Christs Two natures are what?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Iron_Bladder

But what are they called? is the Deity the Father and the Humanity the Son, or is Jesus Christ not the Father and the Son at all? If jesus Christ is the father and he is also the Son, in what sense is christ father and Son, hey I'd really like to know your opinion. Almost all Oneness folk whom I;'ve ever met have said that the Father is Jesus' deity and the Son is Jesus' humanity, so therefore in Oneness the Son isn't God, but is a man in whom God then indwells, this is known a the almighty God IN Christ.

You were already answered.
His two natures are called Deity and Humanity. There are no names given to natures.

The Divine nature OF The Father is in Christ's humanity ontologically united, but not mixed or fused. The Divine nature of the Son IS the Divine nature of the Father Rom 8:9

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Iron_Bladder

OK so if the Son is divine and as God is eternal, as that's one of his divine attributes, creatorship is another (Isaiah 44:24), then that would make the Son acording to you both an eternal Son (a Son who has existed as the Son eternally) and also the creator.

Extrapolate a bit further back in your reasoning beyond SON. The SON is the person of Jesus manifested in flesh. Jesus is the eternal one. Not the Son. The Son had a beginning. In fact the only reason the bible gives for the title SON is an anthropomorphic reason. The Father impregnated Mary and she birthed a child, making the Son of this mother named Mary and the Father. How can the Son be eternal unless Mary is also eternal? You cannot have an eternal Son without both an eternal Father and Mother. And since this is not the case, the Son is not eternal.

Since the PERSON who is the Son is the same Person who is the Father, and the PERSON is eternal, we see the deity in the Son. The Son does not have to be eternal in order for the person who is the Son to be eternal.

You can't have it both ways, if you deny that the Son is eternal and creator, then like the JWs and Unitarians your actually claiming that the Son isn't YHWH GOD, but is a part of the creation by YHWH.

Incorrect. If there is a SINGLE PERSON who is eternal, and manifested as Father, and then also as Son only through incarnation and onward, then the Son is not eternal, but His person is.

You're welcome!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Iron_Bladder

So really to you only the Father possesses divine attributes, the Son isn't YHWH God himself, but is a mer projection or manifestation of YHWH God who is the Father.

Incorrect. The PERSON of God is eternal and has always been deity. But this person took upon Himself the nature of humanity as well through incarnation alone. The person existed before the incarnation existed. And the incarnation involved human nature. There is no Son without human nature. And since human nature is not eternal, the Son is not eternal either. God took upon Himself the nature of humanity -- the nature of Abraham, which is human. Sonship cannot exist with fatherhood and motherhood. We cnanot change definitions of words as trinitarianism does with the term SON. There is no such thing as a Son without both a mother and father. Therefore, since the mother is not eternal, the Son never can be and never was eternal.

Since the Person of God was incarnate, then the Son is not a mere projection of God, but is God in very person. But there is only One Person.

Look Mr Blume, what your really saying is that the Son according to Oneness folk like you isn't eternal, creator, omnipresent, omnipotent or immutible as the Son, as the Son doesn't possess any of these divine attributes.

Incorrect. The Son's PERSON, which is the same Person as the Father and Holy Ghost, is eternal. This Person of God existed at one time without ever having incarnated Himself. Therefore, the Son is not eternal, but His person is.

It's really quite simple.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by OGIA

Excellent post! And, as you are seeing, IB is simply an objector. His request for "clarification" is for purposes of argument. If he can't understand what you posted above (and in your previous post), God help him! But, we know, that's the only One who can anyway, right?

Thanks!

The entire error our friend is manifesting is the thought that natures are persons, and they are not. As I said, and he never answered this, an apple has the nature of being red. But red is not an apple.

Jesus Christ is the eternal God. He manifested in flesh, and for the first time, the Person of God had a human nature. Many other beings have the same human nature, namely every human who ever lived and will live. So if human nature is God's person, then we are all gods. lol. But we know better than that. Our friend never thought of that, though.

Divine nature is not only different than human nature, for obvious reasons, but is also different since there is only One Being who possesses it. God. Many beings possess human nature. Only one Being possesses divine nature.

So, the idea of natures being persons is most incorrect.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Incorrect. If there is a SINGLE PERSON who is eternal, and manifested as Father, and then also as Son only through incarnation and onward, then the Son is not eternal, but His person is.

You're welcome!

Whether it's a matter of morality and just not trying to understand what you posted or his cognizant ability in communication and understanding, I can promise you I have told him that over and over and over for the last 8 years or so....It's been many years, probably more than 7

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Whether it's a matter of morality and just not trying to understand what you posted or his cognizant ability in communication and understanding, I can promise you I have told him that over and over and over for the last 8 years or so....It's been many years, probably more than 7

Whew!

Why would anyone want to deny such a beautiful truth as Oneness?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Whew!

Why would anyone want to deny such a beautiful truth as Oneness?

Well it's not that he will deny the truth...it's that you could say verbatim "Father and Son are the same Yahweh God" and he will turn around and say "No! You don't believe that. You believe the Son is a mere man and someone one other than God"

In other words, you are not wasting your breath here because he will never accept the truth, you are wasting your breath because when you say "the sky is blue" he will deny you believe the sky is blue.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

You were already answered.
His two natures are called Deity and Humanity. There are no names given to natures.

The Divine nature OF The Father is in Christ's humanity ontologically united, but not mixed or fused. The Divine nature of the Son IS the Divine nature of the Father Rom 8:9

So is Christ the Father and the Son ..... yes or no? If yes, what do the words; 'Father' and 'Son' mean to you in your theology Praxeas?

Originally Posted by mfblume

Whew!

Why would anyone want to deny such a beautiful truth as Oneness?

John 8:24, that's why

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Well it's not that he will deny the truth...it's that you could say verbatim "Father and Son are the same Yahweh God" and he will turn around and say "No! You don't believe that. You believe the Son is a mere man and someone one other than God"

In other words, you are not wasting your breath here because he will never accept the truth, you are wasting your breath because when you say "the sky is blue" he will deny you believe the sky is blue.

But Praxeas almost every cult and hersy will admit that Jesus is God! The issue isn't one of words but of meanings, what does a Mormon, Trinitarian, JW and Oneness person mean when they say; 'Jesus is God.' sadly the answer is completely different things with regard to the application of divine attributes to the nature of the Father and the Son.

Most cults will say that the Son (Jesus) is God, but will then deny that the Son is eternal, immutible, creator, omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient etc. The Bible never states that those who say; 'Jesus is God' are saved or even can be saved. Salvation is dependent upon the application of every divine attribute to the Son which is also applied to the Father, so that if a person were to say that God is eternal or the Father is eternal, but the Son is not eternal, then that person has broken John 8:24.

Likewise the Bible teaches that the Father and the Son are both omnipresent (as the Father and also as the Son), so if a cult say the JWs were to deny this truth then once again; John 8:24. You see a person cannot be a true Christian simply by saying 'jesus is God' becasue every cult also affirms this and then qualifies either the word 'jesus' or the word 'God' to mean that he;s only called God but he doesn't possess any divine attributes (as the Son). So once again John 8:24, the Son is YHWH and those who deny this such as JWs, Mormons, Unitarians etc cannot be saved.