The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Of value, yes.

For the purpose of justification and righteousness, no.

BTW... you don't see the Jews having a separate way into heaven outside of Messiah do you?

seriously you go off on tangents...

justification..... God judges your reponse "just" THAT IS IT! When you come before him to offer yourself in covenant/offering your heart must be "considered/reckoned" JUST to obtain citizenship in Christ. Thus if he asks you to be baptized to enter covenant which is to take upon Christ death unto newness of life which a covenant brings.... is that a work like God asked Abraham in Gen 15 to...


Gen 15:9 He said to him, "Bring me a heifer three years old, a female goat three years old, a ram three years old, a turtledove, and a young pigeon."

is that works of ourselves?

[Jeffrey]

[QUOTE=TheLegalist;895888]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

The law provided for SIN! HELLO! JUst as our new covenant provides for SIN! CHRIST and turning from it and asking for forgiveness from the heart.

That is why this scripture is true....

Luk 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and statutes of the Lord.

Oh my... you are using this random scripture as a PROOF TEXT?? Are you serious? First, get out of the KJV for a moment. Second, what does the text say. Law did not provide for sin, it made sin even worse by making it transgression (Paul in Romans). There was no providing in the Law. Sure, one could argue it was to be a guidepost to avoid sin, but all it did, because of our issues, is make our sins before God even worse!

The fact is what you said in the latter is your salvation "Turning from it, and asking forgiveness." That, my friend, IS a works-based theology if that is how you define how the covenant is maintained. It's maintained because God is faithful to it.

It is your who set up false issues and paradigms in your mind.
?

Who said we didn't the point is OBEDIENCE IS JUDGED UNTO PROMISE! IT WAS TRUE WITH ABRAHAM AND NOW!
Interesting. For Abraham, you get stuck on obedience, whle Paul was stuck on faith. Perhaps a little leading to how you read the Story?


OFF THE HOOK to DO HIS COMMANDMENTS TO ABIDE and be judged FAITHFUL as ABRAHAM to OBTAIN THE PROMISE???????

YES! Off the hook. Not off the hook so we can try and deserve it again, or try again so we can maybe be perfect this time -- OFF THE HOOK. Soak in that for a moment. Don't move on so quickly. Amazing isn't it! Faithful -- full of faith, continue trusting God. When sin abounds, it's an issue of unbelief, not just a moral breakdown. If we continue in sin, we eventually end up in unbelief. HE has obtained the promise on our behalf, as God tried to do with Abraham (who was his next choice after Adam).

YOU fail his word with your itching ear doctrine and negate the power of grace to overcome and DO HIS WILL! THAT WAS THE POINT OF THE NEW COVENANT! You doctrine is false and heretical it makes the cross noneffect to overcome by his Spirit. We walk in sanctification as JUDGMENT THAT WE ARE ABIDING BY DOING!

I don't FAIL is word, I believe in the FULFILLMENT of his Word. While I reject "itching ear" uncommitted Christianity, if GRACE itches my ear, then I'll scratch until this baby bleeds. This is the gospel Paul was so excited to preach... and one he had to constantly try to qualify to Judaizers worried about people "getting away with things" who really had their own heart issues about trying to be God.

False? Heretical? It's Jesus and Him CRUCIFIED! I have not negated the power to overcome. We can. We haven't yet, though we have begun. Already/not yet. Entirety of Pauline eschatology. Our justification is in the future, though an event to us in the present.

Eze 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
Eze 11:20 That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
Eze 11:21 But as for them whose heart walketh after the heart of their detestable things and their abominations, I will recompense their way upon their own heads, saith the Lord GOD.

Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

And now his statutes are not on tablets of stone but on hearts. It comes by being in relationship with Him, trusting Him in faith that he is who he claimed himself to be. The eternal God, all-powerful, in control, all-knowing, faithful, a provider, counselor and glorious.

You cling to the "keep my ordinances" as if I don't believe that a person of faith WON'T want to do this --- but my point is, we still fail and still come short. We are perfected ONLY in Christ, meaning Christ didn't possess us or impute perfection into us, rather we are in the Messiah, seen in the Messiah, justified in the Messiah, and the way we stay in the Messiah is a relationship called FAITH.

Your doctrine of keeping ordinances as the security of your salvation wreaks of WORKS, and that is heresy, my friend. And while we're at it... how's that working out for you??



Nice way to ignore every point I made and ASKED for a response SHOW ME THE COVENANT IN GEN 15!

I will ask again is obedience forensic or intrinsic to salvation?

You ask the wrong question. You obsess with obedience, just like a Palestinian Jew. Relax... take a breath. Grace is beautiful. Paul's ultimate words for how to live were "be who you are." You're a Christian, so be that. You follow Jesus, his disciple, so be that. Walk the road with him, despite on your shortcomings and failures. We get better along the way.

(BTW... of course obedience isn't forensic)

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

There is no covenant HERE!

Are we reading the same Bible? Virtually ever scholar of Gen 15 sees a covenant here. And actually, the promise of God began in Gen 12, the stories continues on, and God makes his promises clear in covenantal form.

If Abrahams faith, that Paul points back to, is not the basis of the entire covenant (faith), then I don't know what is.

In case you fail to realize the covenantal language (because the terms of agreement aren't spelled out enough), v18 says 18On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying,(W) "To your offspring I give[c] this land, from(X) the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates, 19the land of the Kenites, the Kenizzites, the Kadmonites, 20the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites and the Jebusites."

[TheLegalist]

[QUOTE=Jeffrey;895919]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

You ask the wrong question. You obsess with obedience, just like a Palestinian Jew. Relax... take a breath. Grace is beautiful. Paul's ultimate words for how to live were "be who you are." You're a Christian, so be that. You follow Jesus, his disciple, so be that. Walk the road with him, despite on your shortcomings and failures. We get better along the way.

(BTW... of course obedience isn't forensic)

Also the Jews/pharisees where not obeident they negated law for there own law. Thus your point is false and has nothing to do with what I said.

That is not what I asked I said is it FORENSIC to salvation if you are saying it's not. Then you ae contradicting everything you have said. forensic = works/obediance are a only a evidence of not related to salvation. Intrinsic says they are interelated to have or obtain eternal life etc....

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

There is no covenant HERE!



SHEESH READ the Bible this is a DIFFRENT COVENANT!

This covenant came about BECAUSE ABRAHAM DID WHAT GOD ASKED in Gen 12!

Gen 12:1 Now the LORD said to Abram, "Go from your country and your kindred and your father's house to the land that I will show you.
Gen 12:2 And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing.
Gen 12:3 I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."
Gen 12:4 So Abram went, as the LORD had told him, and Lot went with him. Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran.
Gen 12:5 And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their possessions that they had gathered, and the people that they had acquired in Haran, and they set out to go to the land of Canaan. When they came to the land of Canaan,
Gen 12:6 Abram passed through the land to the place at Shechem, to the oak of Moreh. At that time the Canaanites were in the land.
Gen 12:7 Then the LORD appeared to Abram and said, "To your offspring I will give this land." So he built there an altar to the LORD, who had appeared to him.


Oh and NOTICE what else GOD REQUIRED HIM TO DO TO ENTER COVENANT FOR "THE LAND!"

NOTICE THE BREAK! God deals what HE PREVIOUSLY had dealt with Abraham about!

Gen 15:7 And he said to him, "I am the LORD who brought you out from Ur of the Chaldeans to give you this land to possess."
Gen 15:8 But he said, "O Lord GOD, how am I to know that I shall possess it?" (OBTAIN IT!)
Gen 15:9 He said to him, "Bring me a heifer three years old, a female goat three years old, a ram three years old, a turtledove, and a young pigeon."
Gen 15:10 And he brought him all these, cut them in half, and laid each half over against the other. But he did not cut the birds in half.
Gen 15:11 And when birds of prey came down on the carcasses, Abram drove them away.
Gen 15:12 As the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell on Abram. And behold, dreadful and great darkness fell upon him.

Gen 15:17 When the sun had gone down and it was dark, behold, a smoking fire pot and a flaming torch passed between these pieces.
Gen 15:18 On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, "To your offspring I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates,

This is not the COVENANT MADE WITH ABRAHAM IN GEN 22 that deals with the offspring in which Gen 15:6 deals with!

I showed this and YOU STILL IGNORE IT! LAND and SEED COVENANTS ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS! BOTH was offered IF he did what was commanded.




God always has reasons to choose it's called God judged his life as a individual. God gives GRACE to the HUMBLE! Many are called FEW CHOSEN.... SAME THEME AS ALWAYS!
Oh so you don't take reformed doctrine but yet you spew it? So you don't have to be obedient he did it for you? That is OSAS as it gets!

God's promise of offspring were from the very beginning.

"Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you. 2(B) And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. 3(C) I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and(D) in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."[b]

Did Paul appeal to Gen 22 or Gen 15, TL? No matter the timing of FULFILLING his promise or elaborating on it further, his promise was from the beginning. "GO and I will give you blessing." Abraham believed God and that was accounted to him as righteousness. Even though he saw the situation with Sarah as impossible, he still believed God.

You're so linear with all of this. God chose Abraham just as he did Moses, Noah, David and you and I. They didn't deserve his choosing. They responded with faith. Stick with Paul here, TL.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

God always has reasons to choose it's called God judged his life as a individual. God gives GRACE to the HUMBLE! Many are called FEW CHOSEN.... SAME THEME AS ALWAYS!
Oh so you don't take reformed doctrine but yet you spew it? So you don't have to be obedient he did it for you? That is OSAS as it gets!

I never said obedience is NOT required. I said you let me know when you perfectly obey him, don't ever screw up, are "faithful" to your part of the deal, and then we can't. BECAUSE you're not faithful to your part of the deal, the Messiah was on your behalf. Your way in is through him, and the way in is still through faith. Faith wants to obey. Grace picks up our sloppy slack along the way.

You are so concerned about people getting away with something Don't you get it, you ARE getting away with something?

Abraham was humble now? Abraham deserved God's choosing now? Where do you get this stuff?

I don't care to discuss "REFORMED" or "BAPTIST" theology. Stick to the discussion.

As far as OSAS, where do you get that? If you live in unbelief (consequently sin), you can lose yourself along the way. I don't believe in OSAS. Quit jumping the gun on me. What that is, though, is SECURITY in the cross of Jesus. No more spiritual paranoia and nervously repenting of everything i can think of because if he "comes right now I won't be in heaven with jesus" mentality.

[Jeffrey]

[QUOTE=TheLegalist;895923]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Also the Jews/pharisees where not obeident they negated law for there own law. Thus your point is false and has nothing to do with what I said.

That is not what I asked I said is it FORENSIC to salvation if you are saying it's not. Then you ae contradicting everything you have said. forensic = works/obediance are a only a evidence of not related to salvation. Intrinsic says they are interelated to have or obtain eternal life etc....

That's simply not true. If you trust Jesus, you obey Jesus. The thread isn't about Christian living, it's about salvation we don't deserve. Get it?

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Are we reading the same Bible? Virtually ever scholar of Gen 15 sees a covenant here. And actually, the promise of God began in Gen 12, the stories continues on, and God makes his promises clear in covenantal form.

this is not true "REFORMED scholars who MUST have a covenant WHERE THERE IS NONE do. Read the BIBLE the covenant is made in Gen 22 and I have pointed this scripture out multiple times.

If Abrahams faith, that Paul points back to, is not the basis of the entire covenant (faith), then I don't know what is.

CONTEXT= what is faith defined as!
HELLO... seriously connect the dots of what I have said multipletime. HIS faith is seen as a whole not just a isolate! James 2 "fulfilled"... when... ISAAC. Thus God judged/considered/thought "it" to him as just or righteous.

In case you fail to realize the covenantal language (because the terms of agreement aren't spelled out enough), v18 says 18On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying,(W) "To your offspring I give[c] this land, from(X) the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates, 19the land of the Kenites, the Kenizzites, the Kadmonites, 20the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites and the Jebusites."

your point? This was not the covenant about offspring as sands of the sea etc... EVEN your reformed theologians say that is not the same covenant.
The covenant is clearly made in Gen 22 if you can't see that your blind.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

seriously you go off on tangents...

justification..... God judges your reponse "just" THAT IS IT! When you come before him to offer yourself in covenant/offering your heart must be "considered/reckoned" JUST to obtain citizenship in Christ. Thus if he asks you to be baptized to enter covenant which is to take upon Christ death unto newness of life which a covenant brings.... is that a work like God asked Abraham in Gen 15 to...


Gen 15:9 He said to him, "Bring me a heifer three years old, a female goat three years old, a ram three years old, a turtledove, and a young pigeon."

is that works of ourselves?

That's ALL justification is??? Really???? Your RESPONSE? Your heart response?

Your heifers and turtle doves all come AFTER Abraham's faith was accounted to him as RIGHTEOUSNESS, not BEFORE.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

This is where you're just wrong, Blume. You see, we CAN'T keep up our end of the bargain.

The new covenant has a part for us to play and we certainly can keep it. That is why we read in Heb 8 that the new covenant solved any problem in man not being able to continue.

But you totally missed my point. The point was that any given covenant has two parties. Us and God, in this case. And we have a part to play. Acts 2:38. And God promised to save BY HIS CROSS those who take part in that covenant.

That was obvious since Abraham on... that's the beauty of the Gospel. The covenantal part of that is God original covenant continued, he'd save those who believe in him by faith. He's made that possible through Jesus. To employ new ways of entering into covenant is simply in error.

Where are you getting this "new ways" thing from? Peter, not me, said Acts 2:38. Jesus, not me, said Luke 24:47-49, the elements of Acts 2:38.

Repentance is what one does BECAUSE OF faith, not to prove their faith.

Strawman argument.

Faith has already happened. We stand justified at that moment.

Only if it is faith that WILL WORK.

The cross makes all the difference in the world. What has not changed is God's everlasting and eternal covenant with His people, which was redeveloped in the New Testament to finally include Gentiles, part of God's plan all along (not just a Plan B repudiation against the Jews).

Nothing was redeveloped. God planned the gentiles to come into this thing since before Adam. Where are you getting these ideas? Redeveloped? The fact is that the new covenant has a part for us to play, and your accusation that baptism and Spirit infilling with tongues being salvation by works is simply and blatantly wrong, since those things are no more salvation by works than faith is. This keeps getting brushed aside, but it is the real issue.

Mike, Is circumcision equivalent to baptism, in terms of it being/or not being a "work?"

What is all this? The simple issue is baptism saves and only because it is reliant upon the cross. Period.

The issue is that we feel we can do something to earn salvation, when in fact, those who have received salvation did so after God chose them -- the Spirit called them, they responded with a heart of faith.

Which is where baptism comes in. It is a necessary response by faith.

I would say that if I spoke in tongues and then was vindicated as saved, I feel mighty proud of my own participation in my salvation.

You refuse to listen. Tongues can IN NO WAY be a means of salvation by works. God gives the utterance. How many times mus we say this?

If I toiled for 5 hours at an altar to search through evils in my heart, I feel like I earned my salvation. If I were to whip my back in an effort to make me more morally disciplined, I certainly would feel like I've earned my place.

Removing things FROM our lives does not save us. God alone saves. Salvation is THINGS ADDED to our lives, and we can add nothing. All we can do is remove to clear the way for God to add.

Mike, the blood has already been applied once for all people. It was offered at the time of the Messiah's death. The access key has been turned. We enter into that covenant by faith alone.

Wrong. Faith alone is NOT the covenant. Why did Peter not say "What must you do? Simply have faith!" in Acts 2:38?