2 No. I have no quarrel with the Holy Ghost. But you are assuming the speaking in tongues, at least in these two cases, are from the HG. May be true, may not be true. How can we tell? Discernment? Whose discernment, yours or mine? They would give different results, almost for certain.
3 Or do you claim that all speaking in tongues is the real thing?
4 Do you claim that all tongues are literally of the same "dialect"? You do believe it is a true language, with a vocabulary and grammar, don't you? Or is there possibly more than one such language?
My Reply:
1 I think AB over reacted. He's tired of hearing that old stuff about Trinitarians not receiving "the real Holy Ghost" and he fired back at you.
2 How can we tell the real from the false? By their fruits you shall know them. Don't expect them to become OP. We OP's don't even agree among ourselves on lots of stuff. Main thing is if our heart is right. The head being right is secondary.
3 I wouldn't claim that all speaking with tongues is the real thing. In Corinth the Oracle of Delphi would give a message in tongues and it would be interpreted into the language of the inquirer. Maybe because tongue speaking was part of the pagan worship in Corinth when the folks got saved they had a messed up idea of its importance. People practicing Voodoo some times speak with tongues. A person can be placed under hypnosis and speak in a foreign language he heard years ago but has no understanding of and when conscious may not even remember hearing that language.
4 Tongues can be several things. They can be known modern languages, known dead languages, languages that have been lost in antiquity, modern languages that are rare or almost unknown, or just some kind of special code language between a child of God and his/her Father.
If a child of God is earnestly seeking God, his Father will not give him something fake or spurious. I think Jesus taught that when He said, "If you then, being human/evil give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?" (paraphrased). He just finished saying that if a child asks for bread an earthly father would not give him a stone, etc.
__________________
Sam also known as Jim Ellis
Apostolic in doctrine
Pentecostal in experience
Charismatic in practice
Non-denominational in affiliation
Inter-denominational in fellowship
It wont be in our lifetimes unless there is sometype unpresedented earthshaking worldwide event that takes place
That's a possibility.
__________________
His banner over me is LOVE.... My soul followeth hard after thee....Love one another with a pure heart fervently. Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?
To be a servant of God, it will cost us our total commitment to God, and God alone. His burden must be our burden... Sis Alvear
__________________
His banner over me is LOVE.... My soul followeth hard after thee....Love one another with a pure heart fervently. Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?
To be a servant of God, it will cost us our total commitment to God, and God alone. His burden must be our burden... Sis Alvear
2 No. I have no quarrel with the Holy Ghost. But you are assuming the speaking in tongues, at least in these two cases, are from the HG. May be true, may not be true. How can we tell? Discernment? Whose discernment, yours or mine? They would give different results, almost for certain.
3 Or do you claim that all speaking in tongues is the real thing?
4 Do you claim that all tongues are literally of the same "dialect"? You do believe it is a true language, with a vocabulary and grammar, don't you? Or is there possibly more than one such language?
My Reply:
1 I think AB over reacted. He's tired of hearing that old stuff about Trinitarians not receiving "the real Holy Ghost" and he fired back at you.
Bounced right off, though.
Quote:
2 How can we tell the real from the false? By their fruits you shall know them. Don't expect them to become OP. We OP's don't even agree among ourselves on lots of stuff. Main thing is if our heart is right. The head being right is secondary.
Fruit! Yes, it's what really matters. Love, joy, peace, etc. And then there is the way men will know that we are Christ's disciples: that we have love one for another. Does speaking in tongues help us with the fruit? Does it help us love one another?
When someone speaks in tongues, but does not show the fruit of the spirit, does that mean it was fake?
When someone who does show the fruit of the Spirit, but does not speak in tongues, what does that tell us? Or do you think that is not possible?
Quote:
3 I wouldn't claim that all speaking with tongues is the real thing. In Corinth the Oracle of Delphi would give a message in tongues and it would be interpreted into the language of the inquirer. Maybe because tongue speaking was part of the pagan worship in Corinth when the folks got saved they had a messed up idea of its importance. People practicing Voodoo some times speak with tongues. A person can be placed under hypnosis and speak in a foreign language he heard years ago but has no understanding of and when conscious may not even remember hearing that language.
But what about tongues in an Apostolic church (or PAW, or COGIC, or AG)? Is that ever fake? Look at the "initial evidence" doctrine. If speaking in tongues can be faked, then what value does it have as "evidence"?
Quote:
4 Tongues can be several things. They can be known modern languages, known dead languages, languages that have been lost in antiquity, modern languages that are rare or almost unknown, or just some kind of special code language between a child of God and his/her Father.
If a child of God is earnestly seeking God, his Father will not give him something fake or spurious. I think Jesus taught that when He said, "If you then, being human/evil give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?" (paraphrased). He just finished saying that if a child asks for bread an earthly father would not give him a stone, etc.
Someone who earnestly seeks tongues will speak in tongues, almost guaranteed.
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
1. Fruit! Yes, it's what really matters. Love, joy, peace, etc. And then there is the way men will know that we are Christ's disciples: that we have love one for another. Does speaking in tongues help us with the fruit? Does it help us love one another?
2. When someone speaks in tongues, but does not show the fruit of the spirit, does that mean it was fake?
3. When someone who does show the fruit of the Spirit, but does not speak in tongues, what does that tell us? Or do you think that is not possible?
4. But what about tongues in an Apostolic church (or PAW, or COGIC, or AG)? Is that ever fake? Look at the "initial evidence" doctrine. If speaking in tongues can be faked, then what value does it have as "evidence"?
5. Someone who earnestly seeks tongues will speak in tongues, almost guaranteed.
1. Praying in tongues is to edify (build up) a person. This could help develop fruit (like love) if the person really yields to the Lord during this prayer time and is not just repeating sounds he has heard.
2. might be fake, might not. the person might just need to grow in the Lord
The Corinthian church was big on speaking with tongues. They were enriched in everything by Him in all utterance and came behind in no gift (1 Cor 1:5-6) but they had disorder in the church and moral problems in their lives. Tongues is not a badge of spirituality or holiness or righteousness or "the evidence" that the Holy Ghost is living within.
3. Yes, I believe it is possible to display the fruit of the Spirit and not speak with tongues. I believe that when a person sincerely invites Jesus in, Jesus does come in as the Holy Spirit or Spirit of Christ. Lots of people have taken that step of faith but have not spoken with tongues (many of them do not even believe in speaking with tongues). In my opinion, the tongues experience is something promised to Christians as "the promise of the Father" or an endowment of power. If we are honest we could probably all think of folks who do not believe in speaking with tongues who have more of the fruit of the Spirit in their lives than some of the folks we know who speak with tongues.
4. Sure speaking with tongues can be faked. I think some of us have placed too much value on speaking with tongues as a measurement of a person's spirituality. Kids are forced to the altar to "pray through" because some well-meaning saint thinks they are cold or backslid, and the only way the poor kid can get away from the altar is to put on the show of speaking with tongues. Some folks love to show off their tongues to display their superior spirituality over their brothers and sisters.
5. Yes, folks are conditioned to speak with tongues. Some go back to the altar time and time again seeking this experience that will bring "salvation" to them. Finally, all wrung out and exhausted they yield enough to speak with tongues. Everyone around them rejoices and now they are in the "little flock" that makes up the "true church " and will make the rapture.
Please don't take this as being anti-tongues or anti-charismatic.
I believe in speaking with tongues.
I pray in tongues often.
But let's not make it more than what it is.
__________________
Sam also known as Jim Ellis
Apostolic in doctrine
Pentecostal in experience
Charismatic in practice
Non-denominational in affiliation
Inter-denominational in fellowship
There are multiplied millions that are filled with the Holy Ghost and live sanctified lives that have never heard of any Baptism in Jesus name - just as Johns disciples.
Just like Johns disciples, they must be baptized in the NAME to be saved. A title doesnt carry the authority of WHO a person is, thats what a name does.... Hence Jesus said to be baptized in the NAME of, and Peter defined what the name was.....
The Bible says that we have been purchased..... If I was to write a check to buy something but sign it as "Son, Husband, Minister" you wouldnt be able to make the transaction happen, because that is only describing terms of who I am in relation to other people, and doesnt carry my authority as the account holder...likewise when Jesus purchased me, He didnt just put His relationships to me, He put the authority of His name on me.......
There are multiplied millions that are filled with the Holy Ghost and live sanctified lives that have never heard of any Baptism in Jesus name - just as Johns disciples.
"Never heard" of it? How could this be, if they read the Bible ?? In the New Testament, we don't see the Apostles baptizing any other way but into the name of Jesus.
Is it that they never heard of it, or that they just don't pay it much mind?
I suspect in too many cases, it's the latter. I have come across more than a few Trinitarians who are fully aware of the doctrine of Jesus name baptism, but who simply brush it aside as unimportant, a non-issue.
As soon as John's disciples became aware of what was required of them as far as Jesus name baptism, they submitted to it. Too many Trinitarians would rather argue and rationalize their position, trying to justify themselves, rather than obey the the Apostles' NT teaching and practice in this regard.
Its apparent to me that since many Trinitarians view Jesus name baptism as a "Oneness-related" or "UPC" doctrine, rather than what it is -- a New Testament doctrine, many of them feel that to get re-baptized over in Jesus name would be to capitulate to "those people" and "their doctrine". Its unfortunate that some would allow to allow stubbornness, pride, and/or misplaced denominational loyalties to cloud their best judgment, rather than simply obey what God wants them to do.
__________________ http://endtimeobserver.blogspot.com
Daniel 12:3 And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the firmament; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars for ever.
"Never heard" of it? How could this be, if they read the Bible ?? In the New Testament, we don't see the Apostles baptizing any other way but into the name of Jesus.
Is it that they never heard of it, or that they just don't pay it much mind?
I say that they don't pay attention. Unless the Word has changed being baptized in Jesus name is required for salvation.
My soul followeth hard after thee....Love one another with a pure heart fervently. 
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