I thought apostolics believed Jesus is the Father?

[shazeep]

by all means, ignore the parenthesis then

[randyabrown]

Originally Posted by shazeep

what i dislike about this common conflation is that you had to add the parenthesis; and i happen to disagree with the "human nature" one, on moral grounds. I may be wrong, but your explanation reads like, "You have seen Me acting natural, and also divine..."
i have never had a problem with Christ's deity as the Son. Also, this explanation is inadequate to explain some of Christ's replies on this subject...but honestly, it is a subject that can only cause division, i think. i have yet to see on of these threads come to any conclusions. They inevitably strike me as a group of people expecting to define God more perfectly, or see God more fully, when Christ's "if you have seen Me, you have seen the Father" may be interpreted to mean something else.

Why wouldn't Christ just say "I AM the Father?" For the very simple reason that He is not the Father, in some important sense.

If you want to say Jesus is not the Father then you have some verses to explain:

Jesus is the Everlasting Father - Isaiah 9:6

We only have 1 Father - Malachi 2:10, Ephesians 4:6

All the fullness of the godhead is in Jesus, which has to include the Father - Colossians 2:9

Jesus said he was the Father - John 8:19, John 8:24

Jesus is the I Am - Exodus 3:14

When you see Jesus you see the one that sent him - John 12:45, John 14:7

Jesus said the Father was in him - John 10:38

Jesus said he was the Father of over-comers - Revelation 21:6-7

Jesus said he would not leave us fatherless but that he would come to us - John 14:18

Jesus said he would send the Comforter - John 16:7

- The Father would send the Comforter - John 14:26

Jesus said he would draw men to God - John 12:32

- The Father draws us - John 6:44

Jesus will raise believers in the last day - John 6:40

- the Father gives life and raises us - Romans 4:17; I Corinthians 6:14

Jesus said he would answer prayer - John 14:14

- the Father is the one that answers prayer - John 16:23

Jesus is the one that sanctifies - Ephesians 5:26

- the Father is the one that sanctifies - Jude 1

Jesus was manifested to take away sin - John 1:29-31

- the Father is the one that was manifested to take away sin - I John 3:1-6

[shazeep]

well, i wouldn't say that Christ was not God, but rather why conflate two offices of God? But we are not going to settle the Oney/Trinny debate in this thread, either; it is meant to divide. If i agree with you, what changes? It is a lawyer debate. It has no substance.

[Praxeas]

I think when we understand rabbinical thought then and how they viewed God three fold, a lot of this makes more sense

God is a transcendent personal being. He could only be experienced by His Memra and Shekina..His Speaking and His dwelling presence on earth.|

The Shekina refers to the Glory often seen/experienced by Moses or in the temple

Jesus is the Memra/Logos made flesh. He is the Presence of God dwelling with man

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word(Memra), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 This one was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things came into being through him, and apart from him not one thing came into being that has come into being.

Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh and took up residence(Shekina) among us, and we saw his glory, glory as of the one and only from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Joh 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, in order that he may be with you forever—
Joh 14:17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world is not able to receive, because it does not see him or know him. You know him, because he resides with you and will be in you.
Joh 14:18 "I will not leave you as orphans; I am coming to you.

Jesus is distinct from the Transcendent Father in Mode

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by J.A. Perez

I believe Jesus clearly said, and I am paraphrasing.

If you do not believe I am the Father you will die in your sins.

John 8:19-24
Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yetcome.

Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.

And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

Verse 24.
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

I see this.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by randyabrown

And we would expect to see that because he was also a man. Two natures - both God and man. His deity is the Father (Jehovah - the only God there is) and his humanity is the Son of God. As a man he prayed; as God he answered prayer.

I see this.

[Michael The Disciple]

Prax

Jesus is distinct from the Transcendent Father in Mode

I see this.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by shazeep

i could give you 100, but ok.

…68and if I ask a question, you will not answer. 69"But from now on THE SON OF MAN WILL BE SEATED AT THE RIGHT HAND of the power OF GOD." 70And they all said, "Are You the Son of God, then?" And He said to them, "Yes, I am."…(not "I AM," notice; or even "I Am.")

Jesus as a MAN is at the right hand of God.

12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; Heb 10:12

In his deity he is THE GOD. In his humanity he is the man Jesus Christ.

To believe he is both God and man simultaneously is to understand the doctrine of Christ. Isaiah 9:6

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Jesus as a MAN is at the right hand of God.

12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; Heb 10:12

In his deity he is THE GOD. In his humanity he is the man Jesus Christ.

To believe he is both God and man simultaneously is to understand the doctrine of Christ. Isaiah 9:6

Amen! And that is why we baptize in the NAME OF JESUS CHRIST, because true believers look to JESUS ALONE for all they need, meaning we see ALL OF GOD in Jesus Christ.

He is our God, manifested in flesh. Oh what a SAVIOUR!

[shazeep]

um, did you really just say "true believers?"
sorry, i just bristle at Rhema-bot things, i guess

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Jesus as a MAN is at the right hand of God.

12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; Heb 10:12

In his deity he is THE GOD. In his humanity he is the man Jesus Christ.

To believe he is both God and man simultaneously is to understand the doctrine of Christ. Isaiah 9:6

yup. i notice the quickest way to call roll on a Pent forum is to have a Oneness/Trinny debate; wonder why that is