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  #11  
Old 09-09-2011, 01:39 PM
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Re: IF God is Love...

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Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
He hated Esau so his purpose according to election might stand.

9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. Romans 9:11-13
so are you saying poor Esau didn't stand a chance? he was predestined for hell?
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  #12  
Old 09-09-2011, 01:41 PM
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Re: IF God is Love...

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Originally Posted by Amanah View Post
so are you saying poor Esau didn't stand a chance? he was predestined for hell?
It was election for the nation that came from him, not him personally, that the election is speaking about. The reference in Malachi shows this to be the case. Esau never personally served Jacob, but the nation that came from him did.
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  #13  
Old 09-09-2011, 01:42 PM
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Re: IF God is Love...

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Originally Posted by Dark Energy View Post
Well if God can hate then is hate part of His nature too?
I already noted that love is the biggest part of his nature.
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  #14  
Old 09-09-2011, 02:41 PM
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Re: IF God is Love...

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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
I already noted that love is the biggest part of his nature.
So God's love is bigger than God's hate. That's a relief.
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  #15  
Old 09-09-2011, 02:48 PM
mizpeh mizpeh is offline
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Re: IF God is Love...

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Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
So God's love is bigger than God's hate. That's a relief.
That's like pitting his mercy against his justice yet the bible says that mercy rejoices over justice. Maybe that is what Mike is trying to say, thatl love is the primary and overuling emotion as opposed to divine hate (a hatred based on abhorring that which is evil) since God overroad his hatred of sin with his love for man when he sent his Son to reconcile us to himself. God is primarily likened to a good father.
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  #16  
Old 09-09-2011, 02:49 PM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: IF God is Love...

The natural reaction to the doctrine of election is that that would make God unrighteous.

9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

Paul says its not because God did not promise to have compassion on everyone.

9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.


He uses an individual man as an example.

9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.


His purpose was to be great and famous among nations that YHWH would show his power by defeating him.

Paul understands mans natural reaction to such teaching.

9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

In other words the will of God was being done in Pharohs life even tho Pharoh was doing exactly what he wanted to be doing.

Men were saying and still do today that would not be fair to men. How does God answer?

9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?


The answer is that it is fair TO GOD to be able to do whatever he wants to do with what he has made. We look at it from mens viewpoint. Paul is saying it would not be fair TO GOD to not be able to do what he choses to do with what he has made.

He is the potter while we are the clay.

Mans viewpoint is called "humanism". We think God has to answer to us! That the clay may speak against its maker. We make ourselves equal to him.

9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


The vessels of mercy understand mercy in context of the wrath of God that befalls the vessels of destruction. They are prepared to know the riches of his glory. The vessels of wrath are made up to destruction.

Not only of Jews but Gentiles. In other words it not about nationalities its about individuals.

Most people in Churches are offended by the true God. If you accept him as he is you are probably a vessel of mercy. Not an easy truth to digest.

Some of Jesus disciples could not accept such teaching.

6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. John 6:65-68


After we think about it what can we do? Where can we go? Jesus has the words that lead to eternal life. Let us be small and humble and realize the Potter has made us as his people and be glad he did not make us for destruction.

Let God be God. This is the concept of the Sovereignty of God.

Last edited by Michael The Disciple; 09-09-2011 at 02:58 PM.
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  #17  
Old 09-09-2011, 02:55 PM
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Re: IF God is Love...

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Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
So God's love is bigger than God's hate. That's a relief.
I've heard that God's love is so big that even He Himself can't lift it.
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  #18  
Old 09-09-2011, 04:54 PM
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Re: IF God is Love...

Don't forget, God not only hated Esau, but Jesus said you must hate your family to be His disciple.
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  #19  
Old 09-09-2011, 07:17 PM
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Re: IF God is Love...

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Originally Posted by seekerman View Post
Don't forget, God not only hated Esau, but Jesus said you must hate your family to be His disciple.
Isn't the contextual definition of hate is "to love less"?

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  #20  
Old 09-09-2011, 07:30 PM
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Re: IF God is Love...

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Originally Posted by Arphaxad View Post
Isn't the contextual definition of hate is "to love less"?

NO! You must leave your family to further the gospel!
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