Don't Ask....Don't Tell. Good Policy?

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by Esther

I believe this is a lie from satan making people believe they could be born as an homosexual. Why would a God that considers homosexuality as an abomination, cause someone to be born into that lifestyle? That doesn't make sense.

I do believe you when you say this has been a battle for you. I know someone that has battled it and lost the battle more than once.

I do believe prayer and fasting is what it takes to break this yoke of bondage and I know you said you have gone that route. Don't know how long you fasted and it isn't important for me to know. I know Jesus told His disciples that some spirits only come out by prayer and fasting.

I believe there are some spirits stronger than others, and I truly believe that the spirit of homosexuality is one if not the strongest spirit I have seen to be conquered.

Your own theology teaches that a God who hates sin allows people to be born into sin. Does that make any sense to you? Why is it that Christians FREAK over this particular "sin" but won't blink an eye when the topic of "Greed" comes up which is mentioned immediately after homosexuality in I Corinthians 6?

I should go start a thread about greed and see if it makes it to page 2. I doubt it.

[Azzan]

Originally Posted by BeenThinkin

Greetings Azzan. Please let me state up front that I in no way am approaching this subject in a judging way. I have a young man in my church who has just "come out" and he has asked to talk to me. I want to help him and not kill him spiritually.

How do you approach the following scriptures from Romans 1? And I'm very aware of what Romans 2:1 says... " 2:1* ¶ Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things." I AM NOT JUDGING YOU.... Just interested in your response.

But here are the scriptures I'm asking you about, particularly the bolded part.

Romans 1:19* ¶ Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20* For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21* Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22* Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23* And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24* Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25* Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26* For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27* And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28* And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29* Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30* Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31* Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32* Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

How do you explain what Paul was talking about?

Been Thinkin

BT, thanks for the non judgemental approach. As I said before I will not be drawn into debates. And that is because I can offer nothing new that has not already been said many, many times before here at AFF and else where.

But since you asked, I will tell you my personal opinion. I know that most here will disagree with me and that is fine - you have your interpretation, I have mine.

As I've already stated, it is my opinion that some are born gay. I know many do not believe that and that is fine. We will have to disagree. But I do believe it because I am there - I have dealt with this "choice" every single day since I was age 11. I am now 47.

It frustrates me to no end to hear people say it is a choice when they have not walked in my shoes for one single minute let alone an entire life time. Until you have fought my battles, felt my pain, faced my shame, you do not know of what you speak. Imagine the horror of finding out you are attracted to your gender when being raised in a Pentecostal home or any christian home for that matter. Do you have any idea what that does to a person and their self esteem? I think not.

I said all that to say this. For me, I do not feel that it is unnatural to be attracted to my gender. I know that goes against the grain but you asked me my opinion. I know many will say I am in error. I know many of you will pray for my soul. I thank you for it.

Again, I am not here to push a gay agenda. I apologize if I have offended anyone as that is not my intention. I am just trying to articulate where I am and what I have been through in order that someone out there may gain a better understanding of what it means to be gay and perhaps more importantly what it means to be gay and raised Pentecostal.

There are many hurting souls out there folks. And some of them are sitting in the pew right next to you.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by Azzan

BT, thanks for the non judgemental approach. As I said before I will not be drawn into debates. And that is because I can offer nothing new that has not already been said many, many times before here at AFF and else where.

But since you asked, I will tell you my personal opinion. I know that most here will disagree with me and that is fine - you have your interpretation, I have mine.

As I've already stated, it is my opinion that some are born gay. I know many do not believe that and that is fine. We will have to disagree. But I do believe it because I am there - I have dealt with this "choice" every single day since I was age 11. I am now 47.

It frustrates me to no end to hear people say it is a choice when they have not walked in my shoes for one single minute let alone an entire life time. Until you have fought my battles, felt my pain, faced my shame, you do not know of what you speak. Imagine the horror of finding out you are attracted to your gender when being raised in a Pentecostal home or any christian home for that matter. Do you have any idea what that does to a person and their self esteem? I think not.

I said all that to say this. For me, I do not feel that it is unnatural to be attracted to my gender. I know that goes against the grain but you asked me my opinion. I know many will say I am in error. I know many of you will pray for my soul. I thank you for it.

Again, I am not here to push a gay agenda. I apologize if I have offended anyone as that is not my intention. I am just trying to articulate where I am and what I have been through in order that someone out there may gain a better understanding of what it means to be gay and perhaps more importantly what it means to be gay and raised Pentecostal.

There are many hurting souls out there folks. And some of them are sitting in the pew right next to you.

You said a lot here, but what you closed with should rattle our cages and seriously bother all of us. It's not enough to yell about sin over the pulpit. That's not the fix-all.

[Sabby]

As someone that spent many years as an nco in the army can I add my 2 cents worth?
I served with and supervised gays of both genders while in the military. I didn't care what their personal lives consisted of as long as they performed the mission to standard. As far as my personal feelings went, as long as it didn't become an issue interfering with the mission then I left them alone.
You make an invalid point regarding gays not "hitting on" straights, because I remember as a young soldier in the 70's getting "hit on". In those days and into the era of DADT, gays were in the military, but the officer corps and senior noncoms always "looked the other way" for the sake of the mission and because they just didn't want to get involved in ousting someone from the military over something like sexual orientation/preference.
The gays in the showers argument is a valid one. Even though I believed they had a right to their own privacy (though against my moral convictions to be gay), I felt MY privacy was seriously invaded when I showered in the field with known gays.
Recently the former head of the Marine Corps said that he felt 95% of all marines would be uncomfortable having DADT lifted. What that is saying is they don't want their privacy invaded either, by "open" gays. The financial repercussions will be enormous. There will eventually have to be a straight female billet, straight male billet and a gay billet. It will not be like it is now under DADT, because at least now, you can be a gay in the military but you are required to use discretion. If DADT is lifted the discretion is gone. No pun intended, but it will be "in your face". Straight soldiers, sailors, and marines will be at a politically correct risk because gays will be viewed as a persecuted minority, and the straight voices may not be heard (Case in point, the Ft. Hood shooter)when they complain of overt improper behavior. What will happen even more often than that will be the accusation that a straight accuser will be labeled (by the media and political activists) as homophobic. Think it's not so? Look at some of the bashing some of the most loving men of God have taken all because of their Biblical position on homosexuality. Yeah, there ARE some jerks out there (ie; the Westboro Baptist church) that see things all black or white. I'm talking about godly men that love God and their fellow man and are truly compassionate towards ALL, gays and straights. These men are slimed. The media is giving the military a "pass" right now, but most of the news outlets despise the military, and all it will take is a couple of dozen straight complaints in the military about gay behavior or whatever, and the military will need to redo its image and start "Gay Relations" classes much like they had "Race Relations" classes back in the 70's in the army in order to mollify the PC police in the media, politics and academia.
Whew, glad I got that off my chest! I just wanted to present the point of view that most of my fellow veterans and retirees that I personally know feel. As long as they do the job I could care LESS if I'm working with, supervised by or supervising gays. That does not bother me. What bothers me about lifting DADT is the lifting of discretion...something that will infringe on the privacy of 98% of the military due to the nature of the job.

On a personal note: I feel for you. I am a lot like Aquila (sorry about that!) in that I really like the opposite sex. I mean they are a great temptation to me. I didn't come to know the Lord until after I'd been the army for three years as a single soldier in the '70s. What I'm trying to tell you is I understand the power of temptation. I know it is not easy to resist. God has helped me, by His grace to be able to withstand. You can with the help of the Lord Jesus and with some friends that agape love you not be overtaken. God doesn't want you to be alone and He sure doesn't want you to be separated in fellowship from Him, so there is a place for you, in Him.

[Azzan]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Azzan - just to catch up with the thread, are you a believer in Jesus Christ as the Son of God? Do you believe He is good, great and perfect? Do you believe His words are true? Do you believe He provides for our needs? Are you a believer?

I realize you were raised in Pentecost, but I've known plenty that were raised in Pentecost that were unfortunately burned early on, or were otherwise distracted from believing in Jesus (it became more about the other non-sense that goes on).

If you are a believer, I'd know better how to interact with you.
If you are not, that will also be helpful.

Blessings,Jeffrey.

I will be honest and tell you that I am not entirely sure what I believe anymore. Do I believe there is a God? Yes.

[Cindy]

Originally Posted by Sabby

As someone that spent many years as an nco in the army can I add my 2 cents worth?
I served with and supervised gays of both genders while in the military. I didn't care what their personal lives consisted of as long as they performed the mission to standard. As far as my personal feelings went, as long as it didn't become an issue interfering with the mission then I left them alone.
You make an invalid point regarding gays not "hitting on" straights, because I remember as a young soldier in the 70's getting "hit on". In those days and into the era of DADT, gays were in the military, but the officer corps and senior noncoms always "looked the other way" for the sake of the mission and because they just didn't want to get involved in ousting someone from the military over something like sexual orientation/preference.
The gays in the showers argument is a valid one. Even though I believed they had a right to their own privacy (though against my moral convictions to be gay), I felt MY privacy was seriously invaded when I showered in the field with known gays.
Recently the former head of the Marine Corps said that he felt 95% of all marines would be uncomfortable having DADT lifted. What that is saying is they don't want their privacy invaded either, by "open" gays. The financial repercussions will be enormous. There will eventually have to be a straight female billet, straight male billet and a gay billet. It will not be like it is now under DADT, because at least now, you can be a gay in the military but you are required to use discretion. If DADT is lifted the discretion is gone. No pun intended, but it will be "in your face". Straight soldiers, sailors, and marines will be at a politically correct risk because gays will be viewed as a persecuted minority, and the straight voices may not be heard (Case in point, the Ft. Hood shooter)when they complain of overt improper behavior. What will happen even more often than that will be the accusation that a straight accuser will be labeled (by the media and political activists) as homophobic. Think it's not so? Look at some of the bashing some of the most loving men of God have taken all because of their Biblical position on homosexuality. Yeah, there ARE some jerks out there (ie; the Westboro Baptist church) that see things all black or white. I'm talking about godly men that love God and their fellow man and are truly compassionate towards ALL, gays and straights. These men are slimed. The media is giving the military a "pass" right now, but most of the news outlets despise the military, and all it will take is a couple of dozen straight complaints in the military about gay behavior or whatever, and the military will need to redo its image and start "Gay Relations" classes, much like they had "Race Relations" classes back in the 70's in the army in order to mollify the PC police in the media, politics and academia.
Whew, glad I got that off my chest! I just wanted to present the point of view that most of my fellow veterans and retirees (that I personally know) feel. As long as they do the job I could care LESS if I'm working with, supervised by or supervising gays. That does not bother me. What bothers me about lifting DADT is the lifting of discretion...something that will infringe on the privacy of 98% of the military due to the nature of the job.

On a personal note: I feel for you. I am a lot like Aquila (sorry about that!) in that I really like the opposite sex. I mean they are a great temptation to me. I didn't come to know the Lord until after I'd been the army for three years as a single soldier in the '70s. What I'm trying to tell you is I understand the power of temptation. I know it is not easy to resist. God has helped me, by His grace to be able to withstand. You can with the help of the Lord Jesus and with some friends that agape love you not be overtaken. God doesn't want you to be alone and He sure doesn't want you to be separated in fellowship from Him, so there is a place for you, in Him.

[sandie]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Maybe not do something stupid about it but...if it's ok for a man that is attracted to men to shower with men, why not also allow men that are attracted to women to shower with women?

My point is, when you actually know there is a guy showering with you that is sexually attracted to men it's a whole different story

This is what I've always thought.
Why the double standard? Why can a man who is a homosexual shower with other men but men who are heterosexual can't shower with women?
I think something very obvious is being over looked....on purpose, imo.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by Sabby

As someone that spent many years as an nco in the army can I add my 2 cents worth?
I served with and supervised gays of both genders while in the military. I didn't care what their personal lives consisted of as long as they performed the mission to standard. As far as my personal feelings went, as long as it didn't become an issue interfering with the mission then I left them alone.
You make an invalid point regarding gays not "hitting on" straights, because I remember as a young soldier in the 70's getting "hit on". In those days and into the era of DADT, gays were in the military, but the officer corps and senior noncoms always "looked the other way" for the sake of the mission and because they just didn't want to get involved in ousting someone from the military over something like sexual orientation/preference.
The gays in the showers argument is a valid one. Even though I believed they had a right to their own privacy (though against my moral convictions to be gay), I felt MY privacy was seriously invaded when I showered in the field with known gays.
Recently the former head of the Marine Corps said that he felt 95% of all marines would be uncomfortable having DADT lifted. What that is saying is they don't want their privacy invaded either, by "open" gays. The financial repercussions will be enormous. There will eventually have to be a straight female billet, straight male billet and a gay billet. It will not be like it is now under DADT, because at least now, you can be a gay in the military but you are required to use discretion. If DADT is lifted the discretion is gone. No pun intended, but it will be "in your face". Straight soldiers, sailors, and marines will be at a politically correct risk because gays will be viewed as a persecuted minority, and the straight voices may not be heard (Case in point, the Ft. Hood shooter)when they complain of overt improper behavior. What will happen even more often than that will be the accusation that a straight accuser will be labeled (by the media and political activists) as homophobic. Think it's not so? Look at some of the bashing some of the most loving men of God have taken all because of their Biblical position on homosexuality. Yeah, there ARE some jerks out there (ie; the Westboro Baptist church) that see things all black or white. I'm talking about godly men that love God and their fellow man and are truly compassionate towards ALL, gays and straights. These men are slimed. The media is giving the military a "pass" right now, but most of the news outlets despise the military, and all it will take is a couple of dozen straight complaints in the military about gay behavior or whatever, and the military will need to redo its image and start "Gay Relations" classes much like they had "Race Relations" classes back in the 70's in the army in order to mollify the PC police in the media, politics and academia.
Whew, glad I got that off my chest! I just wanted to present the point of view that most of my fellow veterans and retirees that I personally know feel. As long as they do the job I could care LESS if I'm working with, supervised by or supervising gays. That does not bother me. What bothers me about lifting DADT is the lifting of discretion...something that will infringe on the privacy of 98% of the military due to the nature of the job.

On a personal note: I feel for you. I am a lot like Aquila (sorry about that!) in that I really like the opposite sex. I mean they are a great temptation to me. I didn't come to know the Lord until after I'd been the army for three years as a single soldier in the '70s. What I'm trying to tell you is I understand the power of temptation. I know it is not easy to resist. God has helped me, by His grace to be able to withstand. You can with the help of the Lord Jesus and with some friends that agape love you not be overtaken. God doesn't want you to be alone and He sure doesn't want you to be separated in fellowship from Him, so there is a place for you, in Him.

I appreciate your thoughts. I just want to add that I believe he clarified the "hitting on" comment he made.

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by Azzan

BT, thanks for the non judgemental approach. As I said before I will not be drawn into debates. And that is because I can offer nothing new that has not already been said many, many times before here at AFF and else where.

But since you asked, I will tell you my personal opinion. I know that most here will disagree with me and that is fine - you have your interpretation, I have mine.

As I've already stated, it is my opinion that some are born gay. I know many do not believe that and that is fine. We will have to disagree. But I do believe it because I am there - I have dealt with this "choice" every single day since I was age 11. I am now 47.

It frustrates me to no end to hear people say it is a choice when they have not walked in my shoes for one single minute let alone an entire life time. Until you have fought my battles, felt my pain, faced my shame, you do not know of what you speak. Imagine the horror of finding out you are attracted to your gender when being raised in a Pentecostal home or any christian home for that matter. Do you have any idea what that does to a person and their self esteem? I think not.

I said all that to say this. For me, I do not feel that it is unnatural to be attracted to my gender. I know that goes against the grain but you asked me my opinion. I know many will say I am in error. I know many of you will pray for my soul. I thank you for it.

Again, I am not here to push a gay agenda. I apologize if I have offended anyone as that is not my intention. I am just trying to articulate where I am and what I have been through in order that someone out there may gain a better understanding of what it means to be gay and perhaps more importantly what it means to be gay and raised Pentecostal.

There are many hurting souls out there folks. And some of them are sitting in the pew right next to you.

I'm coming in late on this conversation, so I'm sorry if I'm repeating what someone else may have already said.

First, I have gay friends and over the years I have tried my best to understand their take on the gay agenda. I'm 50 years old, and at this age many of us become more sympathetic or merciful to those whom we considered wrong in the past. Our own mistakes bring about humility in regards to situations like this and I have honestly tried to understand the homosexual lifestyle.

My problem with the gay lifestyle is simple (at least I think it is simple). Azzan, you consider your lifestyle or choice natural. You feel you were born this way, and that confirms your feeling about being gay.

A natural choice should confirm a natural response or reaction. For instance, the Sun is the Sun because it is warm, provides light, and helps our planet to grow food to sustain life. The Sun would not be the Sun if it didn't provide us these benefits, at least on Planet Earth where humans exist. We expect the Sun to perform and do its duty from a natural standpoint.

If the Sun leaves these natural boundaries, we die. When people leave natural boundaries, we die.

Without becoming too graphic here, when the gay agenda is revealed in honesty, the male organ does not belong where gay men put "It". Many gay men require diapers, surgery, and have a great deal of infection in their urinary tract from using the anis for sexual pleasure. Also, sperm is meant for the vagina of a woman where life is produced. Once people leave the natural sexual function of a man and a woman, problems are not only obvious, they are unnatural and unscientific.

If a gay person decided to live with the same gender without having sex, I could see that as being a productive lifestyle for some. But once sex is brought into the picture, I'm sorry, but I don't see that as being of a natural affection.

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by BeenThinkin

Greetings Azzan. Please let me state up front that I in no way am approaching this subject in a judging way. I have a young man in my church who has just "come out" and he has asked to talk to me. I want to help him and not kill him spiritually.

How do you approach the following scriptures from Romans 1? And I'm very aware of what Romans 2:1 says... " 2:1* ¶ Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things." I AM NOT JUDGING YOU.... Just interested in your response.

But here are the scriptures I'm asking you about, particularly the bolded part.

Romans 1:19* ¶ Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20* For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21* Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22* Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23* And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24* Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25* Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26* For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27* And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28* And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29* Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30* Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31* Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32* Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

How do you explain what Paul was talking about?

Been Thinkin

BT, no doubt those who are involved with the sin in question would seek to say it's not "unnatural". Simply one more attempt to justify sin and lust of the flesh - nothing new there.