Don't Ask....Don't Tell. Good Policy?

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by rgcraig

Just the satisfaction that you have a lengthy and healthy discussion thread - - that's all the reward.

As for the dinner - - make it happen!!

Ok fine, I'll brag. It's just not like me to brag, though.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by Azzan

MB,

I am not sure I can definitively put myself into either category.

After my meltdown, and there are some thoughts I would like share about that part of my life sometime if anyone cares to know, I was so angry with God that I turned my back on anything pertaining to the Bible and church. So for awhile I was definitely in the former camp.

By the way, a lot of gays never get past this stage.

Over a period of many years my anger cooled to the point where I could begin to think about God. And even at times, pray.

Unlike a lot of my gay friends I have felt and seen the power of the God. I have ministered in the spirit. (And I do want to share my thoughts on the topic of demonic possession as well since that has been tossed into the ring.) So I am not so quick to throw the Bible completely away now as I was once before.

There are days I struggle with the scripture and then there are days I do not. I suppose that really isn't the answer you were looking for but it's the best I can do for now.

I'm interested and care to know...when you're ready to tell.

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Is anyone here living a sinless life? I'm just curious.

Yep, ME!!

[Azzan]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I don't think most Christians KNOW what goes into delivering a person from this infirmity. It takes a healing touch on the entire person - body, soul, and spirit. It's a miracle actually. Those delivered should rejoice. Others shouldn't insist that such a healing can be attained through by sheer will.

Sadly, I never experienced such a miracle although I strived mightly to do so. And you are correct, most Christians have no idea.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Hey, don't feel bad. I was baptized and filled with the HG and I'm still attracted to very beautiful women. I never chose to be straight. I've fought my attractions, but they don't seem to abate. I find myself catching a peak every so often and pray God forgives me. Sometimes a lovely young lady talks to me and I can't help but have a few thoughts fly through my mind that I repent of. More often, I'll see women walking around the airport where I work and catch myself "checking them out". Then I feel guilty and pray God forgives me. I don't chase women down and try to seduce them. But... I can't ditch my opposite gender attraction.

You pray for me... I'll pray for you.

And I cannot ditch my same gender attraction.

Originally Posted by Esther

...

I do believe prayer and fasting is what it takes to break this yoke of bondage and I know you said you have gone that route. Don't know how long you fasted and it isn't important for me to know. I know Jesus told His disciples that some spirits only come out by prayer and fasting.

I believe there are some spirits stronger than others, and I truly believe that the spirit of homosexuality is one if not the strongest spirit I have seen to be conquered.

Thank you. I have heard this before. In fact, I have been told I was demon possessed. Let me tell that was a real moral booster. Not.

Please, if you ever find yourself in a situation where you are ministering to a gay person, be very mindful of what you say and how you say it. You may be the last Christian they ever talk to.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by Azzan

Sadly, I never experienced such a miracle although I strived mightly to do so. And you are correct, most Christians have no idea.

And I cannot ditch my same gender attraction.

Thank you. I have heard this before. In fact, I have been told I was demon possessed. Let me tell that was a real moral booster. Not.

Please, if you ever find yourself in a situation where you are ministering to a gay person, be very mindful of what you say and how you say it. You may be the last Christian they ever talk to.

Esther's remarks are incredibly ridiculous but unfortunately, they represent a wide school of thought on the subject. It's not uncommon for pentecostals to think they can fast their way into or out of anything and nowhere is that ever taught in scripture. Same with the possession theory. I don't know how people say it with a straight face. It's lazy Christianity, in my opinion. Let's just accuse everyone who's issues we can't solve, of not praying enough, fasting enough, or being demon-possessed.

[coadie]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Esther's remarks are incredibly ridiculous but unfortunately, they represent a wide school of thought on the subject. It's not uncommon for pentecostals to think they can fast their way into or out of anything and nowhere is that ever taught in scripture. Same with the possession theory. I don't know how people say it with a straight face. It's lazy Christianity, in my opinion. Let's just accuse everyone who's issues we can't solve, of not praying enough, fasting enough, or being demon-possessed.

No bible verses that support your assertions? Is Esther being judged by your holier PC standards?
Politically correctness is the modern version of legalism.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by rgcraig

I've not killed anyone - - does that count for anything?

lol

Have you wanted to? lol

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I'd say it's part of the sin nature of man. It's "natural" in the sense that sin comes "naturally" to mankind. The natural man cannot receive spiritual things, for example. So, it is "natural" for many. But I'd not say it is "normal" or what is by design.

As for being born gay... I believe we're all born sinners. Our flesh has chemicals, pharomones, hormones, etc. that all drive us to temptations and sinful actions. In our flesh, there is no good thing. We're fallen and sinful, body, soul, and spirit. I've known gays who were gay from before they were 8 years old. And they came from very happy and healthy homes where their brothers and sisters turned out just fine. I think we heep a lot of guilt on parents by saying it's purely "environmental". Parents start weeping wondering, "Where did I go wrong?" Truth is... they didn't. It's that whole sin nature thing operating in their child's flesh... i.e.... biology of a fallen human being.

Now, I don't think that biology is always a cause. I do believe that some suffer abuses that lead to this attraction.

I also believe that for some it's just a "kink" they prefer.

So in short, I see it as a more complex issue than many. That's my take on it. I could be wrong... but I hope that clarifies.

God bless.

Aquila, thanks for responding.

I have to disagree with your overall perspective on homosexual being "natural" -- even after the order of fallen man. I'm not one who boasts about sinful hierarchies, but I do believe homosexuality to be a great sin qualitatively (not quantitatively). In other words, it's not worse than yours or mine in it's depth, it's worse in the jaded lie man has bought in that case.

I've spent much time looking at this pericope below -- which could feel pages and pages:

21For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they(AN) became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22(AO) Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23and(AP) exchanged the glory of(AQ) the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
24Therefore(AR) God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to(AS) the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25because they exchanged the truth about God for(AT) a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator,(AU) who is blessed forever! Amen.

26For this reason(AV) God gave them up to(AW) dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another,(AX) men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.


The "God gave them" I interpret as God let it be so. They believed the lie, and he let them. This isn't, IMO, always some conscious effort. Notice, though, that Paul's calls these "dishonorable passions" and says "natural relations" were given up for "one another." He calls these "shameless acts." Acts done without any shame.

Now, I understand Paul's "set-up" here in the first chapter is not on the subject of homosexuality. I do know, however, that it is explicitly mentioned here. In general, the subject is that Gentiles are without excuse, just as much as Jews are (despite them maybe using the argument "If God had chosen us, or come to us, we wouldn't have screwed up as bad") Instead, Paul makes it clear that none are without excuse. All are guilty. Equally guilty. In his argument, though, he shows the process of sin, and how twisted and yes, unnatural, it can become. Heterosexual sex is natural. It works that way. Our bodies were made for it. The tools fit. It's plain, Aquila. Fornication is even natural in this regard! Homosexuality is not. It's unnatural. This is why some quacks have called homosexuality a psychological disorder. I disagree with those fringe psychologists. I think, whether direct choice or not, it's a product of sin -- but sin that has produced depraved and unnatural affections. It's marred. It's certainly due to our fallen nature. But not all sin is 'unnatural.'

I don't pretend to have it figured out, and like you, I agree it's complex. What I do know, is that there is hope. But to say there's on difference in homosexuality than heterosexual fornication is naive at best.

Parents aren't always the blame for environment. It's not always directly something they did (where environment does, in fact, play a part), but rather something the child was exposed to. But if parents have guilt for abusive parenting, then there's nothing wrong with them feeling guilty. It's not a bad thing. That's a God-thing to bring them back on track. When people point back and say they were "gay at 8," call me cynical, but I find that hard to believe. I think it's a form of personal historical revisioning. It doesn't ruin any argument or theory if they do feel that way, and indeed it is true.

I also agree it's sometimes a kink -- not necessarily that they prefer, but that they ended up with. For others it's related to trauma or identifying due to difficult circumstances, insecurities, physical differences, etc.

I believe a child can be born "more inclined" or "more susceptible" but I simply cannot accept, at this point, that there is any truth to people being born homosexual. If I'm wrong, that's okay too. People are born with many disorders -- and if it were a DNA thing, I would definitely point to homosexual as a genetic disorder.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by coadie

The bible says Straight is the way. Not kinky.

Ummm... yes, straight is the way. But when it comes to "kinky" what's kinky? Even married couples have their... ummm... "interests". lol

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Azzan

MB,

I am not sure I can definitively put myself into either category.

After my meltdown, and there are some thoughts I would like share about that part of my life sometime if anyone cares to know, I was so angry with God that I turned my back on anything pertaining to the Bible and church. So for awhile I was definitely in the former camp.

By the way, a lot of gays never get past this stage.

Over a period of many years my anger cooled to the point where I could begin to think about God. And even at times, pray.

Unlike a lot of my gay friends I have felt and seen the power of the God. I have ministered in the spirit. (And I do want to share my thoughts on the topic of demonic possession as well since that has been tossed into the ring.) So I am not so quick to throw the Bible completely away now as I was once before.

There are days I struggle with the scripture and then there are days I do not. I suppose that really isn't the answer you were looking for but it's the best I can do for now.

I think even straight people have had periods like that in their lives. This road isn't easy to travel. But we have grace, goodness, and mercy (born from the love of God) to pick us up and dust us off along the way.