Don't Ask....Don't Tell. Good Policy?

[coadie]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Coadie, would you have dinner with a man, made in the Image of God, who was an unbelieving homosexual?

Not a problem. I had a gay boss when I was young. we got along great.He was not only smart, he was clear on where others stood. He owned a gay female impersonator bar and never once discussed it.

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Can you help us understand why the warning was posted? I've seen nothing that has promoted the gay lifestyle...in fact, the opposite...and the warning has the appearance of Admin fear of a tough subject. Rather than the ambiguous warning that doesn't specify what was wrong, can you tell us what happened? Darkness is frustrating. Give us some light.

I read the statement and it appears like something less than a "warning".

As you know, this is a controversial issue and as such may need guided discussion/debate.

The last line pretty much sums it up I think.

"Hopefully this will help clarify the forum's position on the matter, and frame future debates"

[BeenThinkin]

Originally Posted by Sabby

As someone that spent many years as an nco in the army can I add my 2 cents worth?
I served with and supervised gays of both genders while in the military. I didn't care what their personal lives consisted of as long as they performed the mission to standard. As far as my personal feelings went, as long as it didn't become an issue interfering with the mission then I left them alone.
You make an invalid point regarding gays not "hitting on" straights, because I remember as a young soldier in the 70's getting "hit on". In those days and into the era of DADT, gays were in the military, but the officer corps and senior noncoms always "looked the other way" for the sake of the mission and because they just didn't want to get involved in ousting someone from the military over something like sexual orientation/preference.
The gays in the showers argument is a valid one. Even though I believed they had a right to their own privacy (though against my moral convictions to be gay), I felt MY privacy was seriously invaded when I showered in the field with known gays.
Recently the former head of the Marine Corps said that he felt 95% of all marines would be uncomfortable having DADT lifted. What that is saying is they don't want their privacy invaded either, by "open" gays. The financial repercussions will be enormous. There will eventually have to be a straight female billet, straight male billet and a gay billet. It will not be like it is now under DADT, because at least now, you can be a gay in the military but you are required to use discretion. If DADT is lifted the discretion is gone. No pun intended, but it will be "in your face". Straight soldiers, sailors, and marines will be at a politically correct risk because gays will be viewed as a persecuted minority, and the straight voices may not be heard (Case in point, the Ft. Hood shooter)when they complain of overt improper behavior. What will happen even more often than that will be the accusation that a straight accuser will be labeled (by the media and political activists) as homophobic. Think it's not so? Look at some of the bashing some of the most loving men of God have taken all because of their Biblical position on homosexuality. Yeah, there ARE some jerks out there (ie; the Westboro Baptist church) that see things all black or white. I'm talking about godly men that love God and their fellow man and are truly compassionate towards ALL, gays and straights. These men are slimed. The media is giving the military a "pass" right now, but most of the news outlets despise the military, and all it will take is a couple of dozen straight complaints in the military about gay behavior or whatever, and the military will need to redo its image and start "Gay Relations" classes much like they had "Race Relations" classes back in the 70's in the army in order to mollify the PC police in the media, politics and academia.
Whew, glad I got that off my chest! I just wanted to present the point of view that most of my fellow veterans and retirees that I personally know feel. As long as they do the job I could care LESS if I'm working with, supervised by or supervising gays. That does not bother me. What bothers me about lifting DADT is the lifting of discretion...something that will infringe on the privacy of 98% of the military due to the nature of the job.

On a personal note: I feel for you. I am a lot like Aquila (sorry about that!) in that I really like the opposite sex. I mean they are a great temptation to me. I didn't come to know the Lord until after I'd been the army for three years as a single soldier in the '70s. What I'm trying to tell you is I understand the power of temptation. I know it is not easy to resist. God has helped me, by His grace to be able to withstand. You can with the help of the Lord Jesus and with some friends that agape love you not be overtaken. God doesn't want you to be alone and He sure doesn't want you to be separated in fellowship from Him, so there is a place for you, in Him.

Sabby, you make sense!

BT

[BeenThinkin]

Originally Posted by Azzan

BT, thanks for the non judgemental approach. As I said before I will not be drawn into debates. And that is because I can offer nothing new that has not already been said many, many times before here at AFF and else where.

But since you asked, I will tell you my personal opinion. I know that most here will disagree with me and that is fine - you have your interpretation, I have mine.

As I've already stated, it is my opinion that some are born gay. I know many do not believe that and that is fine. We will have to disagree. But I do believe it because I am there - I have dealt with this "choice" every single day since I was age 11. I am now 47.

It frustrates me to no end to hear people say it is a choice when they have not walked in my shoes for one single minute let alone an entire life time. Until you have fought my battles, felt my pain, faced my shame, you do not know of what you speak. Imagine the horror of finding out you are attracted to your gender when being raised in a Pentecostal home or any christian home for that matter. Do you have any idea what that does to a person and their self esteem? I think not.

I said all that to say this. For me, I do not feel that it is unnatural to be attracted to my gender. I know that goes against the grain but you asked me my opinion. I know many will say I am in error. I know many of you will pray for my soul. I thank you for it.

Again, I am not here to push a gay agenda. I apologize if I have offended anyone as that is not my intention. I am just trying to articulate where I am and what I have been through in order that someone out there may gain a better understanding of what it means to be gay and perhaps more importantly what it means to be gay and raised Pentecostal.

There are many hurting souls out there folks. And some of them are sitting in the pew right next to you.

Thanks Azzan for your response! Am praying for you and I don't say that in a demeaning, put you down way! Pray for me as I talk to a young man in my church who has just "outed" himself! I pray God gives me wisdom! I need it!

BT

[deadeye]

Heard a fellow say recently that he had come to the conclusion that he was a lesbian trapped in a male body....

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

I read the statement and it appears like something less than a "warning".

As you know, this is a controversial issue and as such may need guided discussion/debate.

The last line pretty much sums it up I think.

"Hopefully this will help clarify the forum's position on the matter, and frame future debates"

Appreciated, thank you. So is anything wrong yet? This is a HUGELY important issue in the Christian world and it's not going away. I've instigated several discussions in the past about it because I believe it needs to be talked about.

In his book, "They Like Jesus But Not The Church", Dan Kimball cites research that shows that unchurched people have two major questions about the Ecumenical Church; 1) Do I have to be a republican to go to church; and 2) How does the church feel about gays?

If we can't honestly and openly discuss these critical issues, we're burying our head in the sands of religion that refuses to wake up to the real world around our bubbled, secluded, ingrown Christian culture.

The real fact of the matter is, when a gay-looking person walks into our churches, for the most part, we have no answers for them, no direction, and a lot of judgment without a trial. I've asked many spiritual higher-ups about it and usually get nothing better than, "It's a demonic possession" or "It's because of their rebellion."

As uncomfortable as it is, I welcome and embrace this discussion and I admit that I still have more questions than answers.

I would plead to allow this discussion to continue.

If this falls into the category of questions Admin, something that is prohibited here, I don't mean it to be, but I never see a stop sign posted in a thread discussing the validity of tongues, even though an embracement of tongues is part of the rules here. So when I saw it go up in a discussion of homosexuality, I was frustrated with the lack of clarity.

Thank you.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by BeenThinkin

Thanks Azzan for your response! Am praying for you and I don't say that in a demeaning, put you down way! Pray for me as I talk to a young man in my church who has just "outed" himself! I pray God gives me wisdom! I need it!

BT

I don't claim answers but I've faced this several times including once when the young man asked me to be present when he told his family. If I can be of any help, please let me know even though, again, I'm not an expert with this. I'm not always sure what TO do, but I've seen a few things not to do.

My prayers & support.

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by deadeye

Heard a fellow say recently that he had come to the conclusion that he was a lesbian trapped in a male body....

I told you that in confidence. Can't believe you told on me.

[ThePastorsCoach]

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

I told you that in confidence. Can't believe you told on me.

That made me laugh out loud!
SO FUNNY!

[Dedicated Mind]

Originally Posted by deadeye

Heard a fellow say recently that he had come to the conclusion that he was a lesbian trapped in a male body....

there was a man on Oprah last week that had a sex change and became a woman. Tried being with men but ended up marrying a woman in a lesbian relationship. She had saved her sperm in a sperm bank before having the operation and was able to have kids with her female partner.