bible teaches salvation by works are turns to Christ, walking ladies across to street, or dressing a certain way in order to obtain righteousness WITHOUT GOD LOOKING TO THE WORKS OF THE CROSS ALONE TO MAKE US RIGHTEOUS.

I think this is the problem many have... God's righteousness toward us is seen in several ways. The righteousness that saves in the sense of what brought about salvation or the offering of it is not of "anything" we can do or did. Christ purchased salvation with his life so that he could "offer" it. Yet at the same time the "grace" or "offering" of God that was God's righteousness manifested toward us by which we are saved does not include the righteousness to obtain salvation. We are asked for a proper response to obtain. God's righteousness/justice is seen as...

1) Christ dies for us (God's love and a evidence of the greatness of God's righteousness)
2) Christ death is a satisfaction to the debt that needs to be paid. Thus Christ was "justice" done or "righteousness" as in the Hebrew it has a constant aspect of "justice" toward something. Thus it is not by satisfaction of the law that brought righteousness DIRECTLY by us but Christ death by which the law attested to him being a perfect sacrifice for atoning that we are saved. Thus he is the "source" or "author" of salvation.
3) Christs "justice" done by his passion toward us is to be returned likewise just as he did the will of the Father. Thus we negate all to obtain life and count the cost BEFOREHAND before endeavoring on our journey to obtain eternal life. To do so is the only satisfaction we can offer to obtain true repentance to gaining unification with Christ in covenant. Thus as Peter and the rest left all to follow, so do we. Thus the cost which is part of the contract/covenant at the beginning are the same considerations throughout the journey to obtain. If you abide, he will abide and you will be judged faithful or friend if you continue in him. This the teaching of Middah Keneged Middah.. measure for measure or consideration for consideration. Thus he has to offer FOR considerations or measure to obtain.

2 kinds of righteousness.

1) Righteousness done by Christ to obtain salvation and right to judge which was made available by Christs atonement and resurrection.

2) Righteousness which we are required to respond with to obtain the atonement by covenant. What is the righteousness required to obtain covenant to abide in Christ which is to abide in contract with him...

To enter

Repent (turn from all to be united with him)
Be Baptized (which flows from repentance. As Baptism is seen as the realization of the work of Christ in which we are turning to Christ to be unified in his death and arising to abiding in life of covenant in Christ.
receive the HS which is the empowering of God unto salvation and God's approval.

Covenant life to obtain eternal life.... All the below are the same things to enter seen in repentance.

1) continue to follow Him(turned from the world started at the very beginning)
2) Negate all for him to obtain
3) Faithfulness to the end
4) Faith (living reliance on him) which relates to #3
5) Do his will which in part is #1 and John 15 and the commandments etc...
so that we will be found blameless and have presented our bodies as living sacrifices which are holy and acceptable that which we will be found WORTHY of our calling and thus chosen in the end.


If we fail....

2 righteousness aspects or acts of justice are seen.

1) We are to be righteous in our failure and turn from it toward him and ask for forgiveness with our whole heart to be considered "just" and "alive." Eze 18. and to be abiding in him John 15.
2) He is righteous/faithful to forgive us of our sins SEEING our response of turning and by contract/right we are forgiven because he has obtained authority by the cross to forgive sin by his passion on the cross once and forever.

3) a righteous man falls seven times but it's not about the down but are you staying down(unrepentant and turned toward the flesh vs God)