The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

correct his "faith' is judged. (Not that this doesn't have technical merit, but why do you use language Paul did not so often? Over and over again you say faith. In the case of us before God, we are already found guilt. Our actions can't be further judged. We are GUILTY. We are justified through Jesus.

The reason I use judge all the time because that is what happens. Everything we do has judgment or a "reactive result" Breathing air has a judgment on the body. Our actions have judgment before God and law is always there. back to the subject... I can't even agree with you here and your use of judgement in such critical ways. If we get what we deserve by our actions, we all deserve death. You included!

1) Gen 15:6 is not about sin Right with God has nothing to do with sin????
2) Gen 15:6 is not directly about salvation more head scratching. Then you can take salvation, I'll take being made right before God.
3) Gen 15:6 IS ABOUT God doing justice to Abrahams action. WRONG. Paul's entire point to use Abraham was not his action, it was his faith. We go circles on this. You get playful with the text, but Paul wasn't using Abram as an example for how perfectly obedient and upstanding of a guy he was... he used him as an example of faith.
4) Gen 15:6 is not about covenant. Wrong again.
5) Gen 12 you state a covenant is there, then turn around and say it's in Gen 15:6 you can't have it both ways. Why can't you? Why is everything an either/or???
6) What God wants to do and coming INTO actual covenant are two different things. ?
7) Gen 15 clearly shows God coming INTO the land covenant though God discussed what he "wanted" to do. It was not covenant yet. Hmmmm...
8) God discusses in Gen 15:3-4 what he "wants" to do and explains to Abraham his "plans". It takes following to be faithful and to bring it to completion. As faith is defined by the context of what is said and the resulting action. Wow. That's very creative, TL. It was accounted to him as righteousness. That's pretty much a present reality, not a carrot "if you can be a perfect little boy you'll get this." It's a GIFT! Undeserved. Freely given.
9) Gen 12 Abraham is told to move and he does so. Once stopped because of his action he asks God "how" to possess... God makes covenant by asking him to do and by doing He makes covenant concerning the land which would go unto his seed. Even though it would go unto his seed ,the multiplying the seed and promise was another aspect not yet realized. You compartmentalize covenant, and I find it interesting I admit. But those categories aren't in the story. Remember to read this as a story not a contract. It's a WONDERFUL story. A guy deserving death gets chosen, by faith he believes God and its accounted to him as righteousness. This is the story of Abram's life. Out of that faith comes obedience, but it's faith nonetheless that reckons him righteousness.
10) Abraham had not obtained a covenant toward his seed multiplying... Explain.
11) we see the consistent pattern of God asking and Abraham doing and the result is covenant again in Gen 17.... What we see is reassurance along the way from him first promise. "Go and I will show you a city" this it the movement of the story. Along the way, in victories of faith, Abram is assured, and more details of the promise are made clear to us.

(If God was so tit-for-tat with covenant, and his faithfulness to the covenant are dependent on us, then he would not have sent His Son to die. He did so because he is faithful to covenant and determined to find a way for us all. What he guaranteed by faith, was fulfilled in Jesus, and is still accessible by faith.

Gen 17:1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am God Almighty; walk before me, and be blameless,
Gen 17:2 that I may make my covenant between me and you, and may multiply you greatly."

Do you know the meaning of the word blameless? Are you blameless? Interested in how you interpret this verse. Again, you read this as a linear contract and not as a story.

Notice it is STILL future of what God wanted to do. It is called a progressive covenantry. One leads to another. He speaks of the future covenant yet speaks of being under covenant. How is this covenant again brought about? By him doing just like before. First, this is not the first time God says these promises to Abram. How you get around that, I don't know. Second, you make a good point about "may" -- the NIV says this:

I will confirm my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your numbers."

In other words, circumcision, first introduced here, is a way God is confirming his covenant. This, by the way, contradicts your plans to somehow say Abram earned the covenant for the first time in Gen 22.

With that said, are you familiar with Paul's already/not yet theology? You can probably guess where I'd go with that.

What is the covenant he is supposed to walk TO obtain "that I may make" in the future?

Gen 17:9 And God said unto Abraham, And as for thee, thou shalt keep my covenant, thou, and thy seed after thee throughout their generations.
Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee: every male among you shall be circumcised.

Is this the covenant in Gen 22? No! It is the covenant to obtain "that I may make" a covenant. Because God says he wants to do something doesn't mean it's covenant. God judges and will be faithful if you are faithful to his Word. Just like today. We have covenant to receive the promises yet we have not OBTAINED YET the covenant/fulfillment of eternal life. When we are judged faithful, we obtain that covenant of promise.

What translation are you using?

Then God said to Abraham, "As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised.

This IS MY COVENANT, not someday I'll give you a covenant. It's the same story. He's revealing more. The journey began with faith, a destination unknown. God is pulling back layers and showing Abram the future as we travel with him. As a demonstration of his faith, he is walking right before God. This is certainly neither to say that Abram was perfect -- lest we remember his lying about his wife, definitely an issue of unbelief. But God is faithful, and Abram, though perhaps hiccups in faith, kept the faith. God's plan is revealed here for Israel, in fact. Through YOU, this is how it will work, through your generations. Make sure they know me. Make sure the trust me. That's critical. As a sign of that covenant, here's circumcision. Keep this going. (Israel turned it into ethnic elitism instead)

Abraham OBTAINED by obedience that which by God's grace he offered.... ?"THAT I MAY MAKE" why would the seed come about and be blessed....

Gen 22:14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovah-jireh. As it is said to this day, In the mount of Jehovah it shall be provided.
Gen 22:15 And the angel of Jehovah called unto Abraham a second time out of heaven,
Gen 22:16 and said, By myself have I sworn, saith Jehovah, because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son,
Gen 22:17 that in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heavens, and as the sand which is upon the seashore. And thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies. LANGUAGE SOUNDS AWFUL FAMILIAR. TL!!!
Gen 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed. Because thou hast obeyed my voice.

This is the covenant "that I may make" God tells Isaac WHY it came about. Was it mental assent of promise which one was justified or the WORKS that justified Abraham by faith response? Friend, it's backwards. Mental ascent does not equal faith. So quit postulating that. I've conceded that I wont' call you a BR, to you can put away the mental ascent game. Faith and believing are deeper than cognitive chambers of reality.

Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
So Gen 22 wasn't even the covenant, it wasn't until 26 now?


TO OBTAIN AND INHERIT LAND PROMISE!

To bring upon and confirm the promise by covenant are two different things.

concerning Paul.... he is talking about a certain aspect how a action of faith is "judged/considered" thus one stands turned to God and his heart be acceptable unto God. Abraham was considered righteous not simply by circumcision but well before circumcision. Was circumcision a righteous response? Yes but it in itself was not righteousing but God's judgment of action is what del Where do you get this from? Curious. "judged/considered?" "certian aspect? You said it and then backed up on it. He was considered righteous BEFORE the action. cares right or just. Not our works speaking "judgment" outside of God.

Very lengthy here... I couldn't respond to all.

I think it would help if you viewed this story as a story, which is how it was passed down generation to generation. It's a story of God's promise to Israel. It's not a legal document.

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

First, he's about as antinomian as you are a pure, bona fide legalist.

WOW, really... imagine that... I am legalist! the problem is that Word can mean and be taken many ways. It's all upon who is defining. Jesus was a legalist as was John James etc... To you baptism for remission is legalism.... oh poor me. I am a legalist.

Second, where did he say salvation did not require faith? If I recall, that's his entire argument.

Again READ THE COMMENT! I SAID COMPLETELY UNCONDITIONAL AND UNMERITED! Do you really understand that the depth of that?

You cannot enter into covenant unto OBTAINING SALVATION WITHOUT NEGATING ALL and accepting the cost. THAT IS NOT SIMPLE MENTAL BELIEF.

Third, I think our major disagreement is how you see Abraham's "being made right with God" and your absurd claim that Abraham's reckoned righteousness is not salvific (I'll get back to that later).

My point is within ITSELF it was about judging his response "faithful". You ignored what I said about it. What did i say? As usual you don't pay attention

2) Gen 15:6 is not directly about salvation WHICH IT IS NOT! Abraham was not asking about being saved no more than Phinehas was about salvation...

Psa 106:30 Then Phinehas stood up and intervened, and the plague was stayed.
Psa 106:31 And that was counted to him as righteousness ...

Again it's about God's justice applied toward action. You can ignore that all you want.

Finally, no one makes a mockery of doing his commandments, Legalist.

Yes, you do! Because salvation is not obtained without doing his commandments. YOU MOCK HIS WORDS AS NOT DOING TO OBTAIN! If that is not mockery I don't know what is.
For you to say obedience unto salvation is not intrinsic then you ignore what the covenant is. It's A CONTRACT to obtain. You must stand right at heart to ENTER COVENANT that means DOING SOMETHING! you are fulfilling his request to CAST ASIDE ALL TO OBTAIN! Until you can understand the basics it's pointless. Ignore the costs. It's not FREE it's FREELY GIVEN to those who OBEY UNTO FOLLOWING! You can say I have UNTIL YOU FOLLOW WHICH IS DOING!

You guys obsess with this. We are talking about initiation. Getting in the family. It's a faith family. That's the point.

and you still don't get it. Again you fail to understand the one cannot TAKE UPON ANYTHING WITHOUT GIVING UP! That is as much a work as anything could be to OBTAIN!

Joh 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. ESV

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Very lengthy here... I couldn't respond to all.

I think it would help if you viewed this story as a story, which is how it was passed down generation to generation. It's a story of God's promise to Israel. It's not a legal document.

HAHAHAHAHA now that is a new one! HAHAHAHAHA sheeesh I'm done it's pointless.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Timmy

Dude! Speak for yourself! Seriously!

lol

But, you know what I meant. As far as anything significant towards attaining righteousness is concerned, we cannot improve ourselves.

It was in the context of notofworks' words:

And I also really, really struggle with your theology that one can improve oneself and thereby, receive this "gift."

Why did you not say something when he said it?

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

WOW, really... imagine that... I am legalist! the problem is that Word can mean and be taken many ways. It's all upon who is defining. Jesus was a legalist as was John James etc... To you baptism for remission is legalism.... oh poor me. I am a legalist.

Perhaps you misunderstood my statement.

Calling him antinomian was like him calling you a legalist. Though I don't know enough about your theology to qualify such a statement, I'm in essence saying you are accusing him of something that is a polar extreme, just like legalism is.

Just playing fair with your word games.

[Jeffrey]

Again it's about God's justice applied toward action. You can ignore that all you want.

What was Abraham's action in Gen 15? How does Paul interpret that action?

You've yet to address that.

[Jeffrey]

Quote:
Finally, no one makes a mockery of doing his commandments, Legalist.
Yes, you do! Because salvation is not obtained without doing his commandments. YOU MOCK HIS WORDS AS NOT DOING TO OBTAIN! DO YOU SPEAK CAVE MAN? If that is not mockery I don't know what is.
For you to say obedience unto salvation is not intrinsic then you ignore what the covenant is. It's A CONTRACT to obtain. You must stand right at heart to ENTER COVENANT that means DOING SOMETHING! you are fulfilling his request to CAST ASIDE ALL TO OBTAIN! Until you can understand the basics it's pointless. Ignore the costs. It's not FREE it's FREELY GIVEN to those who OBEY UNTO FOLLOWING! You can say I have UNTIL YOU FOLLOW WHICH IS DOING!

Until I can find a way to differently articulate this to, herein is why we spin in circles. I can't even come close to agreeing with you on what you've said here.

You may as well change the word "obtain" to "attain."

Sometimes you speak in such broken English (KJV vernacular at that) that it's hard to keep up with you. You're much smarter than I, so that makes it all the more difficult.

We are not saved by doing, we are saved by believing. By believing, we follow his commandments. Even then, we are not guaranteed to never struggle with the influence of sin, or to perfectly comply with ALL of his commandments.

The Story of God for you is a contractual litigation over a love story of God and his creation. You don't realize how dramatic it is. You did nothing to deserve grace. It was both freely given and freely received. All he's asked for, and all he's asked for since Adam, was your trust, faith, belief. Those govern all other matters.

Further, you minimize faith into a box of mental ascent. Consequently, confession means nothing to you, except reciting of words ("say what you want, doing is obtaining").

I also NEVER said obedience was not intrinsic (you use your own vernacular "obedience unto salvation" at your own whims), in fact I explicitly made this clear. However, you believe this is your grand evidence, your AH HA moment that faith then is not faith until it's fully lived out. I couldn't disagree more adamantly. Jesus has accepted our faith. He's also offered us the promise of salvation now, not a pending, in-between until the Judgement Day, until our last breath to wait and see if we've screwed up along the way. We have in the present, a form of what we shall inherit in the future.

It bothers you to not have a way to earn the free gift. I believe it bothers God all the more for us to diminish his gift with some sort of merit on our own part, rather than accepting it and living in it.

In the end, this conversation does more than cover "when is a person saved?" I mean, both you and I lead new believers in confession (hopefully you do), repentance and to water baptism. We both tell the believers they can receive the Spirit baptism (though you and I have starkly contrasted viewpoints on this). But the "when" is almost a "Gospel issue" to me. It's the whole story. It affects missiology, church culture and the entire way we view our relationship with God. It's pretty darn critical.

God is faithful to his covenant, even where we didn't live up to the terms.

[Jeffrey]

Joh 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. ESV

Ah yes, TL. Let's talk about John's Gospel.

What is the theme of John's Gospel? Believing. 3:16-18 perhaps being the thesis.

As I referenced 3:36, I'm not sure where you get "obey" from, though I was prepared to interact with you on that.

36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. KJV

34-36"The One that God sent speaks God's words. And don't think he rations out the Spirit in bits and pieces. The Father loves the Son extravagantly. He turned everything over to him so he could give it away—a lavish distribution of gifts. That is why whoever accepts and trusts the Son gets in on everything, life complete and forever! And that is also why the person who avoids and distrusts the Son is in the dark and doesn't see life. All he experiences of God is darkness, and an angry darkness at that." The Message

36Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him." NIV

34 For he is sent by God. He speaks God’s words, for God gives him the Spirit without limit. 35 The Father loves his Son and has put everything into his hands. 36 And anyone who believes in God’s Son has eternal life. Anyone who doesn’t obey the Son will never experience eternal life but remains under God’s angry judgment.” NLT -- appears some varying translations of this verse... I think "obey" misses the parallel of the verse, "if you believe this, if you don't believe this." That's the structure. But either way, I can accept "obedience to the Son." HELLO! I'm not against obedience! I'm just don't see salvation because of yours or my obedience.

The ENTIRE theme of John is BELIEVE BELIEVE BELIEVE. Every story. Every parable. Every miracle. All the issues center on belief. Don't miss the forest for the trees.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

HAHAHAHAHA now that is a new one! HAHAHAHAHA sheeesh I'm done it's pointless.

Don't rush to judgement what I'm saying. Salvation is only fulfilled by Jesus because God has realized there are obligations to his Law. I get that. But your view of our relationship back to God is through a legal lens. That ends, when you realize the whole court room got interrupted. Someone innocent decided to take the blame for our crime, he pardoned us and let us go. That's the legal part of it. The metanarrative here is this: God loves us, saw that we deserved death and instead offered us life by faith. He paid the debt knowing we can't, in the process of time before us, never could. We continually screwed up. Fell short. Get it? So he paid that debt. All he's asked for, is what he's asked for all along, TRUST IN ME!

So your rushing to judgement is a little premature.

If you want to talk legalities here, this ........ about obeying commands means squat. You deserve to be beheaded and annihilated. How's that for justice.

[Jeffrey]

TL, also, let's talk Justification. I believe your view of justification gets clouded by esoteric language you enjoy "judging acts as just, etc" -- but I challenge you to articulate justification without being so near-sighted. What does it mean to be justified? What role does it play in conversion?