The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Baptism becomes a "work" when dogmatic literalists professing to have some sort of "revealed" insight demand that all Christians baptize according to their rite or find themselves abandoned and "heaving" in the flaming streets of hell.

Alternately, baptism is not a "work" when a sincere believer, leaving a life of sin behind, is buried with Christ and rises to a new life, walking in the Spirit.

I find no problem with what you stated here.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by notofworks

And your last sentence....."Well, anyway, how is baptism a work like walking an old lady across the street to get to heave by works, anyway.", doesn't make any sense to me. Is there a typo or something?

Let me rephrase it. You said a "work" is something like helping an old lady cross the street. So, I asked how is water baptism such a work.

I stopped reading because, mostly, it's just the same stuff over and over and over again.

Also, I am not interested in arguing something with you. I just wanted to know where righteousness fits into your theology. Let me make it shorter to read. If righteousness is so simple an issue, what is your thought about these verses:

Matthew 5:20 KJV For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Romans 5:17 KJV For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

How does righteousness fit into salvation in your mind?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by DAII

I totally agree on the Gospel being presented ... and the revelation of the Christ and His Work as the Lamb being the better promise as the ultimate end of Peter's message...

That was not my point. My point was that Peter already told them to call on the name of the Lord using Joel. Why did the people hearing him ask him what should they do if calling on the name of the Lord was already mentioned?

but to ignore that the salvational message is rooted in the idea of calling on the name of the Lord through Christ....

I never said salvation is not ROOTED in calling on the name of the Lord.

and that it is repentance/faith IN THE WORK OF JESUS CHRIST ... together that washes our sin ... as witnessed by Joel, Peter and Paul as to how we are saved as opposed to the biblical response of those who have fully trusted and are regenerated by His Spirit .... still remains the basis of our disagreement. Once again, confusing the fruit for the root.

I would be interested in your response to my thread about Baptism, Infilling, Poured Upon, etc. I see all instances of receiving the Spirit in Acts as something that did not occur before Spirit baptism, since they are one and the same experience as shown in the aforementioned thread.

Eternal life is granted to those who believe on His name.

For a non-dispensationalist, like yourself, to ignore some of the links between the day of the Lord and what God expressed as His plan of salvation from the prophets to the apostles through true biblical faith and repentance (which go hand in hand) .... for both the Jew and Gentile.... is curious to me to say the least

I never said there was no link, nor did I ignore some links. lol The day of the Lord is the wrath upon Israel, and Peter spoke from Joel of events from Pentecost to Holocaust. What is your point?

when you seek to add a properly administered baptism as a salvific requirement to cause salvation or a universal intitial sign of Spirit outpouring being glossalia ... when the promise was to prophesy His wonders ... along with other manifestations.

The overall New Testament teaches baptism is part of salvation. Again, no amount of writing can change the fact that salvation is tied with baptism as PART of the process when Peter said baptism saves by the resurrection. And again, Peter cited instructions from Joel about calling on the name of the Lord, but the people still asked him what to do.

Also, what would be your response to my claim that true baptism is no more a work for salvation than repentance is?

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I find no problem with what you stated here.

Also, I am not interested in arguing something with you. I just wanted to know where righteousness fits into your theology. Let me make it shorter to read. If righteousness is so simple an issue, what is your thought about these verses:

Matthew 5:20 KJV For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Romans 5:17 KJV For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

How does righteousness fit into salvation in your mind?

"Righteousness" begins as a free gift to those who believe (Genesis 15:6 and Revelation 19:8). It is a robe that is "granted" to us.

Once having received this gift, it becomes our duty to "wear" the "robe" or "armor" that righteousness represents: Matthew 22:11-14 and Ephesians 6:14-17.

By my own personal conduct I can either "put on" or "put off" this garment that I received as a free gift.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by pelathais

"Righteousness" begins as a free gift to those who believe (Genesis 15:6 and Revelation 19:8). It is a robe that is "granted" to us.

Once having received this gift, it becomes our duty to "wear" the "robe" or "armor" that righteousness represents: Matthew 22:11-14 and Ephesians 6:14-17.

By my own personal conduct I can either "put on" or "put off" this garment that I received as a free gift.

Oops, I mistakenly typed words about righteousness to you that I meant for notofworks.

Anyway, I agree with you.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Let me rephrase it. You said a "work" is something like helping an old lady cross the street. So, I asked how is water baptism such a work.

Also, I am not interested in arguing something with you. I just wanted to know where righteousness fits into your theology. Let me make it shorter to read. If righteousness is so simple an issue, what is your thought about these verses:

Matthew 5:20 KJV For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Romans 5:17 KJV For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

How does righteousness fit into salvation in your mind?

The word "Righteous" can cover a lot of territory. The "Just" in the Old Testament and the word "Righteous" in the New Testament can be interchangeable. Righteousness can be obedience. Romans 5:17 seems to point to a right standing with God while the Matthew 5 reference seems to have more to do with obedience.

So what is your point? You keep coming back to "Righteousness", so go ahead and make your point because I'm not figuring out your code.

I'm not sure that I said that "works are something like helping an old lady across the street" as a blanket all-inclusive statement. I believe I was talking about the concept of works bettering our position with God for salvation. I'm not sure what helping an old lady across the street has to do with baptism.

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by notofworks

The word "Righteous" can cover a lot of territory. The "Just" in the Old Testament and the word "Righteous" in the New Testament can be interchangeable. Righteousness can be obedience. Romans 5:17 seems to point to a right standing with God while the Matthew 5 reference seems to have more to do with obedience.

It also means justice done toward a individual. Which is counting.... considering something aright/just or wrong/unrighteous. The usage in the OT is clear on it is usd this way many times. In general it is always in response TO something. God's grace is always a response to something. GOd gives grace to the humble and resists the proud. Why? Because justice is done toward the condition. God responds in perfect justice and is judging always to respond to people in a righteous way.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

It also means justice done toward a individual. Which is counting.... considering something aright/just or wrong/unrighteous. The usage in the OT is clear on it is usd this way many times. In general it is always in response TO something. God's grace is always a response to something. GOd gives grace to the humble and resists the proud. Why? Because justice is done toward the condition. God responds in perfect justice and is judging always to respond to people in a righteous way.

Wonderful thoughts about righteousness. I'm still just wanting to know why Mike is stuck on getting me, or others, to define and discuss righteousness. Why is this being weaved into the discussion of works, helping old ladies across the street, and the fact that works cannot save.

Legalist...do you believe that works of any kind are involved in salvation, and I'm not speaking of the work of Christ?

[Adino]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

and as usual you don't understand covenant entry and you make baptism spiritually meaningless. Sure your point of faith/repentance etc.. are good but you ignore the differences in what baptism is for. Instead of seeing it is part of salvation and coming to abide in Christ you make it worthless.

Cornelius received the benefits of a covenental relationship with God prior to being baptized.

If God recognized faith alone as obedience enough to the Gospel to bestow covenental benefit then why do you require more?

Baptism was the event at which a baptizand gave his confession of Christ and was to be accepted into the Church as being saved. Neither baptism nor confession saved him in the eyes of God. It was at this time he was accepted as saved in the eyes of his peers.

[Adino]

DAII, good to see you, Bro. Good job. You saw where I was about to go by bringing up the 'calling on the Lord' issue.