Prominent Memphis Area Pastor Resigns

[Monterrey]

Wow!!!!!!!!!

My family went through a situation similar, we are still walking for Jesus!

God is good!

[AreYouReady?]

A blatant statement was made that we can't be saved without a pastor....

There is no biblical definition of what a pastor does in the New Testament church except to feed the sheep the Word. So in this context, we need the Word of God to be saved. Yet, most people in this country can read the Word for themselves and the Holy Ghost can teach them and lead them in the path God wants us to travel. It takes dedication and devotion to God to walk that straight and narrow. Not many people are able to walk this road without a pastor. However, that being said, my Bible says that the blood of Christ is what saves me, not a pastor. And I’ve yet met a pastor in my region that followed after Christ in the way Paul followed Christ.

This is a perfect example of the pastorate position being that of a hireling. Jesus said that the hireling careth not for the sheep. It is obvious that the hireling the people of your assembly has been paying to 'oversee' the matters of the church turned into a little dictator instead of one who cares for the sheep. You have some pastors who become abusive to the people who depend upon him to teach the Word of God and yet, he is under the impression that because he is pastor, he may do whatever he pleases. Severance pay goes to people who have a job position and is being let go for a reason beyond his control. Downsizing, breaking of contracts or the elimination of the position are a few of the frequent reasons people must leave their job. I hardly think that a man who violates the very word he is supposed to feed the people deserves any more pay and should be run out on a rail.

These people who are the board in this church...if they are not representing the church and it’s people, then they likewise should be run out on a rail. Anytime you hear talk of financial pay to someone leaving, an attorney should be present to represent the people who are making that payment.

Personally, not one more penny of any money I earned would continue to go into the pocket of people who broke the trust that was placed in them to oversee the matters of the church.

If you can, find a man who espouses what Brother Been Thin King on these forums practices about handling money and the pastorate. It is a very rare person who appreciates the people he teaches.

This is a sickening mess that will reverberate like an earthquake and shake foundation of man's church system around this country.

Run to the solid rock of Jesus Christ and put your faith in Him only. He will help you to heal from this gross betrayal.

[CC1]

I'm so sorry for you and the rest of the saints in your fellowship, TPCmusician. Praying for you all.

I'm surprised to hear that your former pastor has not confessed his sins to the church body and asked for forgiveness but instead is asking for money.

Ms. Peh,

It really reveals the mindset that they view the church as a business. You would think the embarrassment and shame would be so great they would just slink away but apparently these situations reveal ones true self.

[rgcraig]

We live in a different paradigm so I would have never sat under a pastor like TB anyway but laying aside those differences for a moment I believe your post is exactly how I would feel if I were in your shoes.

For those who think this thread is just idle gossip it will be worth it if just one saint, board member, or pastor reads your post and others and realizes that to protect their church, their pastor, and themselves, they had better have some checks and balances in place.

As President Ronald Reagan once said when asked if he trusted the Soviet Union to keep an arms treaty they had just signed - "trust but verify".

I agree! If this revelation can help just one other church from this type thing happening it's worth it.

My heart just breaks for the innocent people affected by this.

And, TCPMusician, you have a right to be mad and hurt. So glad to hear your focus is on God and your family - we need pastors, but utimately, you are the head of your family reporting directly to God! Praying you and many others!

[StillStanding]

Ms. Peh,

It really reveals the mindset that they view the church as a business. You would think the embarrassment and shame would be so great they would just slink away but apparently these situations reveal ones true self.

:thumbsup This is the first time I've heard of a church giving the former pastor a year's severance pay when he resigned or was fired! There must be threats of lawsuits or something! Amazing!

[exTPCMusician]

:thumbsup This is the first time I've heard of a church giving the former pastor a year's severance pay when he resigned or was fired! There must be threats of lawsuits or something! Amazing!


It was verbally promised during an illegally held board meeting and the board was "pushed into it" with the assistant of Dr. JH and Pastor JK - translation: the board had no clue what their position was and had no backbone and when someone said "BOO" loud enough, they jumped and agreed to it. Ultimately, at the end of the day while THEY too circumvent responsibility and merely say "I'm sorry" I don't think they quite understand the legal and financial hole they too helped dig the church into. My tithes and offerings are going into a savings account until we find a church home. I do not intend to support man's agenda and the false pretense that we were "reaching the city". Nope. We were lining TB's and TB's family's pockets. I ain't scared to say it!

[Tlswift2009]

There is no biblical definition of what a pastor does in the New Testament church except to feed the sheep the Word. So in this context, we need the Word of God to be saved. Yet, most people in this country can read the Word for themselves and the Holy Ghost can teach them and lead them in the path God wants us to travel. It takes dedication and devotion to God to walk that straight and narrow. Not many people are able to walk this road without a pastor. However, that being said, my Bible says that the blood of Christ is what saves me, not a pastor. And I’ve yet met a pastor in my region that followed after Christ in the way Paul followed Christ.

This is a perfect example of the pastorate position being that of a hireling. Jesus said that the hireling careth not for the sheep. It is obvious that the hireling the people of your assembly has been paying to 'oversee' the matters of the church turned into a little dictator instead of one who cares for the sheep. You have some pastors who become abusive to the people who depend upon him to teach the Word of God and yet, he is under the impression that because he is pastor, he may do whatever he pleases. Severance pay goes to people who have a job position and is being let go for a reason beyond his control. Downsizing, breaking of contracts or the elimination of the position are a few of the frequent reasons people must leave their job. I hardly think that a man who violates the very word he is supposed to feed the people deserves any more pay and should be run out on a rail.

These people who are the board in this church...if they are not representing the church and it’s people, then they likewise should be run out on a rail. Anytime you hear talk of financial pay to someone leaving, an attorney should be present to represent the people who are making that payment.

Personally, not one more penny of any money I earned would continue to go into the pocket of people who broke the trust that was placed in them to oversee the matters of the church.

If you can, find a man who espouses what Brother Been Thin King on these forums practices about handling money and the pastorate. It is a very rare person who appreciates the people he teaches.

This is a sickening mess that will reverberate like an earthquake and shake foundation of man's church system around this country.

Run to the solid rock of Jesus Christ and put your faith in Him only. He will help you to heal from this gross betrayal.
My friend; even though there are those Pastors that fall into sin; you cannot diminsh God's plan for His church-Jesus told the Apostle Peter to feed His sheep, and how can they {the sheep} hear without a preacher??? So please don't attempt to sideline God's order for His sheep because you're disappointed by what a Pastor(s) have done; it's not for you to change God's order, and a sheep cannot lead itself; it doesn't matter how much you read-fast, and pray: GOD STILL HAVE PASTOR ACCORDING TO HIS HEART THAT WILL FEED WITH KNOWLEDGE AND UNDERSTANDING-WITHOUT EXCEPTION.

[Tlswift2009]

Ms. Peh,

It really reveals the mindset that they view the church as a business. You would think the embarrassment and shame would be so great they would just slink away but apparently these situations reveal ones true self.
A person unwilling to REPENT for sin(s) is a grave concern, and we must pray that those persons will bring forth FRUIT meet for repentance; remember; God had to send the Prophet Nathan to bring King David to repentance-sometimes we need God's loving persuasion to help bring us to repentance..

[Tlswift2009]

I agree! If this revelation can help just one other church from this type thing happening it's worth it.

My heart just breaks for the innocent people affected by this.

And, TCPMusician, you have a right to be mad and hurt. So glad to hear your focus is on God and your family - we need pastors, but utimately, you are the head of your family reporting directly to God! Praying you and many others!
AMEN!!!! Let God bring total healing to your heart; He can and is able, but we must stay open to God, and it is a time process...

[Tlswift2009]

It was verbally promised during an illegally held board meeting and the board was "pushed into it" with the assistant of Dr. JH and Pastor JK - translation: the board had no clue what their position was and had no backbone and when someone said "BOO" loud enough, they jumped and agreed to it. Ultimately, at the end of the day while THEY too circumvent responsibility and merely say "I'm sorry" I don't think they quite understand the legal and financial hole they too helped dig the church into. My tithes and offerings are going into a savings account until we find a church home. I do not intend to support man's agenda and the false pretense that we were "reaching the city". Nope. We were lining TB's and TB's family's pockets. I ain't scared to say it!
Please know that God can use an individual like yourself in His Kingdom Ministry, and He will lead and direct your footsteps...

[StillStanding]

It was verbally promised during an illegally held board meeting and the board was "pushed into it" with the assistant of Dr. JH and Pastor JK - translation: the board had no clue what their position was and had no backbone and when someone said "BOO" loud enough, they jumped and agreed to it. Ultimately, at the end of the day while THEY too circumvent responsibility and merely say "I'm sorry" I don't think they quite understand the legal and financial hole they too helped dig the church into. My tithes and offerings are going into a savings account until we find a church home. I do not intend to support man's agenda and the false pretense that we were "reaching the city". Nope. We were lining TB's and TB's family's pockets. I ain't scared to say it!

Is the severance pay dependent on TB leaving town? I hope so!

[houston]

Wow!!!!!!!!!

My family went through a situation similar, we are still walking for Jesus!

God is good!

Your pastor ran away with all the pesos??

[Precis]

I do not know if you are oneness apostolic or not, but it matters not. There is NOT ONE SCRIPTURAL OF PROOF THAT A PASTOR IS TO BE OVER A CONGREGATION (SHEEP) OF GOD. There is to be ELDERS ALL having the same authority GOD"S WORD!! Read Acts 14:23; 20:17; Tit.!:5 Mat. 10:1-14; Luke. 10:1-7. We are still under the LAW!! Gal. 3:10 If we practice, up-hold, perform, do any of the Laws that where part of the priesthood Laws then we live in them. Paul uses circumcision as an metaphor and then states any of then Laws. and we practice two that puts us back under the Law and out of Grace. ONE PASTOR RULE AND TITHING. Do not just take what you are told but study the scriptures and live by them NOT A MAN'S WORD.

[Monterrey]

Your pastor ran away with all the pesos??

When we were in Colorado.

[mizpeh]

Ms. Peh,

It really reveals the mindset that they view the church as a business. You would think the embarrassment and shame would be so great they would just slink away but apparently these situations reveal ones true self.

I can't even fathom viewing the kingdom of God like a business.

[Sister Alvear]

I am so sorry things like this happen...
God's work should be done God's way...when I see pastor's that all they talk about is hunting, collecting, antiques, selling and buying...I shiver....

We should have one thing in mind...the souls of men....not getting rich and sleeping on satin pillows...

Well...my opinion is not popular....and I am NOT against God's people having a confortable home, a nice car and the needed things of life. He who had no place to lay His head seldom requires that of us however we should have balance and common sense...

[AreYouReady?]

My friend; even though there are those Pastors that fall into sin; you cannot diminsh God's plan for His church-Jesus told the Apostle Peter to feed His sheep, and how can they {the sheep} hear without a preacher??? So please don't attempt to sideline God's order for His sheep because you're disappointed by what a Pastor(s) have done; it's not for you to change God's order, and a sheep cannot lead itself; it doesn't matter how much you read-fast, and pray: GOD STILL HAVE PASTOR ACCORDING TO HIS HEART THAT WILL FEED WITH KNOWLEDGE AND UNDERSTANDING-WITHOUT EXCEPTION.

Sorry brother. I disagree with you. The word says that we are to eventually grow up and eat meat. Some of you in 'authority' want the people to stay little babies and suck milk and lead people (sheep?) around by the nose till they die.

[Sister Alvear]

Maybe we all ought to go watch Through gates of Spendor....We might learn what it really means to follow Jesus...

[AreYouReady?]

I do not know if you are oneness apostolic or not, but it matters not. There is NOT ONE SCRIPTURAL OF PROOF THAT A PASTOR IS TO BE OVER A CONGREGATION (SHEEP) OF GOD. There is to be ELDERS ALL having the same authority GOD"S WORD!! Read Acts 14:23; 20:17; Tit.!:5 Mat. 10:1-14; Luke. 10:1-7. We are still under the LAW!! Gal. 3:10 If we practice, up-hold, perform, do any of the Laws that where part of the priesthood Laws then we live in them. Paul uses circumcision as an metaphor and then states any of then Laws. and we practice two that puts us back under the Law and out of Grace. ONE PASTOR RULE AND TITHING. Do not just take what you are told but study the scriptures and live by them NOT A MAN'S WORD.

:thumbsup

[Sister Alvear]

Or maybe listen to Darlene Rose...I will never leave thee...we all could learn a lot...

[mizpeh]

I'm surprised that the "just get over it" crowd hasn't showed up yet. It sounds like you may be bitter. You need to just forgive and forget. Move on.

If TPCmusician is saying this same thing 2...,3...,5 years later, then he will hear the "get over it and move on already".

[CC1]

Maybe we all ought to go watch Through gates of Spendor....We might learn what it really means to follow Jesus...

I am hoping you meant "Splendor". If you meant "Spender" then I think that was one of the problems this thread is about!:happydance

[houston]

If TPCmusician is saying this same thing 2...,3...,5 years later, then he will hear the "get over it and move on already".

Yes. Thank you.

[Sister Alvear]

I am hoping you meant "Splendor". If you meant "Spender" then I think that was one of the problems this thread is about!:happydance


somewhere along the way Calvary dimmed and gold must have glowed....sad..

[Sister Alvear]

however things like this do not only happen in Pentecostal churches...know a situation up close at a Baptist church...

[navygoat1998]

however things like this do not only happen in Pentecostal churches...know a situation up close at a Baptist church...

Sister Alvear,
Sin happens in all churches because at best man is sinful. It just becomes such a big deal in the churches who supposedly have the "truth" while committing the same sin as the supposed lost churches.

[Tlswift2009]

i am so sorry things like this happen...
God's work should be done god's way...when i see pastor's that all they talk about is hunting, collecting, antiques, selling and buying...i shiver....

We should have one thing in mind...the souls of men....not getting rich and sleeping on satin pillows...

Well...my opinion is not popular....and i am not against god's people having a confortable home, a nice car and the needed things of life. He who had no place to lay his head seldom requires that of us however we should have balance and common sense...
amen!!! Amen!!! Amen!!!

[Tlswift2009]

Sorry brother. I disagree with you. The word says that we are to eventually grow up and eat meat. Some of you in 'authority' want the people to stay little babies and suck milk and lead people (sheep?) around by the nose till they die.
That's some, but not my personal agenda. It is for the Pastor to nurture God's people that they may grow from the milk unto the meat of God's word. God's people are to be empowered by the Holyghost, and equipped for Kingdom service/ministry by the teaching and preparation of His word. I have NO problem with people disagreeing with me on any of their ideas-thoughts-pursuasions; I'm fully enlightened whereas what my calling and assignment is from my Master Jesus Christ, and I strive daily to fullfil my assingment; knowing to whom I MUST ultimately give an account too; so-no argument from me: I'M FOCUS ON WHAT MY BOSS {J-E-S-U-S}INSTRUCTS ME TO DO.

[Tlswift2009]

Sister Alvear,
Sin happens in all churches because at best man is sinful. It just becomes such a big deal in the churches who supposedly have the "truth" while committing the same sin as the supposed lost churches.
Amen; this is what brings such a GREATER reproach: we have the Apostolic Truths, but find ourselves oftentimes steeped in like manner sins...Lord, help us all to be what you're calling your church to be: HOLY, AND WITHOUT BLAME!!!!

[SeekingTruth]

I sat with an open mind awaiting truth last night. I heard a lot of things that shook the very core of my inner being. I can choose to get BITTER. Or I can heal and get BETTER. I choose to get BETTER. I love my friends that I have known and that have prayed for me and my family for 17 years now. But last night, I felt I was in twilight zone. I heard of a church that handles 'gobs of money' with no attorney. Years ago, at a time when I was backslidden, I still got to hear all the juicy details about those who failed in the church....those who were caught in adultery...those who were caught doing other immoral things. One case involved one of the parties in the TB family, and I heard how the whole saga was paraded before the church - probably because he was a minister (???). These things were not kept private. But, then TB the manipulator (and that's what he was) does things that are so profane it's still being kept hush hush (which is funny...the more people DON'T know the more they speculate ANYWAY!) and he has an entourage of people trying to protect his image. Really? REALLY? Trash a person? NO! Trash his family? NO! But truth is truth! I teach my 13 year old to NEVER do anything you are not man enough to accept the consequences for! If I take every dime from my family's bank account, leave my wife penniless and go lay up in Tahiti with 10 hookers WHY SHOULD MY WIFE BE OBLIGATED TO PROTECT MY PRECIOUS IMAGE AND ACT AS IF IT's NOBODY'S BUSINESS...including my son who is a part of the family?

I don't need to know every gory detail, but when the very HINT of sin came out someone JUMPED up in the meeting and ran to the platform COMPLETELY out of order trying to protect TB's image. Then, someone jumped up with a ridiculous nonsensical statement about TB having a suicide spirit. WHAT? There are undoubtedly some who will backslide and go to HELL (their choice, but he aided) because of the very sins that were committed by this respected pastor and the trust he violated (the fact that only 200+ voting members were present last night suggests something in itself)....and now we are supposed to forget about the CHURCH and our hurting families and focus on HIM? NEWSFLASH - he's laughing! The laid back BMW picture last week (not to mention the very person who jumped up in the meeting trying to protect his image clicking 'like' on his smurking picture) proves he is laughing all the way to the bank WITH his lawyers. Does it occur to some that maybe HE DOESN'T CARE? Does it occur to some (let me have my cynical moment) that MAYBE it has been a joke for him for YEARS (that's how narcissists operate, people!) You don't commit immoral acts, rape a church financially and leave them in debt, repent of a sin, ask for a year's severance and get a lawyer to "protect YOUR interests" when you KNOW the very thing that was promised verbally to you was against the bylaws (manipulation of a naive board). Repentance would have included throwing himself at the mercy at the church. You don't go hire attorneys to cause the church (that you CLAIMED to have loved all these years) to have to incur legal expenses when you have already raped us financially. NEWSFLASH - we ain't buildin' no church. LIES! Downtown church owing bills in six figures from almost 6 years ago. WHY DIDN'T ANYONE KNOW THIS?! And for those of us who gave lump sumps of sacrificial money, yes I AM MAD today and there is nobody who will tell me that somehow as an Apostolic I don't have a right to be right now. I will heal. But I'm mad. LET ME BE MAD and grieve through this. I give and it is given to God. But the folks that handle the business of the church are REQUIRED to be good stewards. ooohhh...oopsie. we made a mistake. Resign!

The board should have been voted out last night. They have NOT been good stewards of God's money! There WAS no board. There was a facade...a man who was in complete power who used a figurehead board as a rubber stamp to finance his immorality and insanity. What corporation has a board of directors who don't have a CLUE about finances? Even I would have been asking for financial statements! How many times did I hear folks dance around questions last night about salaries? And....15% of the tithes? So, if we were 5,000 strong and collected millions of dollars it makes sense to vote to pay a pastor 15% of the tithes?!!! I kept wondering if any more ridiculous motions could be brought up last night and if any more ridiculous information could be shared that I had not already heard. When direct questions were asked about a building fund virtually NON EXISTENT balance, we heard "read your bylaws"? WHAT? NO...answer the questions! Financial statement available in the office or not....church business meeting to vote on severance packages, etc (with no legal representation for the church...REAL smart)....auggh! Severance packages agreed upon illegally.

A blatant statement was made that we can't be saved without a pastor (true) but to allude that we are to BLINDLY follow a man.... Paul said follow me AS I follow Christ. We were never told to pray without WATCHING! DAH!

So, I asked myself the question - Do I buy into the nonsense that TPC is the only place to be saved? Do I choose to muddle through financial oblivion and a board who stands and says they didn't KNOW the church was in that financial position (WHAT????!!!!), more people jumping up defending SIN (just as many of TB's messages the last year were designed to do) all while we go through arbitration with a man and families of people who (I'm sure) when the audit is complete will show more dirty laundry and have cause for more 2 hour business meetings.

I choose to love God, love my family, worship God and go home. My salvation is NOT based upon my attending TPC --- and since we were TAUGHT to be good stewards all the while run by an out of control leader and a board who didn't know enough to ask questions (that's why they were hand picked) I choose to seek refuge for my family and soul. When the head is 'messed up' the body suffers. Our "head" has been messed up for YEARS. We just didn't know it.

I love my TPC family. But I love God more. I choose not to surround myself with junk and mess right now and trying to control my spirit and emotions while surrounded with those that seemingly would defend wrong and cover up at all cost. I saw, last night, exactly how Jim Jones manipulated +/- 1,000 people to commit suicide. To the contrary, board member: I need a pastor to get to heaven, but Jesus NEVER asked me to BLINDLY trust myself let alone another man of flesh. That's how we got into this mess in the first place. To do the same thing and expect different results equals insanity. I don't do crazy.

Love you friends. But I gotta go. I'm praying for the TPC family. That's all I can do ---- My soul and family are more important to me right now than protecting the reputation of TB and playing 'coverup'.

If I offend anyone by this post...oh well. Blame the source....the one who wants a year's pay after living in sin, preaching a lie, and ripping us off. It can't get any plainer than that! He used all of us for his purpose.

Yes...I'm using a public forum to vent. Why not? Maybe I've gotten just as crazy as 1/2 the folks I heard cheering last night.

As a non-member who attends this church, reading this has made me cry. I just can't believe people can defend sin and put someone so high on a pedestal. I just don't know if I can continue to be apart of this church. It breaks my heart and my trust.

[SeekingTruth]

I'm so sorry for you and the rest of the saints in your fellowship, TPCmusician. Praying for you all.

I'm surprised to hear that your former pastor has not confessed his sins to the church body and asked for forgiveness but instead is asking for money.

Him asking for money is nothing new. There was always money being taken up in the name of the "building fund." I am so sad, that the money people gave with a giving heart and the hope that it would be used to reach unsaved souls in Memphis, was going for such vile and disgusting things. I cannot believe he hasn't shown any remorse for his actions. He really owes the church an apology. His sermons, his counsel, his "wisdom" that he's shared with me and countless others was all a lie. Truly, I am broken by hearing all of this.

[AreYouReady?]

That's some, but not my personal agenda. It is for the Pastor to nurture God's people that they may grow from the milk unto the meat of God's word. God's people are to be empowered by the Holyghost, and equipped for Kingdom service/ministry by the teaching and preparation of His word. I have NO problem with people disagreeing with me on any of their ideas-thoughts-pursuasions; I'm fully enlightened whereas what my calling and assignment is from my Master Jesus Christ, and I strive daily to fullfil my assingment; knowing to whom I MUST ultimately give an account too; so-no argument from me: I'M FOCUS ON WHAT MY BOSS {J-E-S-U-S}INSTRUCTS ME TO DO.

While there are many 'pastor's' out there nurturing the saints, there are also many who do not nurture the saints, but fill their own bellies using the saints. The bible does not say we must endure spiritual abuse from these type of men or women.

Like you, I am likewise enlightened what my calling and assignment from God is. The Holy Ghost is fully able and willing to teach those who put their faith in God.

But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

(I John 2:27)

[Not ashamed]

I am a former member of TPC, I was baptized in Jesus' name and received the gift of the Holy Ghost in that church years ago when it was still Whitehaven UPC. TB was my pastor for over 15 years, he was one of the most influential mentors in my life for many years. Although I and my family now attend another apostolic church just outside Memphis, I have extended family and friends that still attend TPC. Viewing this unfolding situation, even from afar, has shocked me to my core and my heart hurts for the sweet saints at TPC. I thought I knew TB as a man of integrity and wisdom...knowing the confusion that I feel over this debacle, I cannot imagine the magnitude of what TPC'ers are feeling right now.

TPC folks here: know that apostolics all over the Memphis area (& beyond) love you and are praying without ceasing for you.

[Tlswift2009]

While there are many 'pastor's' out there nurturing the saints, there are also many who do not nurture the saints, but fill their own bellies using the saints. The bible does not say we must endure spiritual abuse from these type of men or women.

Like you, I am likewise enlightened what my calling and assignment from God is. The Holy Ghost is fully able and willing to teach those who put their faith in God.

But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

(I John 2:27)
I AGREE with you 100%. I come from a terrible Memphis Apostle's manipulation, and abuse-it almost desroyed me, but my affectons were deeply rooted and anchored in Jesus; I was terribly wounded for many years, but God healed me, and I'm a man that practice, and exercise great discretion when dealing with God's sheep, and I've made it my business NEVER to abuse, nor injure God's people. I'm working on a book right now entitled, "Surviving Church Abuse And Betrayal". My wife and I despise abusive leadership towards God's people, and we will fight to DEFEND God's people from abusive pastors/leadership. Many, many Pastors start off well, but get lifted up, and far too comfortable with things in the church that should not be in their control: church finances should be handled soley by the trustees and/or deacon board. I believe that the Pastor should be given mtgs/reports on how the church is fairing financially, but should not handle the monies, plus-the IRS frowns down on this as well. Our job as Pastors is to FEED the Flock of God, and to be tendered and loving to them; even those that seems to have a little goat in them-this is our charge; to feed-nurture-pray for-uplift-encourage-reprove-etc; when we spend out time in our calling, and exercising disciplne in our lives, and truly remain trnasparent; then God will be pleased.

[Tlswift2009]

I am a former member of TPC, I was baptized in Jesus' name and received the gift of the Holy Ghost in that church years ago when it was still Whitehaven UPC. TB was my pastor for over 15 years, he was one of the most influential mentors in my life for many years. Although I and my family now attend another apostolic church just outside Memphis, I have extended family and friends that still attend TPC. Viewing this unfolding situation, even from afar, has shocked me to my core and my heart hurts for the sweet saints at TPC. I thought I knew TB as a man of integrity and wisdom...knowing the confusion that I feel over this debacle, I cannot imagine the magnitude of what TPC'ers are feeling right now.

TPC folks here: know that apostolics all over the Memphis area (& beyond) love you and are praying without ceasing for you.
Amen!!! Good word of encouragement for God's people. Pastor Black is a good friend of mine, and I'm praying for him that God can reach and bring deliverance, and reconciliation in his life with God, and those involved; it may take some time, but God will move TPC on to greater heights and victories if TPC allow God to heal the church family, and I know the church will survive: "the gates of hell shall NOT prevail"!!!

[Tlswift2009]

Him asking for money is nothing new. There was always money being taken up in the name of the "building fund." I am so sad, that the money people gave with a giving heart and the hope that it would be used to reach unsaved souls in Memphis, was going for such vile and disgusting things. I cannot believe he hasn't shown any remorse for his actions. He really owes the church an apology. His sermons, his counsel, his "wisdom" that he's shared with me and countless others was all a lie. Truly, I am broken by hearing all of this.
Remember, King David went over a year without repenting; God sent Prophet Nathan to help out in this UNREPENTANT heart of King David concerning the adultery and treachery of murder that David was guilty of. The bible talks about "bringing forth FRUIT {genuine} meet for repentance", Pastor Black may not be at this point yet; there's a lot of thing going on with him and his own marriage, and wounded wife, but when he is ready; it will be a very GREAT and SINCERE repentance. A JUST man falleth seven times, but he riseth up agaiin"; Pastor Black has all the opportunity under God's grace to be restored fully into the family of God, and in time be a GREAT soldier in whatever capacity God allows: this is God's call. God has given to us the ministry of RECONCILIATION; this includes fallen soldiers of the Gospel of Jesus Christ; consider John Mark.

[StillStanding]

I AGREE with you 100%. I come from a terrible Memphis Apostle's manipulation, and abuse-it almost desroyed me, but my affectons were deeply rooted and anchored in Jesus; I was terribly wounded for many years, but God healed me, and I'm a man that practice, and exercise great discretion when dealing with God's sheep, and I've made it my business NEVER to abuse, nor injure God's people. I'm working on a book right now entitled, "Surviving Church Abuse And Betrayal". My wife and I despise abusive leadership towards God's people, and we will fight to DEFEND God's people from abusive pastors/leadership. Many, many Pastors start off well, but get lifted up, and far too comfortable with things in the church that should not be in their control: church finances should be handled soley by the trustees and/or deacon board. I believe that the Pastor should be given mtgs/reports on how the church is fairing financially, but should not handle the monies, plus-the IRS frowns down on this as well. Our job as Pastors is to FEED the Flock of God, and to be tendered and loving to them; even those that seems to have a little goat in them-this is our charge; to feed-nurture-pray for-uplift-encourage-reprove-etc; when we spend out time in our calling, and exercising disciplne in our lives, and truly remain trnasparent; then God will be pleased.

You have a good and godly spirit!

[Peacemaker]

That board is likely caught in between a rock and a hard place. Some people want to know everything that they know. Others probably don't want any information shared at all. The people who want to know everything will accuse them of covering sin. The people who don't want to know anything will accuse them of touching the Lord's anointed. The real job of a board caught up in a disaster is to try to keep as much of the people together, look for solutions to problems, and keep the church going at some level until they can get a long term solution.
Regardless of what decisions are made, they will be criticized.

[Barb]

That board is likely caught in between a rock and a hard place. Some people want to know everything that they know. Others probably don't want any information shared at all. The people who want to know everything will accuse them of covering sin. The people who don't want to know anything will accuse them of touching the Lord's anointed. The real job of a board caught up in a disaster is to try to keep as much of the people together, look for solutions to problems, and keep the church going at some level until they can get a long term solution.
Regardless of what decisions are made, they will be criticized.

I see what you are saying, but if the board knew of sin and deception, and they STILL agreed to a severance, there is a problem here.

That is not a "rock and hard place" situation...that is coverup and payoff.

So now inquiring minds want to know why?

None of our business? Sure, but when someone, anyone takes bold stands against sin, or what they perceive to be sin, but is in reality hiding a life of corruption, they have put their own life on 'Front Street'.

A sinning pastor should not be given one cent to hit the road. His main concern should be the salvation of his soul and that of his family, and not about how is he gonna get by without the big pay check.


This is shameful on so many levels...:foottap

[Peacemaker]

A church is shaken severely when these type of things happen. Jesus stated that the only thing that preserves people when storms rage and the ground shakes is to be a person who hears and does the Lord's Word.

Making a decision during a storm is never wise. Hold onto the Lord, let the storm clear, and then people can make up their minds in a safe state.

[Barb]

A church is shaken severely when these type of things happen. Jesus stated that the only thing that preserves people when storms rage and the ground shakes is to be a person who hears and does the Lord's Word.

Making a decision during a storm is never wise. Hold onto the Lord, let the storm clear, and then people can make up their minds in a safe state.

I have been through this, so I know whereof I speak.

Staying in the eye of the hurricane is not wisdom...it is foolish.

Holding onto the Lord is paramount, but one should never, ever let sentiment cloud our judgment.

[The Lemon]

Once again, here is the good Ol' USA, it is the way we "Do Church" that has much to do with situations like these. Folks need good Godly leadership that feeds them, but they also need to be encouraged and responsible to grow their own relationship with Christ.

When people sit on pews for years at a time and are good "saints' but do not grow personally and deeply in God, they tend to develop a "Pastor Relationship", instead of a Christ Relationship. When this happens, if the pastor fails...the sheep scatter and many spritually die out as a result...it is sad.

The one man show, business model of Church has much to do with the possible open doors of temptation, be it money, lust, power, abuse, etc., etc. A good Pastor does not want "Yes Men" on the board that kiss his tush and stroke his ego; he needs a balanced board that is respectfull and has common sense, with good checks and balances in place.

I don't know if I will ever understand the enormous edifaces we build to use three times a week or less - the over reaction to status and image, the non-profit/profit business model etc. that we incorporate and wonder why, as it grows totally out of hand, there are so many "issues". I fear Christ in some cases is no longer the focal point, but agendas, calendars, fund-raisers, and so forth are - in the name of Christ.

Many do not want to live or except a more simple grass roots model, because we love our social clubs, but in my opinion, if America keepd getting engrossed in darkness, there will come a time where all these trappings will be done away with, and Christ will really be the head of the Church again...no more padded pews, or looking around for pats on the back....just my opinion...

[Peacemaker]

To Barb, your thoughts make sense. My point isn't to disagree with you.
Reading the comments on here, do you think this board has been well-trained to deal with these type of problems?
Rock and a hard place refers to leading members with differing and valid opinions.
Again, I can't disagree with you. If Apostolics would simply go by the Bible and the laws of their country instead of making it up as they go (we all do that, by the way), then pastors would be afraid to do wrong things. There are laws connected with jail sentences for much of what happens in the case of pastoral failure. A couple of instances of those being enforced would scare more away from doing the same.
But I wouldn't want to see my pastor treated that way if he did do something wrong.
Messy.

[Peacemaker]

Barb, I agree that some people may need to leave if that helps their spiritual condition.
If everyone leaves everytime there is difficulty, then that entire church would vanish. That doesn't sound like a good idea.

[HADDOCK]

My dad pastored the same UPC church for 27 years, was presbyter for many years and sat on the district board. He was held In high esteem in the upc circles and in the county and surrounding areas where he pastored. A man above reproach and he wasn't given a year's salary when he retired! And, he actually had to deal with the situation years ago at that church and former pastor. It broke his heart and his health. He would be saddened by All of this as he knew TB and his dad. TB attended my dad's funeral. I feel for this church family so deeply. It is sad to see pastors who no longer have the heart of a true Shepard. I know many folks that attend this church and I pray they find direction and place their trust in God to see them through this difficult time.

[AreYouReady?]

I AGREE with you 100%. I come from a terrible Memphis Apostle's manipulation, and abuse-it almost desroyed me, but my affectons were deeply rooted and anchored in Jesus; I was terribly wounded for many years, but God healed me, and I'm a man that practice, and exercise great discretion when dealing with God's sheep, and I've made it my business NEVER to abuse, nor injure God's people. I'm working on a book right now entitled, "Surviving Church Abuse And Betrayal". My wife and I despise abusive leadership towards God's people, and we will fight to DEFEND God's people from abusive pastors/leadership. Many, many Pastors start off well, but get lifted up, and far too comfortable with things in the church that should not be in their control: church finances should be handled soley by the trustees and/or deacon board. I believe that the Pastor should be given mtgs/reports on how the church is fairing financially, but should not handle the monies, plus-the IRS frowns down on this as well. Our job as Pastors is to FEED the Flock of God, and to be tendered and loving to them; even those that seems to have a little goat in them-this is our charge; to feed-nurture-pray for-uplift-encourage-reprove-etc; when we spend out time in our calling, and exercising disciplne in our lives, and truly remain trnasparent; then God will be pleased.

Brother, I would like to read your book when you get finished writing it. Please let me know where I can buy a copy.

Peace to you.

[AreYouReady?]

I see what you are saying, but if the board knew of sin and deception, and they STILL agreed to a severance, there is a problem here.

That is not a "rock and hard place" situation...that is coverup and payoff.

So now inquiring minds want to know why?

None of our business? Sure, but when someone, anyone takes bold stands against sin, or what they perceive to be sin, but is in reality hiding a life of corruption, they have put their own life on 'Front Street'.

A sinning pastor should not be given one cent to hit the road. His main concern should be the salvation of his soul and that of his family, and not about how is he gonna get by without the big pay check.


This is shameful on so many levels...:foottap

:yourock

[AreYouReady?]

Once again, here is the good Ol' USA, it is the way we "Do Church" that has much to do with situations like these. Folks need good Godly leadership that feeds them, but they also need to be encouraged and responsible to grow their own relationship with Christ.

When people sit on pews for years at a time and are good "saints' but do not grow personally and deeply in God, they tend to develop a "Pastor Relationship", instead of a Christ Relationship. When this happens, if the pastor fails...the sheep scatter and many spritually die out as a result...it is sad.

The one man show, business model of Church has much to do with the possible open doors of temptation, be it money, lust, power, abuse, etc., etc. A good Pastor does not want "Yes Men" on the board that kiss his tush and stroke his ego; he needs a balanced board that is respectfull and has common sense, with good checks and balances in place.

I don't know if I will ever understand the enormous edifaces we build to use three times a week or less - the over reaction to status and image, the non-profit/profit business model etc. that we incorporate and wonder why, as it grows totally out of hand, there are so many "issues". I fear Christ in some cases is no longer the focal point, but agendas, calendars, fund-raisers, and so forth are - in the name of Christ.

Many do not want to live or except a more simple grass roots model, because we love our social clubs, but in my opinion, if America keepd getting engrossed in darkness, there will come a time where all these trappings will be done away with, and Christ will really be the head of the Church again...no more padded pews, or looking around for pats on the back....just my opinion...

:yourock

[Praxeas]

[quote=Peacemaker;1200236]That board is likely caught in between a rock and a hard place. Some people want to know everything that they know. Others probably don't want any information shared at all. The people who want to know everything will accuse them of covering sin. The people who don't want to know anything will accuse them of touching the Lord's anointed. The real job of a board caught up in a disaster is to try to keep as much of the people together, look for solutions to problems, and keep the church going at some level until they can get a long term solution.
what they should do is have 2 meetings.

One the people that want to know where they will be informed.

The next day the people that don't want to know can show up and talk about the people that did want to know

[CC1]

That board is likely caught in between a rock and a hard place. Some people want to know everything that they know. Others probably don't want any information shared at all. The people who want to know everything will accuse them of covering sin. The people who don't want to know anything will accuse them of touching the Lord's anointed. The real job of a board caught up in a disaster is to try to keep as much of the people together, look for solutions to problems, and keep the church going at some level until they can get a long term solution.
Regardless of what decisions are made, they will be criticized.

I am amazed that there are people who think publicly declaring the sin would be "touching the Lord's annointed". I have a feeling that deep down it is more a case of not wanting to be embarrassed for having followed and revered a man who had done what would be revealed.

The saints of this church deserve and should have honesty. It doesn't need to be dwelt on but it does need to be declared clearly and fully and then the church can move on.

[exTPCMusician]

I have been through this, so I know whereof I speak.

Staying in the eye of the hurricane is not wisdom...it is foolish.

Holding onto the Lord is paramount, but one should never, ever let sentiment cloud our judgment.


In times like this, some think it is a sign of unity to hold out. The will of God is paramount, and the obligation is to God. ...family and THEN church. People not speaking to others because of opposing views, people frustrated because they feel they're being spoon fed information like we're retarded children, and reputations being over protected while others have been publicly trashed in the past . Cliques, hypocrisy. I choose not to subject myself nor family through another meeting in which (by the applause) it's obvious some idolize a pastor WAY out of scriptural context. I was waiting on grape Koolaid at one point. Yes. ...some storms you ride out. Some you run from for your safety.

Enjoyed your post

[CC1]

In times like this, some think it is a sign of unity to hold out. The will of God is paramount, and the obligation is to God. ...family and THEN church. People not speaking to others because of opposing views, people frustrated because they feel they're being spoon fed information like we're retarded children, and reputations being over protected while others have been publicly trashed in the past . Cliques, hypocrisy. I choose not to subject myself nor family through another meeting in which (by the applause) it's obvious some idolize a pastor WAY out of scriptural context. I was waiting on grape Koolaid at one point. Yes. ...some storms you ride out. Some you run from for your safety.

Enjoyed your post

The next step will be for those wanting transparency to be labeled as rebellious and sensationalists. Heaven forbid anything would keep the truth from being swept underneath the rug!

I have watched these type situations far too often in old time Pentecost and pretty much know how it goes.

[exTPCMusician]

Barb, I agree that some people may need to leave if that helps their spiritual condition.
If everyone leaves everytime there is difficulty, then that entire church would vanish. That doesn't sound like a good idea.

Everyone has to decide what's best for them and their family. The more time passes, the more ugliness comes out regarding TB, the board, and the "cheerleader" mentality of some members.
If the pastor is a manipulative crook, the board incompetent and many applauding (literally) the concept to fully trust the next pastor , its time to go. There is no scriptural principle that allows a pastor to be a dictator. As i listened to the opinions of some and heard the applause.. .i knew it is time for ME and MINE to leave. Socalled Revival, fake churches we're allegedly building as we are continually moving FAR away from the heart of Memphis.. .scam. The church has been hoodwinked for years and instead of making common sense decisions we debated for two hours about praying folks MORE money.

Servants. Ministers have become everything BUT that.. ..and gullible saints feed the problem.

The fact that our meeting was almost completely talking about severance (still trying to figure out $342,000 and $200,000+ real estate loans for people who make $75,000) suggests the membership is focused on personalities and cliques. ..not righteousness. Unbeweavable, how someone did a near somersault to the front to protect TB’s reputation.

And we're talking about severance? While membership is still worshiping personalities, there's a city still going to hell. The meeting was not completely enlightening because folks are still hiding information. MORE of TB’s family were on payroll than just the SIL’s. Why? Lets "borrow" $8,000 (stolen) for our closing on our house.. ..and then get a severance package. We might as well given the family every dime we have.. ..theres not 'much left ANYWAY

[exTPCMusician]

I see what you are saying, but if the board knew of sin and deception, and they STILL agreed to a severance, there is a problem here.

That is not a "rock and hard place" situation...that is coverup and payoff.

So now inquiring minds want to know why?

None of our business? Sure, but when someone, anyone takes bold stands against sin, or what they perceive to be sin, but is in reality hiding a life of corruption, they have put their own life on 'Front Street'.

A sinning pastor should not be given one cent to hit the road. His main concern should be the salvation of his soul and that of his family, and not about how is he gonna get by without the big pay check.


This is shameful on so many levels...:foottap

Hallelujah! !!! Preach!!! Manipulation, cover up, violation of by laws, a financially beat up church and we get an "oops". So funny the other adultery and sin of others was never hidden. But now we want to protect a reputation. When a pastor abruptly resigns in sin and manipulated a lavish lifestyle the church deserves to know what happened.

[H Gang]

It is my understanding that the meeting produced a no vote for the severance for the SILs. TPCmusician, is that true?

[Tlswift2009]

You have a good and godly spirit!
Thank you so much-this has come over the years of growing in the Lord, and observing what the scriptures says about, "And I will give you pastors according to MINE HEART, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding"...Jeremiah 3;15...A Pastor has too TRULY strive to have a very intimate, sensitive, prayerful, and obediently/faithful, comitted relationship with God; this comes with diligent practice with abiding in God's word, and spiritual growth; oftentimes PAINFUL lessons learned through many trials/mistakes. A Pastor has to FULLY understand that he is not a superior church leader, but an UNDERSHEPHERD, and that the sheep belongs to Jesus, and we're not to LORD of God's herittage: a Pastor does have boundaries as a leader: Love your OWN wife; operate within your calling, and walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called; God has set other GIFTS in the church as it pleased Him; to aid, and assist with the overall care of the church: respect God's order for His church, and RESPECT others within the Body of Christ. ALL church members should remember the need of prayer that thier pastor need constantly, and DO NOT take this for granite; satan is ever so busy "seeking whom he may devour"; especially the leadership; "smite the head and the sheep will scatter". congregates should make special times for prayers {corporate/private} for their Pastor/leadership, and even offer to pray for your Pastor-sometimes I will ask our church members to come forth and pray for my wife and myself, and when we have visiting Pastors/Ministers; I'll ask them to pray openly for wife and myself: submit ye one to another; it keeps the flesh/carnal man subject to rightness, and humility, and reminds us all that we all need prayer. I DO NOT want to fail God, nor His people, and I most certainly DO NOT want to reproach myself,nor fail my calling to leade, nututre, and equip God's people.

[Tlswift2009]

Once again, here is the good Ol' USA, it is the way we "Do Church" that has much to do with situations like these. Folks need good Godly leadership that feeds them, but they also need to be encouraged and responsible to grow their own relationship with Christ.

When people sit on pews for years at a time and are good "saints' but do not grow personally and deeply in God, they tend to develop a "Pastor Relationship", instead of a Christ Relationship. When this happens, if the pastor fails...the sheep scatter and many spritually die out as a result...it is sad.

The one man show, business model of Church has much to do with the possible open doors of temptation, be it money, lust, power, abuse, etc., etc. A good Pastor does not want "Yes Men" on the board that kiss his tush and stroke his ego; he needs a balanced board that is respectfull and has common sense, with good checks and balances in place.

I don't know if I will ever understand the enormous edifaces we build to use three times a week or less - the over reaction to status and image, the non-profit/profit business model etc. that we incorporate and wonder why, as it grows totally out of hand, there are so many "issues". I fear Christ in some cases is no longer the focal point, but agendas, calendars, fund-raisers, and so forth are - in the name of Christ.

Many do not want to live or except a more simple grass roots model, because we love our social clubs, but in my opinion, if America keepd getting engrossed in darkness, there will come a time where all these trappings will be done away with, and Christ will really be the head of the Church again...no more padded pews, or looking around for pats on the back....just my opinion...
Amen!!!! Your commentary is B-I-N-G-O!!!! I had to learn the responsibilty of not only following leadership, but to DEVELOP that one-on-one intimate, personal relationship with God through prayer, study time, and communing with the Lord. I has a Pastor once that wanted you to listen, and trust moreso in him for your reliance upon the Lord; I saw this early and began my own private time with God. This Pastor began to notice my personal growth and dependency upon the Lord and was very uncomfortable with it; even though I gave him the ultimate respect. A wise and genuine pastor should ALWAYS PROMOTE/ENCOURAGE-insist that the members strive for that personal relationship with Jesus Christ, and should oftentimes reminds the members that he is also a child of God himself in need of that same one-on-one with the Lord-you commentary is very insightful, and ON POINT!!! Thanks!!!

[Tlswift2009]

To Barb, your thoughts make sense. My point isn't to disagree with you.
Reading the comments on here, do you think this board has been well-trained to deal with these type of problems?
Rock and a hard place refers to leading members with differing and valid opinions.
Again, I can't disagree with you. If Apostolics would simply go by the Bible and the laws of their country instead of making it up as they go (we all do that, by the way), then pastors would be afraid to do wrong things. There are laws connected with jail sentences for much of what happens in the case of pastoral failure. A couple of instances of those being enforced would scare more away from doing the same.
But I wouldn't want to see my pastor treated that way if he did do something wrong.
Messy.
AMEN!!! Let me help scripturally to support your comments; ROMANS 13:1-7..."Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

2) Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

3) For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

4) For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

5) Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

6) For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

7) Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

IN A NUTSHELL: RESPECT-OBEY-ABIDE WITHIN THE CIVIL LAWS OF THE LAND, OR RECEIVE RECOMPENCE FOR YOUR NEGATIVE ACTIONS-GOD HAS DET THIS IN ORDER; EVEN CHURCH PEOPLE HAS TO OBEY-ITS EXPECTED BY GOD.

[Tlswift2009]

Brother, I would like to read your book when you get finished writing it. Please let me know where I can buy a copy.

Peace to you.
I do plan to make this book very PUBLIC because every church person need to know that Pastors/leadership have limitations, and can, and do oftentimes CROSS the line through manipulation and fear tactics. Sometimes our greatest trials, wounds, and fight for survival comes right from the parameters of the church, and leadership is often at the helm of church people troubles-confusion; these wounds takes years to heal if at all ever healed: there's a lot of wounded, hurts, and destroyed Christians that really LOVED the Lord. I WILL MAKE THIS BOOK KNOW BECAUSE IT'S NEEDED!!!

[Tlswift2009]

My dad pastored the same UPC church for 27 years, was presbyter for many years and sat on the district board. He was held In high esteem in the upc circles and in the county and surrounding areas where he pastored. A man above reproach and he wasn't given a year's salary when he retired! And, he actually had to deal with the situation years ago at that church and former pastor. It broke his heart and his health. He would be saddened by All of this as he knew TB and his dad. TB attended my dad's funeral. I feel for this church family so deeply. It is sad to see pastors who no longer have the heart of a true Shepard. I know many folks that attend this church and I pray they find direction and place their trust in God to see them through this difficult time.
Wonderful commentary; thanks for sharing.

[Tlswift2009]

I am amazed that there are people who think publicly declaring the sin would be "touching the Lord's annointed". I have a feeling that deep down it is more a case of not wanting to be embarrassed for having followed and revered a man who had done what would be revealed.

The saints of this church deserve and should have honesty. It doesn't need to be dwelt on but it does need to be declared clearly and fully and then the church can move on.
EXACTLY!!!! AMEN!!!! The full healing will not take place til the wrong has been made known, and dealt with..

[Tlswift2009]

In times like this, some think it is a sign of unity to hold out. The will of God is paramount, and the obligation is to God. ...family and THEN church. People not speaking to others because of opposing views, people frustrated because they feel they're being spoon fed information like we're retarded children, and reputations being over protected while others have been publicly trashed in the past . Cliques, hypocrisy. I choose not to subject myself nor family through another meeting in which (by the applause) it's obvious some idolize a pastor WAY out of scriptural context. I was waiting on grape Koolaid at one point. Yes. ...some storms you ride out. Some you run from for your safety.

Enjoyed your post
Now the church ought to say, "AMEN"!!!! We have to know when to hold them, and when to FOLD them: "let every man be pursuaded in his own mind". Good point Brother!!!

[Cindy]

:(

[Tlswift2009]

Everyone has to decide what's best for them and their family. The more time passes, the more ugliness comes out regarding TB, the board, and the "cheerleader" mentality of some members.
If the pastor is a manipulative crook, the board incompetent and many applauding (literally) the concept to fully trust the next pastor , its time to go. There is no scriptural principle that allows a pastor to be a dictator. As i listened to the opinions of some and heard the applause.. .i knew it is time for ME and MINE to leave. Socalled Revival, fake churches we're allegedly building as we are continually moving FAR away from the heart of Memphis.. .scam. The church has been hoodwinked for years and instead of making common sense decisions we debated for two hours about praying folks MORE money.

Servants. Ministers have become everything BUT that.. ..and gullible saints feed the problem.

The fact that our meeting was almost completely talking about severance (still trying to figure out $342,000 and $200,000+ real estate loans for people who make $75,000) suggests the membership is focused on personalities and cliques. ..not righteousness. Unbeweavable, how someone did a near somersault to the front to protect TB’s reputation.

And we're talking about severance? While membership is still worshiping personalities, there's a city still going to hell. The meeting was not completely enlightening because folks are still hiding information. MORE of TB’s family were on payroll than just the SIL’s. Why? Lets "borrow" $8,000 (stolen) for our closing on our house.. ..and then get a severance package. We might as well given the family every dime we have.. ..theres not 'much left ANYWAY
Brother, your heart is on doing what's right, and God's gonna reward you for your labour of love, and seeking the path of rightness/righteousness. While I love and honor leadership; I broke myself loose from personalities, noterieties, and all this BIG I's, and LITTLE U's mess that takes place in the churchworld. My wife and I have/are doing very well financially, but I made it my personal point to live modesty; stay low inspirit, and away from the LIMELIGHTS of Sodom {church cliques and glamour}. I made it my point not to always be found esteeming the Big Shots, but to remember and entreat what is oftentimes considered; "the little guy", I do not like PUFFED UP people, or running with the "inner circle"; I'm a common man, and I like common people; you do not have to be poor, uneducated, sickly, weak, nor broke to be "common"; it's a state of godly humilty, and understanding that we're all equal whether in church, or out in society: God has NO respect of person. I told God back in 1986 that I would live low; stay close to the people, neighborhoods, communities that are in need, and not take easterward migration flight. I told God that I wil not have a ministry of bussing people out, but Iwould set up CAMP {ministry} right in the heart of satan's territory, and build Him an Oasis whereby His people can come in and find REFUGE-HOPE-DELIVERANCE-SALVATION, and rebuild the community: IT'S HARD-TEDIOUS-LONG SUFFERING WORK, but worthy every minute, plus it keeps you low, focused, busy, involved, humbled, fasting and praying, and causes you to be KINGDOM EFFECTIVE!!! I want people to know that "God Is A LifeChanging God" -He's A God Of OTHER Chances-...Let God make something BEAUTIFUL out of your life!!! I've been long tired of al this MADNESS, and CRAZINESS that goes on in the churches-Wife and I chose to work in South memphis because God told me that He had many souls that he wanted to save in a place where people are running from: we've run right into it, and it's a joy and pleasure to see God changing the lives of those thatothers have REJECTED!!! People have got too cofortable in these palacious churches; carnal, and the same-ole-same-old; what people need to do is roll up their sleeves, come out of these lofty fortresses, and gated wall of splendor, and TRULY get that heart of soul winning back; get that puffed up "we have arrived" spirit deflated, and love God enough to go back into the highway and hedges; and that means take your ministry, God's word to the HOOD!!! I love it!!! People have gotten too carnal/fleshly, and selfish, and very KINGDOM LAZY!!!

[Tlswift2009]

Hallelujah! !!! Preach!!! Manipulation, cover up, violation of by laws, a financially beat up church and we get an "oops". So funny the other adultery and sin of others was never hidden. But now we want to protect a reputation. When a pastor abruptly resigns in sin and manipulated a lavish lifestyle the church deserves to know what happened.
STAND YOUR GROUNDS OF CONVICTION TPCmusician!!! You don't need agreements from people; follow God's lead for you and your family. Who knows, God may be looking at another David {leadership in you} while King Saul was destroying things-God had the unknown David in the waiting. While Judas was out conferring and plotting with the enemies of Jesus; he ended up destroying himself, and GOLDEN opportunity, but the church ROLLED on. Out of every trial/failure of leadership; God's NEVER short on finding/having someone else to come forth. TPCmusician, stand on your own convictions; you can stand firmer/stronger on your's than someone else's suggestions. "Let every man be pursuaded in his own mind"!!! TPC willsurvive and have great oppotunity to grow/flourish if the people will allow God, and REfocus their eyes/hearts-AFFECTIONS on Him. GOD IS GOD, AND CAN DO ALL THINGS BUT FAIL!!! TRUST IN THE LORD AND WAIT PATIENTLY ON HIM!!!

[Tlswift2009]

I am amazed that there are people who think publicly declaring the sin would be "touching the Lord's annointed". I have a feeling that deep down it is more a case of not wanting to be embarrassed for having followed and revered a man who had done what would be revealed.

The saints of this church deserve and should have honesty. It doesn't need to be dwelt on but it does need to be declared clearly and fully and then the church can move on.
The ""supposed"" anointed of the Lord is NEVER above REBUKE-CORRECTION; the bible is full of evidence/incidence whereas God rebuked His leadership; even one Prophet disobeyed God instructions not to eat after he completed his assignment and this Prophet accepted food anyway, and God sent a lion to kill him. We need to follow Jesus' example in obeying, and submitting to God's will as leaders; Jesus success came because he kept a close prayer life connection with God, and did not get caught up in the worldly trappings, and EGO's of life/lifestyles of the churches RICH, and FAMOUS. Jesus was a COMMON man. Look at these pitiful, worldly, secularized noterieties of today pastors of: T. D. Jakes, Olsteen, Dollar, Hinn, Ms. White, Bynum, Meyers, the late Zachary Tims, etc; caught up in themselves!!!

[tv1a]

The church members deserve to know the truth. The Bible gives directives how to handle this. When the information gets to AFF, it's gossip. A wise man told me there's person A's version of facts, there's person B's version of facts, and the truth is usually something different.

Anyone jumping to conclusions based on what they read on the internet, or based on their "personal" investigations are out of line with the Bible.

Situations are meant to be dealt with locally with direction from the organization the church is associated with.

The same Bible that teaches integrity in the pulpit also teaches against gossip.

I have been through rocky church transitions. Pastors left church thousands of dollars in debt, left after inappropriate communication with other women. One pastor left out church, then six months later announced his homosexuality. It's not an issue of touching God's annointed or sweeping everything under the rug. The Biblical way to handle this is to ask what can I do to ease the pain of people hurt by the alleged events?

I don't like what TB taught. I don't like how he promoted legalism. The only thing I liked was he had a few pdf files on his website that helped me as a musician. With that said, I'm not going to participate with the sharks, vultures, and snakes as they try to feed off his carcass. Today's society is full of peeping toms who never have to leave their home. People get a kick out of eatching people fail.

The difference between today and the day where Nero fed christians to the lions is the spectators are other christians.


I am amazed that there are people who think publicly declaring the sin would be "touching the Lord's annointed". I have a feeling that deep down it is more a case of not wanting to be embarrassed for having followed and revered a man who had done what would be revealed.

The saints of this church deserve and should have honesty. It doesn't need to be dwelt on but it does need to be declared clearly and fully and then the church can move on.

[Monterrey]

Maybe TB will go across town and start selling used cars.

[hoot]

It was verbally promised during an illegally held board meeting and the board was "pushed into it" with the assistant of Dr. JH and Pastor JK - translation: the board had no clue what their position was and had no backbone and when someone said "BOO" loud enough, they jumped and agreed to it. Ultimately, at the end of the day while THEY too circumvent responsibility and merely say "I'm sorry" I don't think they quite understand the legal and financial hole they too helped dig the church into. My tithes and offerings are going into a savings account until we find a church home. I do not intend to support man's agenda and the false pretense that we were "reaching the city". Nope. We were lining TB's and TB's family's pockets. I ain't scared to say it!

Kilgore and Hughes were brought in by TB as UPCI gunslingers. They were damage control. When they saw that they were not going to be able to steamroll the congregation like they did the 3 man board and a blindly gullible ministerial association they left pdq. Kilgore and Hughes were at the "meeting" at a hotel where the board was intimidated (not hard to do) into a severance package and other concessions. My biggest gripes are things like this- when church hierarchy is used to confuse and intimidate. These men were NOT told to leave by the board- the board actually asked Kilgore to be interim pastor for 6 months!
Bro. Black has left my church confused- financially strapped and divided. Still TPC loves Bro. Black and his son in laws.
People act as if facts are character assassination? There is a huge difference between observation and judgement. The financial review was straight forward and shows that abuse was rampant. There was no oversight and a 3 man rubber stamp board that have never read the by-laws. (Literally) The congregation is still in the dark on all the gory details and that is probably a good thing. The truth is ugly and depressing- just the opposite of what a pastor should be. I understand that pastors are flesh and bone like me and you- that said it really hit home for me when I had a friend/member of TPC honestly ask me
"what IS real??"
The hard line course TB and company has chose after things started surfacing has everyone's head reeling. Attorneys - threats of law$uits - and circling back through scattering the flock for another BIG bite shows me who the jackal is...

[tv1a]

Correction is to come from top down not bottom up. Many saints believe God gave them the right to rebuke the ministry. Nothing like getting a rebuke from some trailer park trash with a webcam.

Jesus was not a common man. Jesus was extraordinary. Don't think Jesus didn't have an ego? He loved to tease the Pharisees with the fact he was the Messiah. Ego itself isn't bad. Many people have a hard time with people who are full of confidence. Jesus had an ego. What he did with the ego is put it under subjection to the will of the Father.

The ""supposed"" anointed of the Lord is NEVER above REBUKE-CORRECTION; the bible is full of evidence/incidence whereas God rebuked His leadership; even one Prophet disobeyed God instructions not to eat after he completed his assignment and this Prophet accepted food anyway, and God sent a lion to kill him. We need to follow Jesus' example in obeying, and submitting to God's will as leaders; Jesus success came because he kept a close prayer life connection with God, and did not get caught up in the worldly trappings, and EGO's of life/lifestyles of the churches RICH, and FAMOUS. Jesus was a COMMON man. Look at these pitiful, worldly, secularized noterieties of today pastors of: T. D. Jakes, Olsteen, Dollar, Hinn, Ms. White, Bynum, Meyers, the late Zachary Tims, etc; caught up in themselves!!!

[tv1a]

I understand your frustrations. I've been there from the pew on more than one occasion. I admit I did some things in frustration or retaliation that I wish I could go back and do over.

I've been abused by the religious system. I believe the main reason I survived is because somehow I knew deep inside God wasn't like that. I knew they didn't represent God or all things holy. I was able to weather the storm when others gave up on God altogether.

Your friend asks a powerful question. What IS real? God has given you the opportunity to help answer the question. Every word you speak is going to edify or destroy. Your words are going to harm or heal. How you respond to this unfortunate situation goes a long way in determining the perception of reality. All the other stuff will take care of itself.

Kilgore and Hughes were brought in by TB as UPCI gunslingers. They were damage control. When they saw that they were not going to be able to steamroll the congregation like they did the 3 man board and a blindly gullible ministerial association they left pdq. Kilgore and Hughes were at the "meeting" at a hotel where the board was intimidated (not hard to do) into a severance package and other concessions. My biggest gripes are things like this- when church hierarchy is used to confuse and intimidate. These men were NOT told to leave by the board- the board actually asked Kilgore to be interim pastor for 6 months!
Bro. Black has left my church confused- financially strapped and divided. Still TPC loves Bro. Black and his son in laws.
People act as if facts are character assassination? There is a huge difference between observation and judgement. The financial review was straight forward and shows that abuse was rampant. There was no oversight and a 3 man rubber stamp board that have never read the by-laws. (Literally) The congregation is still in the dark on all the gory details and that is probably a good thing. The truth is ugly and depressing- just the opposite of what a pastor should be. I understand that pastors are flesh and bone like me and you- that said it really hit home for me when I had a friend/member of TPC honestly ask me
"what IS real??"
The hard line course TB and company has chose after things started surfacing has everyone's head reeling. Attorneys - threats of law$uits - and circling back through scattering the flock for another BIG bite shows me who the jackal is...

[Tlswift2009]

Kilgore and Hughes were brought in by TB as UPCI gunslingers. They were damage control. When they saw that they were not going to be able to steamroll the congregation like they did the 3 man board and a blindly gullible ministerial association they left pdq. Kilgore and Hughes were at the "meeting" at a hotel where the board was intimidated (not hard to do) into a severance package and other concessions. My biggest gripes are things like this- when church hierarchy is used to confuse and intimidate. These men were NOT told to leave by the board- the board actually asked Kilgore to be interim pastor for 6 months!
Bro. Black has left my church confused- financially strapped and divided. Still TPC loves Bro. Black and his son in laws.
People act as if facts are character assassination? There is a huge difference between observation and judgement. The financial review was straight forward and shows that abuse was rampant. There was no oversight and a 3 man rubber stamp board that have never read the by-laws. (Literally) The congregation is still in the dark on all the gory details and that is probably a good thing. The truth is ugly and depressing- just the opposite of what a pastor should be. I understand that pastors are flesh and bone like me and you- that said it really hit home for me when I had a friend/member of TPC honestly ask me
"what IS real??"
The hard line course TB and company has chose after things started surfacing has everyone's head reeling. Attorneys - threats of law$uits - and circling back through scattering the flock for another BIG bite shows me who the jackal is...
Brother, you're hurting and very disaapointed, but HOLD your ground for truth and righteousness; somebody has to make it known that SIN is a reproach to any people. You standing does not mean that you're hating on anyone; your standing means that you can love a person, but not uphold the wrong/sin in that person; it's obvious that your heart is rooted and ground in the things of God, and that you're not overtaken by the PERSONAGE of any man: God will NOT forget you for standing for what's right when so many others are allowing their emotions, and overly bond to the man to blind them to the ultimate MAN: Jesus Christ!!! I am being tremendously blessed by observing your BLUNT truth about these matters: I"m sure you're learning a WHOLE lot about many people that you've been fellowshipping with a long time??? I love TB; he's been a longtime friend, and I most certainly pray for he and wife's welfare, but the church has been tramatically injure misconduct, and it's most IMPORTANT that God has the right people in place to see that TPC survives, and is HEALED; maybe a few more persons in high places need to be REMOVED!!! God is using you Brother; though you're in the minority; and I'm not speaking ethnically, but the minority of speaking out and holding strong: protect your family from this damage.

[AreYouReady?]

Correction is to come from top down not bottom up. Many saints believe God gave them the right to rebuke the ministry. Nothing like getting a rebuke from some trailer park trash with a webcam.

You have a bad attitude about the poor. You should remember these wordsEvery word you speak is going to edify or destroy. Your words are going to harm or heal. before you start calling other people trash.

The 'ministry' is no more anointed than the saints in the pew. The ministry today does not even remotely mirror the image of the early church and the Apostles teachings.

[CC1]

People act as if facts are character assassination? There is a huge difference between observation and judgement. The financial review was straight forward and shows that abuse was rampant. There was no oversight and a 3 man rubber stamp board that have never read the by-laws. (Literally) The congregation is still in the dark on all the gory details and that is probably a good thing. The truth is ugly and depressing- just the opposite of what a pastor should be. I understand that pastors are flesh and bone like me and you- that said it really hit home for me when I had a friend/member of TPC honestly ask me
"what IS real??"
The hard line course TB and company has chose after things started surfacing has everyone's head reeling. Attorneys - threats of law$uits - and circling back through scattering the flock for another BIG bite shows me who the jackal is...

The part of your post that I highlighted is the core problem of how many Pentecostals view situations like this.

They are so afraid of "touch not mine annointed" that they confuse observation with judgement. I would actually say fact finding vs pre-judgement because once the facts are on the table then a fair judgement can be made of what happened.

Being a preacher does not excuse you from accountability, integrity, honesty,etc, etc.

If you violate any of those Christian principles holding you accountable is the correct thing to do.

When pastors of these larger churches that pull in large sums of money have absolute power and control the old saying about "absolute power corrupts absolutely" is something all involved should guard against.

As I have repeatedly said I believe any pastor who has the heart of a shepherd will have accountability measures in place to protect the people he loves against any failure of integrity or morality on his part.

[Truthseeker]

All the church from top to bottom needs to be held accountable. Some that don't know scripture will says its judging.

[tv1a]

I have no problem with poor people. There is a reason the ministry is elevated above the saints is to teach saints how to be saints.

If trailer park trash can afford a computer, a cell phone, or a webcam shows they are poor stewards of God's resources. Get off welfare before you proclaim you speak for God.

You have a bad attitude about the poor. You should remember these words before you start calling other people trash.

The 'ministry' is no more anointed than the saints in the pew. The ministry today does not even remotely mirror the image of the early church and the Apostles teachings.

[CC1]

I have no problem with poor people. There is a reason the ministry is elevated above the saints is to teach saints how to be saints.

If trailer park trash can afford a computer, a cell phone, or a webcam shows they are poor stewards of God's resources. Get off welfare before you proclaim you speak for God.

The ministry has a different function than the saints but I don't recall the Bible saying it was "elevated above" the saints. That verbage speaks volumes about your view of the relationship between ministry and saints. It is that very attitude that causes modern day shepherds to act more like Old Testament Prophets and Judges rather than follow Jesus' examples of ministry such as the Sermon on the Mount.

[CC1]

When it comes time for the church in Memphis to choose a new pastor they might take some inspiration from how this Christian leader was just chosen (see link to news article pasted below)

http://www.wtop.com/220/3106291/AP-Photos-Egypts-Copts-choose-new-pope

[Praxeas]

Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank You, O Father, Lord of Heaven and earth, because You have hidden these things from the sophisticated and cunning, and revealed them to babes.

[Praxeas]

You have a bad attitude about the poor. You should remember these words before you start calling other people trash.

The 'ministry' is no more anointed than the saints in the pew. The ministry today does not even remotely mirror the image of the early church and the Apostles teachings.
I would say the ministry includes the saints in the pew

[tv1a]

The Bible explicitly says the ministry is to equip the saints. That alone automatically elevates the ministry to a leadership role. There was a reason Jesus trained the twelve. You can bet Jesus was in charge. He trained the disciples, rebuked them, loved them, and served them. The Corinthian church is a great example to show what happens when the inmates run the asylum. There is more to Jesus than the Sermon on the Mount.

The ministry has a different function than the saints but I don't recall the Bible saying it was "elevated above" the saints. That verbage speaks volumes about your view of the relationship between ministry and saints. It is that very attitude that causes modern day shepherds to act more like Old Testament Prophets and Judges rather than follow Jesus' examples of ministry such as the Sermon on the Mount.

[tv1a]

The Bible says the the five fold ministry trains the saints for ministry.

I would say the ministry includes the saints in the pew

[AreYouReady?]

I would say the ministry includes the saints in the pew

:yourock

[Praxeas]

The Bible explicitly says the ministry is to equip the saints. That alone automatically elevates the ministry to a leadership role. There was a reason Jesus trained the twelve. You can bet Jesus was in charge. He trained the disciples, rebuked them, loved them, and served them. The Corinthian church is a great example to show what happens when the inmates run the asylum. There is more to Jesus than the Sermon on the Mount.
No it does not say "the ministry" equips saints to be ghetto couch potatoes and trailer park trash that sit around and do nothing

Eph 4:11 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers,
Eph 4:12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ,

We ARE the Ministry.

[AreYouReady?]

The Bible explicitly says the ministry is to equip the saints. That alone automatically elevates the ministry to a leadership role. There was a reason Jesus trained the twelve. You can bet Jesus was in charge. He trained the disciples, rebuked them, loved them, and served them.

Jesus our Messiah also taught this to the Apostles:

20 ¶Then came to him the mother of Zebedee's children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him.
21 And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.
22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
24 And when the ten heard it, they were moved with indignation against the two brethren.
25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. Matthew 20:28

Jesus said nothing about one person lording over others. Period.
However, no doubt that there are many pastors out there who follow Jesus' teachings concerning this manner, somewhere.

The Corinthian church is a great example to show what happens when the inmates run the asylum. There is more to Jesus than the Sermon on the Mount.

So...are you admitting that some of our earthly churches can be considered an asylum? I know that you are not comparing Christ's church to an insane asylum so it must be the way some of our organized church systems are being run by man? :D

I Corinthians 6, teaches us that the saints are to judge wrongdoings in the church...not some hierarchy.

1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?
6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.
7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?
8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.

Paul says that the saints will judge the world and he says "we shall judge the angels". By saying that, Paul counted himself among the saints...not elevated himself to the level of "leadership" over the saints.

He does not call the least esteemed in the church 'trailer trash'. Those verses affirm that everybody is equal in Christ's church.

Getting back to the topic of this thread, the real problem here is that the pastor went to the council of the unbelievers, to the 'law', if you may, to secure a severance package for himself off the backs of 'tithepayers' after TB defrauded them. That is adding insult to the injury he perpetrated upon them. He should be tucking tail and running. Instead he is demanding that they pay for his debauchery? That is bold and in your face SIN.

Where is the leadership now? Are they defending the 'sheep'? Who is looking after the saint's interest? If they are not stepping in and standing in that gap, then they are wolves in sheep's clothing, allowing a fellow wolf to skin them alive. If they are looking after the saint's interests in that local body, then God Bless them and help them to administer righteous judgment.


However, scripturally, the church is supposed to go to the least esteemed in the church. Let the saint's override the wimpy board and appoint new board members to handle the problem. JMHO and I'm sure it doesn't mean much.

[Fiyahstarter]

May the truth be known. May the hurt be healed. May safeguards be enacted in ALL churches so this kind of stuff cannot happen again.

The more I know about how most churches run...the less I want to be a part of them.

I am more in tune with those who do their "works" because of a calling on their lives ...not to make money ... not for the prestige... not for the power ...not to build empires ...

JMHO.

[Fiyahstarter]

TV -

Your opinions in this thread have caused me to drop my jaw and just stare.

Really?

[AreYouReady?]

I have no problem with poor people. There is a reason the ministry is elevated above the saints is to teach saints how to be saints.

The Holy Ghost can lead us and guide us into all things. No man needs to teach a person 'how to be a saint'.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

And

I John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.




If trailer park trash can afford a computer, a cell phone, or a webcam shows they are poor stewards of God's resources. Get off welfare before you proclaim you speak for God.

:jaw


Not all people who live in trailers are on welfare or trashy people. This is offensive. Even many people who are on welfare does not make them trashy.

I know many fine people who are hard working, studious of the Word, give to their church that live in trailers. They live in a trailer maybe because they fell on hard times...maybe because inflation has eaten away at their wages so that a trailer home is what they can comfortably live within their income range.

And yes, if they are a member of a local body, their point of view is just as valid as the family who makes $200,000 a year.

[Fiyahstarter]

Yes...my sentiments exactly!


:jaw

[tv1a]

Saints SHOULD be the ministry. Since the dark ages, christians have been trained to think the leadership is to do it all. As a result, most saints abdicate that responsibility until something controversial happens with a leader. The five fold ministry is responsile to devlop mature and productive christians. Jesus taught His disciples what He expects from His followers. It's difficult to train people for ministry when many people are christians in name only.

A lot of people want to be like the christian Jesus talked about in the Sermon on the Mount series. The same Jesus who preached that sermon also directed His followers to heal the sick, raise the dead, and cast out demons. Almost every christian who lives in the realm of working miracles, signs, and wonders are criticizes and accused of being a fake.

No it does not say "the ministry" equips saints to be ghetto couch potatoes and trailer park trash that sit around and do nothing

Eph 4:11 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers,
Eph 4:12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ,

We ARE the Ministry.

[tv1a]

I never said all people who live in trailers are trash. So you can stop being offended.

Not everyone's opinion holds the same weight. The Bible says we are to test the spirits and we are to judge by the fruit.

The webcam prophets usually have the same characteristics. Those who slam faith healers or people who are used in signs, wonders, and miracles couldn't pray for God to stop a runny nose.

Webcam prophets who complain about wealthy christians are jealous. Instead of working harder and making smarter decisions, they just tear others down who made the right decisions.

While you bring up the topic, making a career out of being on welfare is wrong. Paul told the church not to give to lazy people. The church is required to take care of the widows and orphans, period. There are people with legitimate disabilities who need compassion. Even then if a person has the right minset, they can obercome any obstacle. Does Joni Tada Erickson and Stephen Hawking ring a bell?

You pulled scripture out of context. The context in John 16 was a directive to the disciples that the Holy Spirit would fill in the gaps. The narrative around John 16:13 starts in John 16:8 when Jesus says I have a lot more to teach you. You are not ready for it right now. I won't be around to finish, but the Holy Spirit will finish what I started. Notice a pattern? Jesus taught, Holy Spirit filled in the gaps when the disciples were ready. Bible scholars believe this was a directive to the disciples which was fulfilled after the Day of Pentecost. We see evidence by the fact of what we have in the New Testament.

Same in 1 John 2:27. When read in proper context, John already taught the church the truth. Verse 24 shows John already taught them the truth. The truth John speaks about relates to the Diety of Christ. John was fighting the antichrist spirit. John was telling the church the Holy Spirit will reveal the truth about gnosticism. John told the church the Holy Spirit will confirm what was taught by the ministry.

Taking the scriptures cited into proper context, does not suggest the Holy Spirit replaces the five fold ministry, but reinforces what's been taught by the Holy Spirit as to be truth or error.

The Holy Ghost can lead us and guide us into all things. No man needs to teach a person 'how to be a saint'.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

And

I John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.






:jaw


Not all people who live in trailers are on welfare or trashy people. This is offensive. Even many people who are on welfare does not make them trashy.

I know many fine people who are hard working, studious of the Word, give to their church that live in trailers. They live in a trailer maybe because they fell on hard times...maybe because inflation has eaten away at their wages so that a trailer home is what they can comfortably live within their income range.

And yes, if they are a member of a local body, their point of view is just as valid as the family who makes $200,000 a year.

[tv1a]

I don't suggest a dictatorship. I embrace servant leadership. That is how you make disciples. My style of leadership is to serve, teach, lead by example. The role of the ministry is to empower the saints.

A couple of points about the Corinthian church:
Weak and indecisive leadership nearly destroyed the church. How Paul decribed what was happening there pretty much described the inmates running the assylum. Chaotic church services, communion parties, sexual indiscretions. I think those issues were covered in 1 Corinthians.

Not every saint is equal. The Bible says God will reward those according to their works. Christ treated his disciples different than he treated the 5,000.

The problem with saints is many aren't spiritually prepared to handle a crisis. Many boards aren't equipped to handle a spiritual crisis. That is why Paul got involved in the Corinthian nightmare.

I will not comment on the Memphis Mess. I can say I'm not suprised at the tactics used by the organization. I've seen this happen in Ohio for years. It is sad to see the poltical circus take center stage.

Thoughrs a

Jesus our Messiah also taught this to the Apostles

20 ¶Then came to him the mother of Zebedee's children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him.
21 And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.
22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
24 And when the ten heard it, they were moved with indignation against the two brethren.
25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. Matthew 20:28

Jesus said nothing about one person lording over others. Period.
However, no doubt that there are many pastors out there who follow Jesus' teachings concerning this manner, somewhere.



So...are you admitting that some of our earthly churches can be considered an asylum? I know that you are not comparing Christ's church to an insane asylum so it must be the way some of our organized church systems are being run by man? :D

I Corinthians 6, teaches us that the saints are to judge wrongdoings in the church...not some hierarchy.

1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?
6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.
7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?
8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.

Paul says that the saints will judge the world and he says "we shall judge the angels". By saying that, Paul counted himself among the saints...not elevated himself to the level of "leadership" over the saints.

He does not call the least esteemed in the church 'trailer trash'. Those verses affirm that everybody is equal in Christ's church.

Getting back to the topic of this thread, the real problem here is that the pastor went to the council of the unbelievers, to the 'law', if you may, to secure a severance package for himself off the backs of 'tithepayers' after TB defrauded them. That is adding insult to the injury he perpetrated upon them. He should be tucking tail and running. Instead he is demanding that they pay for his debauchery? That is bold and in your face SIN.

Where is the leadership now? Are they defending the 'sheep'? Who is looking after the saint's interest? If they are not stepping in and standing in that gap, then they are wolves in sheep's clothing, allowing a fellow wolf to skin them alive. If they are looking after the saint's interests in that local body, then God Bless them and help them to administer righteous judgment.


However, scripturally, the church is supposed to go to the least esteemed in the church. Let the saint's override the wimpy board and appoint new board members to handle the problem. JMHO and I'm sure it doesn't mean much.

[exTPCMusician]

Now that I've vented sufficiently, I took a much needed one-day break. We visited another UPC and a non-UPC church in the heart of South Memphis. In one case, there was an absence of music, beautiful edifices, etc. ....but there was a pastor with a hunger for righteousness, souls, and the forgotten area of town he pastors. It's time for a real move of God. What TB did does NOT minimize the power of the gospel. The songwriter said it in one of those songs we've forgotten about since we've all become so sophisticated.. ..self included. "I know the Bible is right.. ...somebody's wrong. I done told you once , done told you twice, can't make it to heaven with a sweetheart and a wife". The Bible is right.

There will be changes in the by laws, a realistic vision, a new ministry direction, a new/revised board that dares to open their mouth to say more than "ok". And in the end, Memphis will have revival. But first, the fan club repentance.. ....or purging. Standing! Man let me down. Flesh did what it does. But, Jesus is still God and this message still needs to reach a lost city.. ..the entire city.. ..without regards to race or class.

See yall on the platform. Nice try, devil. .......again.

[Monterrey]

I have a sweetheart and a wife ... what's wrong wid dat.?

[Falla39]

I have a sweetheart and a wife ... what's wrong wid dat.?

But she's the same lady, isn't she! :lol

[tv1a]

I wish you well.

Now that I've vented sufficiently, I took a much needed one-day break. We visited another UPC and a non-UPC church in the heart of South Memphis. In one case, there was an absence of music, beautiful edifices, etc. ....but there was a pastor with a hunger for righteousness, souls, and the forgotten area of town he pastors. It's time for a real move of God. What TB did does NOT minimize the power of the gospel. The songwriter said it in one of those songs we've forgotten about since we've all become so sophisticated.. ..self included. "I know the Bible is right.. ...somebody's wrong. I done told you once , done told you twice, can't make it to heaven with a sweetheart and a wife". The Bible is right.

There will be changes in the by laws, a realistic vision, a new ministry direction, a new/revised board that dares to open their mouth to say more than "ok". And in the end, Memphis will have revival. But first, the fan club repentance.. ....or purging. Standing! Man let me down. Flesh did what it does. But, Jesus is still God and this message still needs to reach a lost city.. ..the entire city.. ..without regards to race or class.

See yall on the platform. Nice try, devil. .......again.

[StillStanding]

Now that I've vented sufficiently, I took a much needed one-day break. We visited another UPC and a non-UPC church in the heart of South Memphis. In one case, there was an absence of music, beautiful edifices, etc. ....but there was a pastor with a hunger for righteousness, souls, and the forgotten area of town he pastors. It's time for a real move of God. What TB did does NOT minimize the power of the gospel. The songwriter said it in one of those songs we've forgotten about since we've all become so sophisticated.. ..self included. "I know the Bible is right.. ...somebody's wrong. I done told you once , done told you twice, can't make it to heaven with a sweetheart and a wife". The Bible is right.

There will be changes in the by laws, a realistic vision, a new ministry direction, a new/revised board that dares to open their mouth to say more than "ok". And in the end, Memphis will have revival. But first, the fan club repentance.. ....or purging. Standing! Man let me down. Flesh did what it does. But, Jesus is still God and this message still needs to reach a lost city.. ..the entire city.. ..without regards to race or class.

See yall on the platform. Nice try, devil. .......again.

Reading your posts, you are one of the members that is able to separate loyalty to God and loyalty to a man. We all want to believe the best of leaders that we have grown to love and admire. Our first response is to defend the perception that was our reality. I believe that with time, more and more members will realize that their perception of TB is flawed, and eventually come to grips with reality. The church will move on, but probably with a smaller number of people.

[Ferd]

I have lived in housetrailers twice. Once was even in a trailer park.

I embrace my trailerpark past!

you people are silly.

[houston]

But she's the same lady, isn't she! :lol

I'm trying to figure out how she got stuck with him!!! Poor woman...

[houston]

I have lived in housetrailers twice. Once was even in a trailer park.

I embrace my trailerpark past!

you people are silly.

What?

[AreYouReady?]

Saints SHOULD be the ministry. Since the dark ages, christians have been trained to think the leadership is to do it all. As a result, most saints abdicate that responsibility until something controversial happens with a leader. The five fold ministry is responsile to devlop mature and productive christians. Jesus taught His disciples what He expects from His followers. It's difficult to train people for ministry when many people are christians in name only.

So why are they being taught to be good pew sitters by many pastors? The very posts you posted about 'leadership' being above the 'saints' in the pews is indicative that is exactly the way the hierarchy wants it to be.

A lot of people want to be like the christian Jesus talked about in the Sermon on the Mount series. The same Jesus who preached that sermon also directed His followers to heal the sick, raise the dead, and cast out demons. Almost every christian who lives in the realm of working miracles, signs, and wonders are criticizes and accused of being a fake.

Our own pastors criticize and accuse any evangelist who administers the gifts of the Spirit of being fakes. There are many churches who ostracize them.

[Falla39]

I'm trying to figure out how she got stuck with him!!! Poor woman...

Houston,
I know you are saying that tongue in cheek, But I have an idea she loves him very much. :cupidlove

[Fiyahstarter]

Now that I've vented sufficiently, I took a much needed one-day break. We visited another UPC and a non-UPC church in the heart of South Memphis. In one case, there was an absence of music, beautiful edifices, etc. ....but there was a pastor with a hunger for righteousness, souls, and the forgotten area of town he pastors. It's time for a real move of God. What TB did does NOT minimize the power of the gospel. The songwriter said it in one of those songs we've forgotten about since we've all become so sophisticated.. ..self included. "I know the Bible is right.. ...somebody's wrong. I done told you once , done told you twice, can't make it to heaven with a sweetheart and a wife". The Bible is right.

There will be changes in the by laws, a realistic vision, a new ministry direction, a new/revised board that dares to open their mouth to say more than "ok". And in the end, Memphis will have revival. But first, the fan club repentance.. ....or purging. Standing! Man let me down. Flesh did what it does. But, Jesus is still God and this message still needs to reach a lost city.. ..the entire city.. ..without regards to race or class.

See yall on the platform. Nice try, devil. .......again.

:nod

Excellent response to a very tough situation! God be with you all!

[houston]

Houston,
I know you are saying that tongue in cheek, But I have an idea she loves him very much. :cupidlove

Love is BLIND! Have you seen him?

[houston]

kidding, kidding

[tv1a]

You bring up a great point. The more I think about it, the more I realize the saints in the NT church are different than what we consider saints today. A more accurate description of contemporary saints is members. Members have their get out of hell free card. Most christians are happy with the status quo. Most churches operate under the 80/20 rule. 20% of people do 80% of the work. In smaller churches, less people do more work.

I mentioned the nutjobs at Corinth. After Paul's scathing letter, the Corinthians got their act together an by Paul's next letter any adjustments were minor.

So why are they being taught to be good pew sitters by many pastors? The very posts you posted about 'leadership' being above the 'saints' in the pews is indicative that is exactly the way the hierarchy wants it to be.



Our own pastors criticize and accuse any evangelist who administers the gifts of the Spirit of being fakes. There are many churches who ostracize them.

[Monterrey]

Love is BLIND! Have you seen him?

Bwahaha, jealousy is as cruel as the grave!

[AreYouReady?]

I never said all people who live in trailers are trash. So you can stop being offended.

You made no distinctions.

Not everyone's opinion holds the same weight. The Bible says we are to test the spirits and we are to judge by the fruit.

Never said everyone opinion holds the same weight. I hold that every saint in the church has a valid ministry. A ministry is not an opinion. There is a difference despite what you say.

The webcam prophets usually have the same characteristics. Those who slam faith healers or people who are used in signs, wonders, and miracles couldn't pray for God to stop a runny nose.

Webcam prophets who complain about wealthy christians are jealous. Instead of working harder and making smarter decisions, they just tear others down who made the right decisions.

I've seen preachers slam other preachers in the UPC in whose ministry God used signs and wonders. And why do you call people webcam prophets? And why do you use derogatory terms to describe human beings?

Your speech describing people weakens the validity of your position. It tears people down instead of building them up. If this is your type of ministry that "edifies" the saints...then no thanks. I know God is not speaking through you.


While you bring up the topic, making a career out of being on welfare is wrong. Paul told the church not to give to lazy people. The church is required to take care of the widows and orphans, period. There are people with legitimate disabilities who need compassion. Even then if a person has the right minset, they can obercome any obstacle. Does Joni Tada Erickson and Stephen Hawking ring a bell?


First of all, I did not bring up the topic...YOU did. And you did so with scorn for the poor. Your post gave me the impression that anybody who is poor is on welfare. You made no distinction in that regard. And your posts give me the impression that if they are poor and on welfare, they are lazy and should not have an opinion sitting on a pew. That mindset only demasculates the men who would work if they can find a decent job. Or oppresses the women whose men left them with children.

Secondly, I've never seen one UPC church in my region take care of anybody in this area. I've heard them direct people to the state to sign up for welfare. I've heard with my own ears teaching from the pulpit that if a widow so much as has a nephew, let not the church be charged. In other words, the teaching was that they would look the other way if a widow woman has any family at all, that even her nephew should help her and she should not look to the church. It doesn't matter if that nephew has his own family to feed and educate. Yes, that did come out of the ministry's mouth.

Thirdly, my observation of the church system in my area is that they take from the poor more than they give to them. One well known evangelist in these parts stood up in the pulpit while preaching, saying "If you do not have money to pay your rent, pay your tithes anyway". I've known people who borrowed money and gave it to the church when they could not afford to do so and had to pay it back with high interest. An ignorant move.

Don't give me your interpretation of what he meant either. You weren't there to hear the entire sermon.

What makes some church leaders any different from a welfare recipient when they beg or tell horror stories in their sermons of what happens to people when they don't tithe?

I live in the poorest state of the union. Some of the preachers here live much higher than the average in their congregations. One preacher refused to live in the brick constructed church parsonage that was bought and paid for by the church for the prior pastor. Instead, the church sold it to one of his family members.

You pulled scripture out of context. The context in John 16 was a directive to the disciples that the Holy Spirit would fill in the gaps. The narrative around John 16:13 starts in John 16:8 when Jesus says I have a lot more to teach you. You are not ready for it right now. I won't be around to finish, but the Holy Spirit will finish what I started. Notice a pattern? Jesus taught, Holy Spirit filled in the gaps when the disciples were ready. Bible scholars believe this was a directive to the disciples which was fulfilled after the Day of Pentecost. We see evidence by the fact of what we have in the New Testament.

Same in 1 John 2:27. When read in proper context, John already taught the church the truth. Verse 24 shows John already taught them the truth. The truth John speaks about relates to the Diety of Christ. John was fighting the antichrist spirit. John was telling the church the Holy Spirit will reveal the truth about gnosticism. John told the church the Holy Spirit will confirm what was taught by the ministry.

Taking the scriptures cited into proper context, does not suggest the Holy Spirit replaces the five fold ministry, but reinforces what's been taught by the Holy Spirit as to be truth or error.


Your interpretation is one of many that I have heard over the years. Even the many preachers cannot agree with context of these scriptures. One teaches it one way, one teaches it another way. Who is correct? Why should anybody think your interpretation is correct over another preacher's interpretation? Or are you going to slug it out with the preacher who contradicts your interpretation?

I believe that God teaches all of his people through the Holy Ghost. If you read any recent modern day history, you will find that God spoke to people in countries where they oppress people who believe in Jesus Christ.



You just want to justify your elevation of one man to be higher than another. Some of the ones on top want to make sure many stay at the base so they can have their job and an audience.

I have not seen any oneness church in my region that actually operates in a five-fold ministry mode. None.

If your idea of men running the church in your interpretation of the bible is so effective, why then is America sliding down into the pits of Godless communism? Why does the church just roll over when laws are passed to further oppress the church? The country should be in revival and the churches bursting at the seams. Why isn't it?

Why are there over 38,000 different denominations and beliefs in the christian church today...with each claiming to have the one true gospel and each with their own set of rules and ordinances? That is an astounding number that Satan has been able to divide the body of Christ over.

The reason why the saints sit in the pew and let the preacher and a few do it all is because they are taught to. Plain and simple. Some of the "hierarchy" shoots themselves in the foot and cripples the whole assembly by their rules and ordinances.

Some of them do not edify the saints at all. They teach that there is a hierarchy, they get to appoint that hierarchy and the rest of the people are to do as they are told by that hierarchy regardless of what a saint feels God told him to do.

The body of Christ is supposed to work together...fit nicely into a living organism with Christ as the Head of His church.

[AreYouReady?]

You bring up a great point. The more I think about it, the more I realize the saints in the NT church are different than what we consider saints today. A more accurate description of contemporary saints is members. Members have their get out of hell free card. Most christians are happy with the status quo. Most churches operate under the 80/20 rule. 20% of people do 80% of the work. In smaller churches, less people do more work.


And people like you love to have it so...you hand pick folks to do your bidding and complain about the rest. Nobody gets out of hell free unless Christ says so. He is the ultimate judge.

It is apparent you despise many of the saints. You call them 'members'...webcam prophets...lazy welfare people... and you decide who is worthy to have an opinion or a ministry instead of allowing Christ to be the head of His church.

[The Lemon]

The last few posts remind me of a time with my Uncles and my Father several years ago. On this trip we decided to hike Old Rag Mountain in VA. At some point during the hike I and one of my Uncles were resting on a fallen tree; while there, another Uncle approached and was in the preaching mood.

I sat him down and told him quite matter of factly that we humans love to make life more complicated then it really is. My zealous Uncle was astonished at what I had said and began rebuking my comment and going on and on about how that is not so...I simply replied, if that is the case, then why, after you were born again, has the list of requirements to make heaven continually increased year after year...new rules, same program....he shut up.

We tend to attract people of like mindedness.....if you live in super spiritual land...of course you will attract those who spiritualize everything; conversely, if you like to gossip, be lazy, and ect. - usually, that is who you attract to yourself....generally speaking of course. One thing that I have noticed is that few people recieve correction very well, and especially not those who hold positions of influence.

As far as the 80/20 rule...I use to hear about that a lot in my old assembly from the pastor.....unfortunately he went off the deep end and ran off with another lady in church. Whose "work" are we really doing in most cases..."Gods Work" or our own?? Answer that question and you will know where your motivation is.

[tv1a]

My mistake is that you knew the Pareto rule. The Pareto rule is as almost a science. The Pareto rule doesn't mean the leaders pick and choose who is in the twenty percent. The twenty percent isn't hand picked. They are the ones who rise above the ordinary.

I have a problem with people are self anointed and self appointed to stick their noses into church business that doesn't have anything to do with them. You produce the fruit, you may have the right to judge situations that doesn't affect you.

And people like you love to have it so...you hand pick folks to do your bidding and complain about the rest. Nobody gets out of hell free unless Christ says so. He is the ultimate judge.

It is apparent you despise many of the saints. You call them 'members'...webcam prophets...lazy welfare people... and you decide who is worthy to have an opinion or a ministry instead of allowing Christ to be the head of His church.

[AreYouReady?]

My mistake is that you knew the Pareto rule. The Pareto rule is as almost a science. The Pareto rule doesn't mean the leaders pick and choose who is in the twenty percent. The twenty percent isn't hand picked. They are the ones who rise above the ordinary.

I have a problem with people are self anointed and self appointed to stick their noses into church business that doesn't have anything to do with them. You produce the fruit, you may have the right to judge situations that doesn't affect you.

Observing and commenting on a situation is neither self anointed, nor self appointed.

But I and other people do have a right to observe and comment any situation that concerns the church. I do not divide Christ's church into separate anthills. Anything that happens 100, 1000, 5000 miles from me or even around the world that represents Christ, affects me because I am in the same church as they. There is only one church and it is Christ's church. The image that any Holy Ghost filled person creates by the deeds they do affects the entire body of Christ, both here and afar. If a minister who is respected across the country has a moral failure, the entire body of Christ suffers from the pain.

People are weird creatures. They want to deny the effect that another man's moral failure has on the body, but are willing to castigate another class of people (muslims) when their leaders commit sin and attribute that to that entire class of people.


And gee...you get worse and worse in your comparisons. The Pareto rule? It's a rule based on economics, but it can be applied to anything...just as you say. So ok. Let's apply it to your church system. And lets use this website as a guide that gives more of an explanation than you did.

http://management.about.com/cs/generalmanagement/a/Pareto081202.htm

***In 1906, Italian economist Vilfredo Pareto created a mathematical formula to describe the unequal distribution of wealth in his country, observing that twenty percent of the people owned eighty percent of the wealth. In the late 1940s, Dr. Joseph M. Juran inaccurately attributed the 80/20 Rule to Pareto, calling it Pareto's Principle. While it may be misnamed, Pareto's Principle or Pareto's Law as it is sometimes called, can be a very effective tool to help you manage effectively.***

So...you apply this to your church system. A pastor can use this principle to the people within the four walls of a church building.

Continuing on.....

***Where It Came From

After Pareto made his observation and created his formula, many others observed similar phenomena in their own areas of expertise. Quality Management pioneer, Dr. Joseph Juran, working in the US in the 1930s and 40s recognized a universal principle he called the "vital few and trivial many" and reduced it to writing. In an early work, a lack of precision on Juran's part made it appear that he was applying Pareto's observations about economics to a broader body of work. The name Pareto's Principle stuck, probably because it sounded better than Juran's Principle.
As a result, Dr. Juran's observation of the "vital few and trivial many", the principle that 20 percent of something always are responsible for 80 percent of the results, became known as Pareto's Principle or the 80/20 Rule.

What It Means

The 80/20 Rule means that in anything a few (20 percent) are vital and many(80 percent) are trivial.***

So...are you saying that in your church system, 20 percent are vital to you and the rest (80 % ) are trivial members? Do you discount that 80 percent who are looking for Christ?

Gee...what happened to the church proclaiming to be a beacon of light to Christ if 80% of the people are considered to be trivial IF you apply your Pareto's scientific study to human beings?

I guess it is easy to discount human beings thought of as trailor trash or lazy welfare recipients. Don't mess with em because they will never be anything more than what they are now. (tic)

Yeah...and don't cross over to the other side of the road and be a good samaritan to the man who was robbed and left for dead.


You have your reward here on earth.



***In Pareto's case it meant 20 percent of the people owned 80 percent of the wealth.***

Or are you saying that in your church system 20 percent of the people at the top own 80 percent of the wealth in the church. Does this apply at TB's church for example?



*** In Juran's initial work he identified 20 percent of the defects causing 80 percent of the problems. Project Managers know that 20 percent of the work (the first 10 percent and the last 10 percent) consume 80 percent of your time and resources. You can apply the 80/20 Rule to almost anything, from the science of management to the physical world. [how about the spiritual world?]
You know 20 percent of your stock takes up 80 percent of your warehouse space and that 80 percent of your stock comes from 20 percent of your suppliers. Also 80 percent of your sales will come from 20 percent of your sales staff. 20 percent of your staff will cause 80 percent of your problems, but another 20 percent of your staff will provide 80 percent of your production. It works both ways.***


Now we will get down to the nitty gritty.

***How It Can Help You

The value of the Pareto Principle for a manager is that it reminds you to focus on the 20 percent that matters.***

So...if you apply this principle to your congregation, it is telling me that you only want to focus on the 20 percent of the people and everybody else can be considered to be trivial or trailer trash.

Hmmm....Did Paul teach that people were trivial? Or trailer trash because they were common...poor...simple?

I am going to skip the next portion to get to this. One can read it from the link if so desires.


***There is a management theory floating around at the moment that proposes to interpret Pareto's Principle in such a way as to produce what is called Superstar Management. The theory's supporters claim that since 20 percent of your people produce 80 percent of your results you should focus your limited time on managing only that 20 percent, the superstars. The theory is flawed, as we are discussing here because it overlooks the fact that 80 percent of your time should be spent doing what is really important. Helping the good become better is a better use of your time than helping the great become terrific. Apply the Pareto Principle to all you do, but use it wisely.***


So...didn't Christ say that the shepherd left the 99 to look for the one lost sheep that went astray? Are you saying that since only 20 % of the people in your congregation produce the results pleasing to you, you will let the other 80% go astray?


Aside from all this nonsense, at the end of each of our lives, we will give a true accounting to our Lord and Savior for what we do that matters to HIM. And we will answer for our attitude in how we serve Him. He knows us through and through and while the 'trailer trash' may not be pleasing to another human being, God may see his heart of gold, a humble spirit, or a broken spirit.

In the end, it doesn't matter if we are one of the leadership's 20% who praise our works or if we are the trailer trash that is despised. God is righteous and will judge each one of our works righteously.

We will see if Pareto's Principle is respected by God.

[tv1a]

Christ said to worry about the beam in your own eye before the speck out of someone else's eye. The people the alleged actions affect are the people in Memphis. A hangnail in your finger isn't going to affect your ability to walk. While feet and hands are part of the same body, they work independant of each other. The foot doesn't get bent out of shape if your finger has a hangnail. The foot keeps on doing what its supposed to do without griping about the weakness of the finger.

Again you fail to grasp the of the 80/20 rule. A couple wikipedia comments cut and pasted doesn't give the whole story. Studies shows on a good day, people are lucky to retain 80 percent of what they hear.

Let's see how the 80/20 principle worked in the Bible. Out of the thousands jesus ministered to, He chose 70. Christ narrowed the 70 to 12. Out 500 in the upper room, 120 stayed for the promise. 80/20 rule.

Your job isn't to get people saved. Your job is to mentor them. Jesus gave the mandate to make disciples. Jesus spent more time with His disciples than He did with the multitudes. Jesus didn't beg for disciples. When people didn't accept the invitation to be a disciple, Jesus went on.

You are confusing charity and compassion with discipleship. No one is suggesting to make irrational rushes to judgement with the poor. The role of 80/20 in the church ministry is to teach the 20 percent to be productive and fruitful. In otherwords grow the 20 percent expontentially.

Your conclusions are based on faulty analysis. More examples of the 80/20 rule. Joshua, Caleb an estimated 20 percent used to lead people to the promised land.
Observing and commenting on a situation is neither self anointed, nor self appointed.

But I and other people do have a right to observe and comment any situation that concerns the church. I do not divide Christ's church into separate anthills. Anything that happens 100, 1000, 5000 miles from me or even around the world that represents Christ, affects me because I am in the same church as they. There is only one church and it is Christ's church. The image that any Holy Ghost filled person creates by the deeds they do affects the entire body of Christ, both here and afar. If a minister who is respected across the country has a moral failure, the entire body of Christ suffers from the pain.

People are weird creatures. They want to deny the effect that another man's moral failure has on the body, but are willing to castigate another class of people (muslims) when their leaders commit sin and attribute that to that entire class of people.


And gee...you get worse and worse in your comparisons. The Pareto rule? It's a rule based on economics, but it can be applied to anything...just as you say. So ok. Let's apply it to your church system. And lets use this website as a guide that gives more of an explanation than you did.

http://management.about.com/cs/generalmanagement/a/Pareto081202.htm

***In 1906, Italian economist Vilfredo Pareto created a mathematical formula to describe the unequal distribution of wealth in his country, observing that twenty percent of the people owned eighty percent of the wealth. In the late 1940s, Dr. Joseph M. Juran inaccurately attributed the 80/20 Rule to Pareto, calling it Pareto's Principle. While it may be misnamed, Pareto's Principle or Pareto's Law as it is sometimes called, can be a very effective tool to help you manage effectively.***

So...you apply this to your church system. A pastor can use this principle to the people within the four walls of a church building.

Continuing on.....

***Where It Came From

After Pareto made his observation and created his formula, many others observed similar phenomena in their own areas of expertise. Quality Management pioneer, Dr. Joseph Juran, working in the US in the 1930s and 40s recognized a universal principle he called the "vital few and trivial many" and reduced it to writing. In an early work, a lack of precision on Juran's part made it appear that he was applying Pareto's observations about economics to a broader body of work. The name Pareto's Principle stuck, probably because it sounded better than Juran's Principle.
As a result, Dr. Juran's observation of the "vital few and trivial many", the principle that 20 percent of something always are responsible for 80 percent of the results, became known as Pareto's Principle or the 80/20 Rule.

What It Means

The 80/20 Rule means that in anything a few (20 percent) are vital and many(80 percent) are trivial.***

So...are you saying that in your church system, 20 percent are vital to you and the rest (80 % ) are trivial members? Do you discount that 80 percent who are looking for Christ?

Gee...what happened to the church proclaiming to be a beacon of light to Christ if 80% of the people are considered to be trivial IF you apply your Pareto's scientific study to human beings?

I guess it is easy to discount human beings thought of as trailor trash or lazy welfare recipients. Don't mess with em because they will never be anything more than what they are now. (tic)

Yeah...and don't cross over to the other side of the road and be a good samaritan to the man who was robbed and left for dead.


You have your reward here on earth.



***In Pareto's case it meant 20 percent of the people owned 80 percent of the wealth.***

Or are you saying that in your church system 20 percent of the people at the top own 80 percent of the wealth in the church. Does this apply at TB's church for example?



*** In Juran's initial work he identified 20 percent of the defects causing 80 percent of the problems. Project Managers know that 20 percent of the work (the first 10 percent and the last 10 percent) consume 80 percent of your time and resources. You can apply the 80/20 Rule to almost anything, from the science of management to the physical world. [how about the spiritual world?]
You know 20 percent of your stock takes up 80 percent of your warehouse space and that 80 percent of your stock comes from 20 percent of your suppliers. Also 80 percent of your sales will come from 20 percent of your sales staff. 20 percent of your staff will cause 80 percent of your problems, but another 20 percent of your staff will provide 80 percent of your production. It works both ways.***


Now we will get down to the nitty gritty.

***How It Can Help You

The value of the Pareto Principle for a manager is that it reminds you to focus on the 20 percent that matters.***

So...if you apply this principle to your congregation, it is telling me that you only want to focus on the 20 percent of the people and everybody else can be considered to be trivial or trailer trash.

Hmmm....Did Paul teach that people were trivial? Or trailer trash because they were common...poor...simple?

I am going to skip the next portion to get to this. One can read it from the link if so desires.


***There is a management theory floating around at the moment that proposes to interpret Pareto's Principle in such a way as to produce what is called Superstar Management. The theory's supporters claim that since 20 percent of your people produce 80 percent of your results you should focus your limited time on managing only that 20 percent, the superstars. The theory is flawed, as we are discussing here because it overlooks the fact that 80 percent of your time should be spent doing what is really important. Helping the good become better is a better use of your time than helping the great become terrific. Apply the Pareto Principle to all you do, but use it wisely.***


So...didn't Christ say that the shepherd left the 99 to look for the one lost sheep that went astray? Are you saying that since only 20 % of the people in your congregation produce the results pleasing to you, you will let the other 80% go astray?


Aside from all this nonsense, at the end of each of our lives, we will give a true accounting to our Lord and Savior for what we do that matters to HIM. And we will answer for our attitude in how we serve Him. He knows us through and through and while the 'trailer trash' may not be pleasing to another human being, God may see his heart of gold, a humble spirit, or a broken spirit.

In the end, it doesn't matter if we are one of the leadership's 20% who praise our works or if we are the trailer trash that is despised. God is righteous and will judge each one of our works righteously.

We will see if Pareto's Principle is respected by God.

[IbelongtoJesus]

Just wondering, but does the attached picture look like the face of a repentant man to you? Cause it sure doesn't to me. This is the profile picture he posted on FB October 24th. Kind of like he is mocking us all laid back in his nice expensive car, paid for with church funds(a new car every 3 yrs). I would have posted it before now, but he keeps getting on FB, updating his picture, and then deactivating his account, this has happened at least 3 times in the last month.

I previously have stated on this forum that he was a repentant man, and was given this information by a source very close to the situation. While he may have tried to seem repentant to them so he might possibly keep some of his public image intact, I do not believe his actions show that he is repentant. He has left TPC with VERY LITTLE money, and a mound of debt accrued by building a daycare on a property that we aren't even "supposed" to be staying at. Properties with taxes unpaid for 5-7 yrs, yet roughly 3 million in annual income for the church?? No new building, virtually non existent building fund, a partially complete 1.3 million dollar daycare(not sure why, because it isn't THAT nice) and very little left in the general fund. YET, he wants the church to pay him a severance package in excess of $250,000?!?! Doesn't seem like he is all too repentant to me.

I withdrawal my previous posts.

[Charnock]

I guess I don't see what's so evil about the picture. Am I missing something?

[AreYouReady?]

Christ said to worry about the beam in your own eye before the speck out of someone else's eye. The people the alleged actions affect are the people in Memphis. A hangnail in your finger isn't going to affect your ability to walk. While feet and hands are part of the same body, they work independant of each other. The foot doesn't get bent out of shape if your finger has a hangnail. The foot keeps on doing what its supposed to do without griping about the weakness of the finger.

:blah:blah:blah Here comes the lecture from you.

Let me tell you something. When people deliberately fail God, it reverberates for hundreds of miles around and does not stay in one little place. Is the entire body of Christ in Memphis? No, but what happens in Memphis affects those in NY, or CA. If you feel it is none of your business then you should stay out of it.


Again you fail to grasp the of the 80/20 rule. A couple wikipedia comments cut and pasted doesn't give the whole story. Studies shows on a good day, people are lucky to retain 80 percent of what they hear.

Let's see how the 80/20 principle worked in the Bible. Out of the thousands jesus ministered to, He chose 70. Christ narrowed the 70 to 12. Out 500 in the upper room, 120 stayed for the promise. 80/20 rule.

I seriously doubt that Christ was out to prove a 80/20 principle when He chose the 70 among the thousands. Christ looked for the right conditions in each of the men's hearts.

If you are going to teach 80/20 principles, then you are into extrabiblical curriculum. We are to teach Christ's principles.

So are you trying to equate yourself with Jesus so you think that you can dismiss the 80% in your church system and describe them with derogatory names?

That is not a Christ-like attitude.
Christ mainly rebuked the leadership of that day. The Pharisees and Saducees earned his rebukes, and rightly so.

Matthew 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
13 ¶But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.
19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?
20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.
21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.
22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.
23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. [standards?]
26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.


Your job isn't to get people saved. Your job is to mentor them. Jesus gave the mandate to make disciples. Jesus spent more time with His disciples than He did with the multitudes. Jesus didn't beg for disciples. When people didn't accept the invitation to be a disciple, Jesus went on.


And you do not tell me what my job is. Christ does. So don't make the mistake of thinking that you have that authority. You don't.

Let's be real here. The disciples many ministers think that they make do not end up interacting with the multitudes. Let's take a look at the type of people Christ made for disciples.

Peter: He was a fisherman from Capernaum
Andrew: He was Peter's brother and fishing partner; John's gospel says that Andrew was first a disciple of John the Baptist.
James: He was son of Zebedee and a fisherman from Capernaum.
John: He was James's brother and partner in the family fishing business.
Philip: He was from Bethsaida, another town on the coast of the Sea of Galilee.
Bartholomew: Not much is known from the scriptures about him.
Matthew: He's called a toll collector in Matthew's gospel.
Thomas: Went down in history as 'doubting Thomas' because he did not believe Christ was risen.
James: This man, who was the son of Alphaeus, was called in later tradition "James the Less" — not to be confused with James the Great or James brother of Jesus (James was obviously a popular name at the time!).
Simon: He was called "the Cananean" (which means "zealous" or "jealous" in Aramaic)
Thaddeus: There's a bit of controversy when it comes to this 11th disciple. In Mark and Matthew, he's called Thaddeus. Luke, on the other hand, calls this man Jude, son of James.
Judas Iscariot: The betrayer of Christ.

Most of these men were not of great esteem at all. Fishermen, publican, a skeptic. Was Judas among the 'outstanding 20%' ? No. Jesus knew what was in Judas when he picked him to be his disciple. He knew that Judas was going to fulfill God's will for Christ to give his life for many. So that alone blows your theory out of the water.

There is not much difference between the leadership of that day and the leadership of today. Many of them (but not all) put themselves into a special class above the people. They sit on a seat which is on an elevated platform above the people. They demand a portion of their hard earned money. Around here, they have minister dinners, served to them by the saints, in private and only ministers are invited.


You are confusing charity and compassion with discipleship. No one is suggesting to make irrational rushes to judgement with the poor. The role of 80/20 in the church ministry is to teach the 20 percent to be productive and fruitful. In otherwords grow the 20 percent expontentially.

Your conclusions are based on faulty analysis. More examples of the 80/20 rule. Joshua, Caleb an estimated 20 percent used to lead people to the promised land.

The whole 80/20 suggestion you make is faulty. I ended up calling it nonsense in my last post.

Peter said whosoever will...and to those a far off...not 20 percent. That means Jesus calls millions, but who can put a percentage on how many give their lives to God? And who can decide for another what God wants them to do for Him? Only God has that perogative.

No one is suggesting to make irrational rushes to judgement with the poor? You did. You call them trailer trash. It is this mindset that I take exception to. I wonder if you will cozy up to the man who comes into the sanctuary wearing his best Sunday clothing while you would try to hide the "trailer trash" somewhere.

Do not think that you had some sort of epiphany of a scientific observation. In 40 years I have not seen your 80/20 rule actually succeed in action. If a pastor actually managed to turn 20 percent of his congregation into 'disciples', they ended up being in an exclusive clique within the church system and won't get their spiritual hands dirty with the serfs that attend in the congregation.

Sorry. But that has been my experience in the organized church system.

[CC1]

Just wondering, but does the attached picture look like the face of a repentant man to you? Cause it sure doesn't to me. This is the profile picture he posted on FB October 24th. Kind of like he is mocking us all laid back in his nice expensive car, paid for with church funds(a new car every 3 yrs). I would have posted it before now, but he keeps getting on FB, updating his picture, and then deactivating his account, this has happened at least 3 times in the last month.

I previously have stated on this forum that he was a repentant man, and was given this information by a source very close to the situation. While he may have tried to seem repentant to them so he might possibly keep some of his public image intact, I do not believe his actions show that he is repentant. He has left TPC with VERY LITTLE money, and a mound of debt accrued by building a daycare on a property that we aren't even "supposed" to be staying at. Properties with taxes unpaid for 5-7 yrs, yet roughly 3 million in annual income for the church?? No new building, virtually non existent building fund, a partially complete 1.3 million dollar daycare(not sure why, because it isn't THAT nice) and very little left in the general fund. YET, he wants the church to pay him a severance package in excess of $250,000?!?! Doesn't seem like he is all too repentant to me.

I withdrawal my previous posts.

Looks like he's got one of his preaching suits in the back so he was probably on his way to a preaching gig.

[IbelongtoJesus]

I guess I don't see what's so evil about the picture. Am I missing something?

I didn't say it was evil. He just doesn't look like a once "prominent and powerful man" who is now "broken" due to pornography, adultery, ect. He just doesn't look very repentant, due to the "smug" look on his face.

[IbelongtoJesus]

Looks like he's got one of his preaching suits in the back so he was probably on his way to a preaching gig.

I would sure hope not.

[StillStanding]

I didn't say it was evil. He just doesn't look like a once "prominent and powerful man" who is now "broken" due to pornography, adultery, ect. He just doesn't look very repentant, due to the "smug" look on his face.

Are you saying he should only post pictures on his FB page that show him in anguish and wearing sackcloth and ashes? Maybe have the letter "A" sewed to the front of all his suits? How about an "L" put on his forehead with ashes?

I don't believe he should pastor, and that is what has happened. After that, what he does with his life and how he dresses or looks is in God's hands.

[Barb]

Are you saying he should only post pictures on his FB page that show him in anguish and wearing sackcloth and ashes? Maybe have the letter "A" sewed to the front of all his suits? How about an "L" put on his forehead with ashes?

I don't believe he should pastor, and that is what has happened. After that, what he does with his life and how he dresses or looks is in God's hands.

Standing in the pulpit, in front of the community of believers who trusted that he was an honorable man of God, calling people "jackals" who opposed him, gives us an indication of the spirit behind the man.

That picture showed the look of a man full of himself. Sorry if that is judging a book by it's cover, but he looks cocky to me.

[returnman]

Standing in the pulpit, in front of the community of believers who trusted that he was an honorable man of God, calling people "jackals" who opposed him, gives us an indication of the spirit behind the man.

That picture showed the look of a man full of himself. Sorry if that is judging a book by it's cover, but he looks cocky to me.


I believe TB lived a life for many years that was honorable and above board. I also think that over time without fully realizing it, that he was susciptible to the things he preached so hard against and when he fell, he fell hard. I have no idea of his current condition of the heart but he may very well have decided at some point to go all out in the flesh. He should have walked away at that point.

[IbelongtoJesus]

Are you saying he should only post pictures on his FB page that show him in anguish and wearing sackcloth and ashes? Maybe have the letter "A" sewed to the front of all his suits? How about an "L" put on his forehead with ashes?

I don't believe he should pastor, and that is what has happened. After that, what he does with his life and how he dresses or looks is in God's hands.

Considering he is fighting, through arbitration, to get his $250,000 severance package from the church that he left practically broke, I would say that him bouncing on and off of FB(which btw, he took down his page almost immediately after changing his profile picture AGAIN last night) knowing that most everyone who is a member of TPC is on his friends list, so everytime he reactivates his account and changes his profile picture, we all get notifications from it. So we see the smug look on his face, totally in becoming of a man of God. So what he does actually is still affecting the church.

[returnman]

Considering he is fighting, through arbitration, to get his $250,000 severance package from the church that he left practically broke, I would say that him bouncing on and off of FB(which btw, he took down his page almost immediately after changing his profile picture AGAIN last night) knowing that most everyone who is a member of TPC is on his friends list, so everytime he reactivates his account and changes his profile picture, we all get notifications from it. So we see the smug look on his face, totally in becoming of a man of God. So what he does actually is still affecting the church.

Why would they owe him a dime?

[tv1a]

You logic is faulty on many levels. Its called the 80/20 rule. You make it sound like it is all or nothing. Do you know the difference between discipleship with evangelism? Jesus said many are called but few are chosen. Christ said the fields are ready but the workers are few. The Bible is full of examples of the few conquoring the many.

No one is dismissing the 80 percent. It's not an either or proposition. Spending 80% of your time with the 20% who will maximize the results still leaves you 20% of your time to work with the 80%.

Some of the ways to increase the number of productive members is small groups and new member assimilation. Small groups and new member courses increases the chance of adding more to the 20 percent.

The religious application of 80/20 is to disciple the few to reach the masses. Anyone left behind is left because they don't want to be involved.

Another Biblical principle indirectly supporting 80/20 is if one puts 1,000 to flight, 2 puts 10,000 to flight. Principle remains few can impact many.

Another key point you miss in the equation is 80/20 is a percentage. That means the real numbers varies. Easy math. 20% of 10 is 2, of 100 is 20, of 1,000 is 200. The disciples were a clique. Peter, James, and John were too busy praying, studying and preaching to take care of the widows. The found 12 men. One was Stephen, the other Phillip. One had an impact on Paul. The other impacted Samaria and Ethiopia.


The 80/20 principle can and often expands just like your tithe increases with a pay raise.

The Memphis Mess is only your problem if you make it your problem. TB is a big fish in a little fish tank. Sticking your nose in someone else's fish tak doesn't help the situation. Did the church in Galatia put the two sense in about the freak fest in Corinth. No they didn't. The unfortunate events in Memphis exposes the sharks disguised as sheep. I doubt half the people in your circle of influence know of TB. It's barely a ripple in world of christiandom. I'm certain your opinion of second hand info will do a lot to help the healing.



:blah:blah:blah Here comes the lecture from you.

Let me tell you something. When people deliberately fail God, it reverberates for hundreds of miles around and does not stay in one little place. Is the entire body of Christ in Memphis? No, but what happens in Memphis affects those in NY, or CA. If you feel it is none of your business then you should stay out of it.




I seriously doubt that Christ was out to prove a 80/20 principle when He chose the 70 among the thousands. Christ looked for the right conditions in each of the men's hearts.

If you are going to teach 80/20 principles, then you are into extrabiblical curriculum. We are to teach Christ's principles.

So are you trying to equate yourself with Jesus so you think that you can dismiss the 80% in your church system and describe them with derogatory names?

That is not a Christ-like attitude.
Christ mainly rebuked the leadership of that day. The Pharisees and Saducees earned his rebukes, and rightly so.

Matthew 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
13 ¶But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.
19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?
20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.
21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.
22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.
23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. [standards?]
26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.





And you do not tell me what my job is. Christ does. So don't make the mistake of thinking that you have that authority. You don't.

Let's be real here. The disciples many ministers think that they make do not end up interacting with the multitudes. Let's take a look at the type of people Christ made for disciples.

Peter: He was a fisherman from Capernaum
Andrew: He was Peter's brother and fishing partner; John's gospel says that Andrew was first a disciple of John the Baptist.
James: He was son of Zebedee and a fisherman from Capernaum.
John: He was James's brother and partner in the family fishing business.
Philip: He was from Bethsaida, another town on the coast of the Sea of Galilee.
Bartholomew: Not much is known from the scriptures about him.
Matthew: He's called a toll collector in Matthew's gospel.
Thomas: Went down in history as 'doubting Thomas' because he did not believe Christ was risen.
James: This man, who was the son of Alphaeus, was called in later tradition "James the Less" — not to be confused with James the Great or James brother of Jesus (James was obviously a popular name at the time!).
Simon: He was called "the Cananean" (which means "zealous" or "jealous" in Aramaic)
Thaddeus: There's a bit of controversy when it comes to this 11th disciple. In Mark and Matthew, he's called Thaddeus. Luke, on the other hand, calls this man Jude, son of James.
Judas Iscariot: The betrayer of Christ.

Most of these men were not of great esteem at all. Fishermen, publican, a skeptic. Was Judas among the 'outstanding 20%' ? No. Jesus knew what was in Judas when he picked him to be his disciple. He knew that Judas was going to fulfill God's will for Christ to give his life for many. So that alone blows your theory out of the water.

There is not much difference between the leadership of that day and the leadership of today. Many of them (but not all) put themselves into a special class above the people. They sit on a seat which is on an elevated platform above the people. They demand a portion of their hard earned money. Around here, they have minister dinners, served to them by the saints, in private and only ministers are invited.




The whole 80/20 suggestion you make is faulty. I ended up calling it nonsense in my last post.

Peter said whosoever will...and to those a far off...not 20 percent. That means Jesus calls millions, but who can put a percentage on how many give their lives to God? And who can decide for another what God wants them to do for Him? Only God has that perogative.

No one is suggesting to make irrational rushes to judgement with the poor? You did. You call them trailer trash. It is this mindset that I take exception to. I wonder if you will cozy up to the man who comes into the sanctuary wearing his best Sunday clothing while you would try to hide the "trailer trash" somewhere.

Do not think that you had some sort of epiphany of a scientific observation. In 40 years I have not seen your 80/20 rule actually succeed in action. If a pastor actually managed to turn 20 percent of his congregation into 'disciples', they ended up being in an exclusive clique within the church system and won't get their spiritual hands dirty with the serfs that attend in the congregation.

Sorry. But that has been my experience in the organized church system.

[Timmy]

When will this reach 100,000 views? My guess: Nov 12.

[maui]

Considering he is fighting, through arbitration, to get his $250,000 severance package from the church that he left practically broke, I would say that him bouncing on and off of FB(which btw, he took down his page almost immediately after changing his profile picture AGAIN last night) knowing that most everyone who is a member of TPC is on his friends list, so everytime he reactivates his account and changes his profile picture, we all get notifications from it. So we see the smug look on his face, totally in becoming of a man of God. So what he does actually is still affecting the church.


My thoughts are that he might not be activating his account to prove a point to the church ppl but its possible he's attempting to open a new account with new friends but he doesn't know how to do it..just a thought...

[canam]

i didnt see the pic as being smug more like dead pan i dont see him driving a beemer as being outrageous they aint that expensive are they?, no different than a caddy. now if it was a mercedes 600 sl or something else in excess of 100/ 120 thou ok, besides you can lease them pretty cheap too.

[Sherri]

A severance package????? Am I missing something here?:foottap

[Sister Alvear]

Sad...sad...I have worked 44 years the church owes me nothing....

[houston]

A severance package????? Am I missing something here?:foottap

Don't pretend that you don't have money stashed away.

[IbelongtoJesus]

My thoughts are that he might not be activating his account to prove a point to the church ppl but its possible he's attempting to open a new account with new friends but he doesn't know how to do it..just a thought...

As a person on the outside looking in, that might seem possible. As a member, who knows much more than I'm putting on here, I would like to give him the benefit of the doubt but I just can't.

[chad1957662]

This maybe a petty fact, but the church has only about 1.5M per year and not 3M in giving, at least this is what was told to me by a preacher friend in the Chicago area that use to go there.

Websites of interest:

http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/pamela.karn?fref=ts
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/pamela-radford/37/369/3






Just wondering, but does the attached picture look like the face of a repentant man to you? Cause it sure doesn't to me. This is the profile picture he posted on FB October 24th. Kind of like he is mocking us all laid back in his nice expensive car, paid for with church funds(a new car every 3 yrs). I would have posted it before now, but he keeps getting on FB, updating his picture, and then deactivating his account, this has happened at least 3 times in the last month.

I previously have stated on this forum that he was a repentant man, and was given this information by a source very close to the situation. While he may have tried to seem repentant to them so he might possibly keep some of his public image intact, I do not believe his actions show that he is repentant. He has left TPC with VERY LITTLE money, and a mound of debt accrued by building a daycare on a property that we aren't even "supposed" to be staying at. Properties with taxes unpaid for 5-7 yrs, yet roughly 3 million in annual income for the church?? No new building, virtually non existent building fund, a partially complete 1.3 million dollar daycare(not sure why, because it isn't THAT nice) and very little left in the general fund. YET, he wants the church to pay him a severance package in excess of $250,000?!?! Doesn't seem like he is all too repentant to me.

I withdrawal my previous posts.

[IbelongtoJesus]

i didnt see the pic as being smug more like dead pan i dont see him driving a beemer as being outrageous they aint that expensive are they?, no different than a caddy. now if it was a mercedes 600 sl or something else in excess of 100/ 120 thou ok, besides you can lease them pretty cheap too.

Honestly I don't have a clue the type of car he drives, other than someone standing up in the meeting questioning his hundred thousand dollar car and that the church pays for a new one every three years. So he's definitely not leasing that car.

[IbelongtoJesus]

This maybe a petty fact, but the church has only about 1.5M per year and not 3M in giving, at least this is what was told to me by a preacher friend in the Chicago area that use to go there.

Websites of interest:

http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/pamela.karn?fref=ts
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/pamela-radford/37/369/3

Well I go to church there and I'm basing my numbers on what was read off the actual financial report given in the church meeting that I attended. Although the preacher in Chicago is a very reliable source in the matter.

[Blubayou]

Whew! I haven't checked in with AFF in about a month! I spent about 3 hours catching up on this thread. My heart goes out to the members of this church. My family experienced something similar, but not on this grand of a scale. It brought back the emotions , confusion, grief and the feeling of being cut loose without an anchor. After, prayer and study,I realized that my relationship was with Jesus, not a church, or a pastor. I had to spend time building that relationship. I still attend a UPC church, but my eyes are open, I am not vested in it. I am vested in my relationship with Christ. I understand that the UPC is a ministerial alliance only. Their allegiance is with the ministers, just like the AMA allegiance is with doctors.
Just my two cents!

[AreYouReady?]

You logic is faulty on many levels. Its called the 80/20 rule. You make it sound like it is all or nothing. Do you know the difference between discipleship with evangelism?

I wish you would quit condescending me.

Maybe my mistake in discussing this with you is that I am assuming you are a pastor. Are you? Because that will make a big difference in my thoughts. If you are, then you cannot neglect 80% of the people in your church system. If you are not, then I can see you working with a few people to teach. But heavens! If you teach people the way you post on these forums, I honestly don't know how much good you are doing. I say this with a honest heart and without malice on my part.

Jesus said many are called but few are chosen. Christ said the fields are ready but the workers are few. The Bible is full of examples of the few conquoring the many.

No one is dismissing the 80 percent. It's not an either or proposition. Spending 80% of your time with the 20% who will maximize the results still leaves you 20% of your time to work with the 80%.

Are Christians supposed to be "conquering" people? That concept would be 'nicolaitan' principles or deeds, which Christ said He hates. I think I would rephrase that if I were you.

But...you don't do it...do you? That is... spend the other 20% of your time with the 80% of the people. If you are a pastor, that is very little time for the bulk amount of people.

How many of your hypothetical 20% will go out and evangelize? No doubt there will be a few. But my experience with the few who spends an extraordinary time with the pastor tells me that most of them likely consider themselves to be in the 'inner circle', the 'elite' of the church, and form their own clique that shuts everybody else out. I haven't seen a church yet that does not do this. Perhaps there are, but not in my region.

The religious application of 80/20 is to disciple the few to reach the masses. Anyone left behind is left because they don't want to be involved.

That is not true and you know it..you just won't admit it.

Reality is, there are very few people who actually commit themselves to reach the masses.

Another Biblical principle indirectly supporting 80/20 is if one puts 1,000 to flight, 2 puts 10,000 to flight. Principle remains few can impact many.

Another key point you miss in the equation is 80/20 is a percentage. That means the real numbers varies. Easy math. 20% of 10 is 2, of 100 is 20, of 1,000 is 200. The disciples were a clique. Peter, James, and John were too busy praying, studying and preaching to take care of the widows. The found 12 men. One was Stephen, the other Phillip. One had an impact on Paul. The other impacted Samaria and Ethiopia.

More condescending on your part towards me. I did not miss that percentages vary in any given situation. I thought that would be a slam dunk knowledge given for the reader so that nobody had to explain. I am a medical professional who dealt with ratios and percentages when giving medications. So please do not underestimate my intelligence. Keep in the back of your mind that I know many of these things and do not want to take up space making long posts. If people do not know, they usually ask for clarification.

However, back to the topic...
If this were true today, then why aren't our cities busting at the seams, overflowing with pentecostal churches? Why aren't the headquarters doing seminars for outreach ministry? Why aren't groups of people with 20% teaching them growing and dividing and taking out of their numbers another 20 % to teach and grow another group of people? I've been a member of 2 churches and attended a third OP church and virtually NONE of them had an outreach program and resented anybody who brought up the subject.

I'm going to tell you why. It's because when they get enough people..someone decides they want to pastor and starts a church with their ordinances, laws and bylaws and they want their church to grow to mega size. They don't want people to leave, not even 20% to go out and teach in the inner cities, the highways and the byways and have another fellowship starting, dividing and developing...constantly splitting and reaching out, growing...dividing again, reaching out...growing... you get the picture.

You are going by the actions of the Apostles that happened over 2000 years ago...even how the Apostles set up the church system back then, does not even remotely resemble what the organized church system has today. Today's system is...well...just messed up when compared to the early church.

As for the widows...they were Grecian widows who were neglected in the daily ministrations. The Apostles understood that they cannot do everything, thus delegated the more simpler matters to the brethren to take out 7 men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom to oversee these matters. I honestly doubt that they used 'scientific observations of a 80/20 principle' to ensure this to happen. They just used good common sense.

The Apostles were outreaching with the preaching of the gospel of Christ and delegated the more physically necessary matters to honest holy ghost filled men. We don't even get that type of outreach today. Everyone is shut up into their own little box. Many pastors do not want to delegate some of the responsibilities to other Holy Ghost men and women.


The 80/20 principle can and often expands just like your tithe increases with a pay raise.

The Memphis Mess is only your problem if you make it your problem. TB is a big fish in a little fish tank. Sticking your nose in someone else's fish tak doesn't help the situation. Did the church in Galatia put the two sense in about the freak fest in Corinth. No they didn't. The unfortunate events in Memphis exposes the sharks disguised as sheep. I doubt half the people in your circle of influence know of TB. It's barely a ripple in world of christiandom. I'm certain your opinion of second hand info will do a lot to help the healing.

Tva1, are you just another person who wants to use mathematical and scientific methods or gimmicks to "reach people" for Christ?

Christ don't need 80/20 principle of some man to reach the people. Neither does man who truly believes in the power of the blood. In fact, I think man uses whatever gimmick he can find to catch people's attention instead of just preaching the gospel of Christ and the Cross. You can blather all you want on the issue of 80/20 rule and I bet it will net you far less than your expectations, but the love of God and the blood of Christ from the cross will be God's only acceptable way to reach people. All of this nonsense came up because I am appalled at your use of derogatory terms for human beings that either fell upon hard times or play the system. Even those who play the system need educating how wrong it is to do so if they are able bodied. Godly influence in their life can convict a soul into themselves wanting to do better.

Now you are adding the rule to the tithe paying, which is just another OT law you and many others dug up so you can have a steady paycheck. Pitiful!

Go ahead and preach to your 20 percent and call other people derogatory names, like you have already done in this thread. Your posts indicate that you lack love for your fellow man. You talk about discipleship...but what does Christ say about true discipleship?

By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

(John 13:35)

Good luck with your gimmicks because you are going to need them.

As far as Memphis is concerned, you do not know who the people in my circle are. If I were sticking my nose in the Memphis mess, I would be over there in that church system digging up dirt to tell. There is a big difference between doing that and posting my opinion, which I do have a right to do.

Why? Because I have a very close loved one who moved to Memphis and is looking for a OP church to visit and maybe regularly attend. It would be unacceptable for my loved one to walk into that "Memphis mess". So yes, it is my concern because I do not want my loved one walking into that type of unstable and unbiblical situation that might shape what my loved one views about oneness pentecostal churches.

[Fiyahstarter]

...how the Apostles set up the church system back then, does not even remotely resemble what the organized church system has today. Today's system is...well...just messed up when compared to the early church.

I think man uses whatever gimmick he can find to catch people's attention instead of just preaching the gospel of Christ and the Cross... but the love of God and the blood of Christ from the cross will be God's only acceptable way to reach people.

Now you are adding the rule to the tithe paying, which is just another OT law you and many others dug up so you can have a steady paycheck. Pitiful!

Good luck with your gimmicks because you are going to need them.



:yourock

[Sarah]

A severance package????? Am I missing something here?:foottap

That's what I've heard. How arrogant can you get...

[deacon blues]

Sad...sad...I have worked 44 years the church owes me nothing....

Beautiful

[maui]

what i've heard, is that he is going to washington Dc. not sure if its to stay or what his purpose is.

[tv1a]

...

I wish you would quit condescending me.

Maybe my mistake in discussing this with you is that I am assuming you are a pastor. Are you? Because that will make a big difference in my thoughts. If you are, then you cannot neglect 80% of the people in your church system. If you are not, then I can see you working with a few people to teach. But heavens! If you teach people the way you post on these forums, I honestly don't know how much good you are doing. I say this with a honest heart and without malice on my part.
I'm not offended by your statement. My style doesn't work well with religious people. It is easier for me to teach Biblical principles to hungry new people than to teach christians entrenched in a religious system. Ironically, most of my time is training and teaching new people. My mentoring style is successful.


Are Christians supposed to be "conquering" people? That concept would be 'nicolaitan' principles or deeds, which Christ said He hates. I think I would rephrase that if I were you.

A better term is influencing people to live a particular lifestyle.

But...you don't do it...do you? That is... spend the other 20% of your time with the 80% of the people. If you are a pastor, that is very little time for the bulk amount of people.

You assume everyone in the 80% needs you all at once. The fact is they don't. Not everyone is in the 80% is in the hospital or is experiencing a personal crisis at the same time. You address the needs as they occur.

How many of your hypothetical 20% will go out and evangelize? No doubt there will be a few. But my experience with the few who spends an extraordinary time with the pastor tells me that most of them likely consider themselves to be in the 'inner circle', the 'elite' of the church, and form their own clique that shuts everybody else out. I haven't seen a church yet that does not do this. Perhaps there are, but not in my region.

Jesus had the same problem. He pointed that out a few times. Evangelism takes on different forms. I'm not sure how you would define evangelism. Evangelism could be as simple as sharing your testimony with someone. Evangelism could be an organized outreach to the community. Some people evangelize on the street corner thumping a Bible.

Outreach is important. It is the pastor's responsibility to teach the importance of evangelism. Outreach is what keeps the church from growing stale.



That is not true and you know it..you just won't admit it.
My experiences in legalism is most seasoned chrsitians are happy to sit on the pew, give a few bucks in the offering, maybe show up on church workday or help with a fundraiser and that's about it. The sad part is the people who want to help can't because they don't make the grade.

Reality is, there are very few people who actually commit themselves to reach the masses.

If this were true today, then why aren't our cities busting at the seams, overflowing with pentecostal churches? Why aren't the headquarters doing seminars for outreach ministry? Why aren't groups of people with 20% teaching them growing and dividing and taking out of their numbers another 20 % to teach and grow another group of people? I've been a member of 2 churches and attended a third OP church and virtually NONE of them had an outreach program and resented anybody who brought up the subject.

I'm going to tell you why. It's because when they get enough people..someone decides they want to pastor and starts a church with their ordinances, laws and bylaws and they want their church to grow to mega size. They don't want people to leave, not even 20% to go out and teach in the inner cities, the highways and the byways and have another fellowship starting, dividing and developing...constantly splitting and reaching out, growing...dividing again, reaching out...growing... you get the picture.

I understand you are looking at this through a oneness apostolic pentecostal prism. You are correct. OP's have a poor track record overall in personal evangelism. I know of churches outside the OP movement who realize the need to grow molecularly. OP's usually split because of disagreements. Some of the successful ministries I've been involved with or observed have established multiple churches in various locations. Once those churches are established, they run independent of the mother church. Non OP's aren't afraid of growing, splitting, creating new life. I don't know how to correct it in the OP movement. I gave up trying. If I can be encouraging, you don't need the masses to turn the world upside down. Jesus started with twelve.

You are going by the actions of the Apostles that happened over 2000 years ago...even how the Apostles set up the church system back then, does not even remotely resemble what the organized church system has today. Today's system is...well...just messed up when compared to the early church.

Today's system is just as messed up from the pew as it is from the pulpit. Many saints abdicate their responsibilities. For example, who do the saints call when someone is sick? The pastor. Who are they supposed to call? James said call the elders. How many board members do you know will go pray for the sick? Why do many elders avoid that responsibility? The Bible guarantees when the elder prays for the sick, the person will recover AND their sins will be forgiven. If you can trust an elder/board member to pray for the sick and get results, you got a board member who is in tuned to the heartbeat of God. Those are the kind of board members I love to work with.

As for the widows...they were Grecian widows who were neglected in the daily ministrations. The Apostles understood that they cannot do everything, thus delegated the more simpler matters to the brethren to take out 7 men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom to oversee these matters. I honestly doubt that they used 'scientific observations of a 80/20 principle' to ensure this to happen. They just used good common sense.

The Apostles were outreaching with the preaching of the gospel of Christ and delegated the more physically necessary matters to honest holy ghost filled men. We don't even get that type of outreach today. Everyone is shut up into their own little box. Many pastors do not want to delegate some of the responsibilities to other Holy Ghost men and women.

In one post, you take an issue with spending time to train people to do the work of the ministry, then you take issue that pastors don't want to delegate.

Tva1, are you just another person who wants to use mathematical and scientific methods or gimmicks to "reach people" for Christ?

Christ don't need 80/20 principle of some man to reach the people. Neither does man who truly believes in the power of the blood. In fact, I think man uses whatever gimmick he can find to catch people's attention instead of just preaching the gospel of Christ and the Cross. You can blather all you want on the issue of 80/20 rule and I bet it will net you far less than your expectations, but the love of God and the blood of Christ from the cross will be God's only acceptable way to reach people. All of this nonsense came up because I am appalled at your use of derogatory terms for human beings that either fell upon hard times or play the system. Even those who play the system need educating how wrong it is to do so if they are able bodied. Godly influence in their life can convict a soul into themselves wanting to do better.

Now you are adding the rule to the tithe paying, which is just another OT law you and many others dug up so you can have a steady paycheck. Pitiful!

Go ahead and preach to your 20 percent and call other people derogatory names, like you have already done in this thread. Your posts indicate that you lack love for your fellow man. You talk about discipleship...but what does Christ say about true discipleship?

By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

(John 13:35)

Good luck with your gimmicks because you are going to need them.
I think I understand your misconceptions. That's because you have taken nearly everything I said out of context. That shows how weak your argument is.

The trailer park trash webcam prophet comment was referring to people who think it's their God given right to point out the weaknesses in other people on the internet when there is no scriptural authority. I gave specific examples. You twisted it around to suggest I was talking about the saints on the pew. I let that slide for a while.

I said the 80/20 rule was evident in some fashion in the examples I listed. I don't have to be aware of the law of gravity to know gravity exists. You seem to believe that the people involved in the examples I listed had the 80/20 rule in mind. I doubt they did, but it is obvious the principle played out successfully. It is without question, the 80/20 rule was used, even if people were unaware it was happening.

Do you know the difference between discipleship and evangelism? Two different things. Evangelism is when you get a person converted to your brand of christianity. Discipleship is teaching a person to be like Christ. I don't know how much clearer I can make it.

It appears you are deliberately twisting words and definitions. An obvious manipulation is when I said tithing is an example how the percentage stays the same, but the actual number changes. You blasted an inaccurate statement stating I was using tithing principle to collect a paycheck. A deliberate, inaccurate misrepresentation of my point. Anyone reading what I wrote would not come up to that conclusion.

If I appear condescending, it's because I gave you the benefit of the doubt. It appears your perception of what's said is different than what is said. Your problem is in your perception.

I never said the 80/20 rule was an outreach tool. I did say you teach the 20% who want to be effective in discipleship to teach the 80%. Part of discipleship is evangelism.

I never said the pastor should ignore the 80%. You pulled a quote off Wikipedia to accuse me of ignoring the other 80%.

Making up things then jumping to faulty conclusions on the fabrications shows how weak your argument is.



As far as Memphis is concerned, you do not know who the people in my circle are. If I were sticking my nose in the Memphis mess, I would be over there in that church system digging up dirt to tell. There is a big difference between doing that and posting my opinion, which I do have a right to do.

Why? Because I have a very close loved one who moved to Memphis and is looking for a OP church to visit and maybe regularly attend. It would be unacceptable for my loved one to walk into that "Memphis mess". So yes, it is my concern because I do not want my loved one walking into that type of unstable and unbiblical situation that might shape what my loved one views about oneness pentecostal churches.

People have the right to kill unborn babies, but that doesn't make it morally right. The Bible says gossip is murder.

How is voicing you opinion on AFF going to help your "close loved one" decide which OP church to attend? I doubt your close loved one visit this forum. If they do, they already know how warped OP can be. If your close loved one doesn't check out your comments on AFF it's a moot point. Then all you have to do is suggest other OP churches. If you don't plan to spill the beans to the close loved one, there is no need to continue to encourage the bloodshed with fellow believers.

[tv1a]

A minister told a great story about growing up in a preacher's home. One day around the supper table one of the kids started talking about one of the local preachers who fell into sin. One of the kids asked their father how he felt. The preacher with tears in his eyes stopped supper and begin to pray. He prayed for reconciliation, he prayed for grace, he prayed for mercy for the erring preacher. He also asked God to forgive his kids for participating in hurtful gossip. The father said the situation is being handled appropriately. With that, he got up from the supper table.

The minister said that radically changed his life. We treat the errant preacher like the pharisees treated the woman caught in adultery. We have our rocks ready for launching.

[Sherri]

Don't pretend that you don't have money stashed away.I really hope you wrote that TIC.

[Sister Alvear]

Well...I know Sherri....she would give her last dime to missions...and know the way their church is set up...an example for others...(yeah, I know...some will say, "you say that because she is your friend..." However it is true she is my friend however I have many other friends that I would not say that about their setup.
When pastor´s are not open about money it is scary...not that I want to know everyone´s business however if a member of somewhere I would kinda like to know how things are setup...I think that is just and fair.

I think a true pastor suffers and sacrifices a lot...and he deserves a nice dependable car, a nice home and most people will agree with me...however when I see people that become super rich and things envolve around money..I would just step out and go somewhere else.

I have a nice home that a USA pastor gave me the money to build...I enjoy it what little time I am at home however it is not my GOD...it is something MY GOD gave me through the hands of a precious person...may I always use it and enjoy it for the work of His Kingdom.

[tv1a]

I don't know many OP's familiar with the Moravian Revival. 100 years of non stop prayer. 1 in 5 participants became missionary. No reasonable person would suggest this was an outreach gimmick, but 20 percent answered the call to outreach. Another example how the 80/20 rule played out.

[tv1a]

A minister I mentor had two Mercedes when I met him. It's not a sin for a preacher to drive a Mercedes.

[Sister Alvear]

Yes...oh for a repeat of that revival..

[Barb]

i didnt see the pic as being smug more like dead pan i dont see him driving a beemer as being outrageous they aint that expensive are they?, no different than a caddy. now if it was a mercedes 600 sl or something else in excess of 100/ 120 thou ok, besides you can lease them pretty cheap too.

Driving an expensive car is not outrageous. I certainly would have no objection to our pastor or bishops driving a BMW or any other high cost vehicle...as long as it didn't come to him through deceit and the church bank account.

So the issue is not the car. The issue is the heart of the man.

Now, many would claim that we don't know what is in the heart of a man, but when we speak, our words have a way of revealing the intent of our very being.

Likewise, pictures really do speak a thousand words, and in that photo I saw a man with a cocky attitude... I'm not talking behind his back. If I had an opportunity to tell TB this, I would.

Several years ago, a pastor in the city in which I live was found in sin...not UPCI, but another large Apostolic organization. This man was repentant, submitted to the counsel of the elders, and allowed himself to be set down for a year or more while someone else was overseeing the church. After that time the org restored him to pastor that church.

I don't see that humility in TB's actions or words.

With certainty I can say that if it were me, I would stay as far away from social media as I could. To me, this and all the rest does not reflect a man who sinned and is ready to make things right with God and man.

Yes, he looks cocky to me...

As with the incident I mentioned above, I can respect someone who says, "Yes, I am the man...I did it and I was wrong."

When when we put ourselves up as the victim, we are not sorry...only sorry we got caught.

I pray someone has the love for his soul to tell him directly that his actions do not speak of a heart of contrition.

[AreYouReady?]

I'm not offended by your statement. My style doesn't work well with religious people. It is easier for me to teach Biblical principles to hungry new people than to teach christians entrenched in a religious system. Ironically, most of my time is training and teaching new people. My mentoring style is successful.

Well good...but you still did not answer my question of whether you are a pastor or not. And it would be helpful, since you accuse me of taking your words out of context, to define what you believe. This is an Apostolic board and apostolic definitions range from the boards admin's definition all the way to the Catholic definition. (Catholics define themselves as apostolics in case folks do not know. )

Since you like to go by scientific rules, How do you measure your success? By what standard or rule?

Is your success visible? How does the reader know that you aren’t just blowing wind when you say your methods are successful?

For the record, I am not entrenched in any religious system.


A better term is influencing people to live a particular lifestyle.

Well now, why didn’t you just say so in the beginning? :)



Jesus had the same problem. He pointed that out a few times. Evangelism takes on different forms. I'm not sure how you would define evangelism. Evangelism could be as simple as sharing your testimony with someone. Evangelism could be an organized outreach to the community. Some people evangelize on the street corner thumping a Bible.

Outreach is important. It is the pastor's responsibility to teach the importance of evangelism. Outreach is what keeps the church from growing stale.

I agree. However, any more comment on this would require a better understanding as to how you classify yourself... a pastor? an evangelist? An anointed saint?


My experiences in legalism is most seasoned chrsitians are happy to sit on the pew, give a few bucks in the offering, maybe show up on church workday or help with a fundraiser and that's about it. The sad part is the people who want to help can't because they don't make the grade.

Heh. Who gives the 'grades"? Most ‘seasoned’ christians sit on the pew have been taught by their leadership to do that. I have seen over and over new born babes in Christ wanting to do something for Him, but the leadership in the church takes it upon themselves to thwart them saying that they don’t ‘make the grade’.

Who makes those decisions? Who quenches their spirit? People like YOU do by your words....don't make the grade and trash. :nod


I understand you are looking at this through a oneness apostolic pentecostal prism. You are correct. OP's have a poor track record overall in personal evangelism. I know of churches outside the OP movement who realize the need to grow molecularly. OP's usually split because of disagreements. Some of the successful ministries I've been involved with or observed have established multiple churches in various locations. Once those churches are established, they run independent of the mother church. Non OP's aren't afraid of growing, splitting, creating new life. I don't know how to correct it in the OP movement. I gave up trying. If I can be encouraging, you don't need the masses to turn the world upside down. Jesus started with twelve.

But...today’s world is not turned upside down. If it were, there would be more Christ-like influence in society than there is now. Instead, what they see and what they read in the papers is about spiritual abuse, child molestation, adultery, lavish lifestyles etc. And it's not just in the OP movement. It's all over Christendom.

Today's system is just as messed up from the pew as it is from the pulpit. Many saints abdicate their responsibilities. For example, who do the saints call when someone is sick? The pastor. Who are they supposed to call? James said call the elders. How many board members do you know will go pray for the sick? Why do many elders avoid that responsibility? The Bible guarantees when the elder prays for the sick, the person will recover AND their sins will be forgiven. If you can trust an elder/board member to pray for the sick and get results, you got a board member who is in tuned to the heartbeat of God. Those are the kind of board members I love to work with.

It is messed up from the pew...I agree. Why? From an OP observation, it is because the leadership teaches them to call the pastor instead of the elders. Right? The pastor of any given church I’ve observed appoints the board members. Do some deliberately sabotage themselves by appointing ‘yes’ men to the board? A church is no better than it’s leadership. A home is no better than it’s leadership. You have a Holy Ghost filled husband and father, who loves the Lord, does his best to live by the Word and you have a happy home. Ditto with the wife. It takes everybody involved in the ‘cell’ (for lack of a better word) for the body to grow around it.

In one post, you take an issue with spending time to train people to do the work of the ministry, then you take issue that pastors don't want to delegate.

No, you do not seem to understand what issue I am taking with you despite how many times I have posted it here.

The issue I took before you started developing your 80/20 rule mindset on this thread, is that you use derogatory names for poor people, make off the wall statements like the disciples were a clique as if it is ok to separate people into different classes of human beings in your church. If that is inaccurate perception, then you did a poor job of trying to explain exactly what you mean.

The issue I take is that sometimes a pastor cannot or will not see past the few people he decides to surround himself with and ends up using favoritism instead of spiritual discernment when teaching a local assembly. Jesus did not spend all His time around 12 men. He taught, fed and ministered to the thousands. And nowhere in the bible will you find Jesus stooping to derogatory name calling.. to even the Pharisees and Saducees in his interaction with them. He used strong words, but never derogatory words.

So even if you hate people posting their opinions about somebody else's wrongdoings on the internet, calling them trailer park webcam prophets is unbecoming to you. If you think it is wrong to discuss current events in our churches, then you just don't do it. It is strange that people will read newspapers that report wrongdoings all over this nation and the world, but when it comes to a public place of worship, reporting wrongdoing becomes gossip?

And let me tell you, the OP pastors in this area are the biggest gossips around. Some of them sit around at their Sunday dinner table talking about the saints in their church...repeating things told to them in confidence.



I think I understand your misconceptions. That's because you have taken nearly everything I said out of context. That shows how weak your argument is.

Perhaps you ought to explain your position better if you do not want your postings to be taken out of context. It’s not about my having a weak argument. That is just a strawman statement you hide behind. This is a forum, not a round table discussion where people can look at faces and interact with just a spoken word.

The trailer park trash webcam prophet comment was referring to people who think it's their God given right to point out the weaknesses in other people on the internet when there is no scriptural authority. I gave specific examples. You twisted it around to suggest I was talking about the saints on the pew. I let that slide for a while.

I do not recall reading where you explained what a trailer park trash webcam prophet is...except for maybe in your mind. Regardless, it is disrespectful to label anybody as trash, internet or otherwise. You are on here..so what if that includes you?

Regarding your belief that I twisted it to mean the saints on the pew...yes, I did think you to mean that, but it was not a deliberate twist as you accuse me of. There are a lot of things that have no scriptural authority that happens in the organized church system. I could give you a list of those things, but you wouldn't agree with me.


Do you know the difference between discipleship and evangelism? Two different things. Evangelism is when you get a person converted to your brand of christianity. Discipleship is teaching a person to be like Christ. I don't know how much clearer I can make it.

Yes, I understand the difference between the two. Sadly, I do not see discipleship in OP churches. What I have been trying to say is that in most of the OP churches I have attended, the pastorate surrounds himself with a few people and then those few people think that they have become the elite in the church system and do not disciple others. But you blather on about that ignorant 80/20 rule and how it is ok and correct to go by those rules. You are the one who took this conversation there without fully explaining yourself, then get angry when someone misunderstands you.

It appears you are deliberately twisting words and definitions. An obvious manipulation is when I said tithing is an example how the percentage stays the same, but the actual number changes. You blasted an inaccurate statement stating I was using tithing principle to collect a paycheck. A deliberate, inaccurate misrepresentation of my point. Anyone reading what I wrote would not come up to that conclusion.

Oh yeah? Well apparently somebody else did come to that conclusion or are you going to discount and trash them too?

Are you touchy about tithing? Do you preach and take tithes? If not, then why would you even use tithing as an example to your 80/20 rule?

If I appear condescending, it's because I gave you the benefit of the doubt. It appears your perception of what's said is different than what is said. Your problem is in your perception.

And YOUR problem is that you do not explain yourself adequately.

I never said the 80/20 rule was an outreach tool. I did say you teach the 20% who want to be effective in discipleship to teach the 80%. Part of discipleship is evangelism.

And you said that you don't bother with some people because they 'don't make the grade'. YOU limit the people to 20 %. A good teacher/pastor will invite whosoever that wants to participate in an effective discipleship program to learn and develop spiritual knowledge.

I would think that if only 20% shows up for that teaching, then it just happens to turn out that way. However, YOU made it read that you pick the 20% like Jesus picked the 12 disciples, then turned around and backtracked.

YOU sir... are no Jesus in that you have that much spiritual discernment to decide who makes the grade and who does not. (Your own words)

[AreYouReady?]

I never said the pastor should ignore the 80%. You pulled a quote off Wikipedia to accuse me of ignoring the other 80%.

Making up things then jumping to faulty conclusions on the fabrications shows how weak your argument is.

You brought that upon yourself by even comparing a so-called scientific study to the spiritual.

Instead of communicating your thoughts in the beginning about how to minister to people using that Pareto principle, you leave it wide open for speculation, then accuse me of deliberately coming to a faulty conclusion. How's that for sabotage on your part? Try explaining your thoughts accurately so that there is no misunderstanding. Try asking...are you misunderstanding what I am saying instead of accusing me of 'deliberately twisting' something you haven't made clear to begin with.

Are you a pastor?

Do you preach and take a tithe?

Do you espouse Oneness doctrine?

Do the people you disciple go out and take to themselves people to teach?

All these questions are relevant to how I answer. Perhaps I just assumed you to be all of the above?

For the record, this wasn't a wikipedia article. You have not read the article at all did you? And if you are going to use someone else's principle or a rule to explain something, don't you think the burden of how someone perceives your thought process should come from you? A little clip of info here or there, leaving out your true intentions of what you are thinking is not the way to communicate.


People have the right to kill unborn babies, but that doesn't make it morally right. The Bible says gossip is murder.

How is voicing you opinion on AFF going to help your "close loved one" decide which OP church to attend? I doubt your close loved one visit this forum. If they do, they already know how warped OP can be. If your close loved one doesn't check out your comments on AFF it's a moot point. Then all you have to do is suggest other OP churches. If you don't plan to spill the beans to the close loved one, there is no need to continue to encourage the bloodshed with fellow believers.

If the person who started this thread had not done so, we wouldn't know the terrible conflict going on at TPC now, would we? We wouldn't know that the people are being run over roughshod by the leadership in that church by not discussing what happened with the members. Do you think that it is ok for that to happen? Are you suggesting that it is to be swept under the rug? There is no "bloodshed" going on with fellow believers here. From all that I read, the facts are coming out on what happened there. Since when does facts about a situation become gossip? Sometimes public opinion keeps a minister on the straight and narrow. And no...scripturally... correction does not come from the top down. The leadership turned that one around. Scripturally, the leadership is to let the least esteemed of the church to judge. In fact, when Acts is thoroughly read, you will find that the Apostles counted themselves among the brethren.

We all seen what happened to one sister in Georgia when she let the leadership handle her situation. She is the true victim in that case. TB is not a victim in this case. Eight hundred members of that church are the victims.

More harm to a local assembly comes when their 'leadership' is not forthcoming and truthful to them. More harm is coming to them because the 'leadership' has not been spiritually and financially truthful to them. That deception is ripping them to shreds more than this forum discussion is harming them.

[deacon blues]

My Gosh tv1a and Are You Ready---could you debate via PM???? You fill up all the space!!!

[AreYouReady?]

My Gosh tv1a and Are You Ready---could you debate via PM???? You fill up all the space!!!

Ha ha ha! Deacon, I would not have a PM conversation or debate with tv1a.

He can quit with the derogatory terms and accusations and I won't respond to him anymore.

[houston]

Gotcha! :happydanceI really hope you wrote that TIC.

[Sherri]

Gotcha! :happydance
:nahnah

[Fiyahstarter]

My Gosh tv1a and Are You Ready---could you debate via PM???? You fill up all the space!!!

Deacon, Hush...:smack.

Are You Ready,

Don't you dare PM this stuff... :preach It needs to be HEARD...by the multitudes!!

[exTPCMusician]

God has a way of taking our mess and turning it into a message. A very eloquent brother made a valid point to me. The cross looked like defeat. However, it was a vehicle to usher in Pentecost. God declared literally in Genesis, and prophetically towards the church: "let there be light".

The church still belongs to the Lord. There will be purging, healing....and Memphis will have revival! Revival will happen because the people of God (self included) are embarking on a fresh vision that includes fasting, prayer, healing, repentance. I believe a revival will blow up through TPC AND other Apostolic truth believing churches. Not a 10,000 member mega church with vanity and egos and the room for satan to play the race, economic, and other divisive cards. No. How about 20 churches planted with 500 members across the city? What a vision a brother recently shared!

Revival. Let it begin in me. Now that information is before me, the hurt is there, and I don't have answers to "why", one thing is certain. Yet will I trust him!

Memphis...the devil tried it again. Pray for those that fell, for families that left. Let's continue to heal, and lets have revival!!!

TB is not God. Let's move on....

[canam]

what about the post that said this had been a problem in the past in memphis (adultery) did they mean in leadership or saints ? saints i could understand the numbers are against you, but leadership, pastoral or otherwise ?

[tv1a]

You say in one post you shouldn't have to go into detail. But twist what I say, even when I clearly explained the terminoloigy. If you honestly believe everyone speaks on God's behalf, we'll hook you up with Transparant, or Bill Price. God hasn't called everyone to nit-pick about problems that don't affect you. If you are so concerned about OP image, try putting out fires instead of puring gas on the flame.

A few blatent misconceptions I will clear up again,
1. People who are in the 20% of an organization are not randomly chosen. The 20% sets themselves apart to where they get into the inner circle. That's in any organization. It's not the systems fault OP's don't empower the saints. OP's may get better results if they spent more time being like Jesus and less time trying to convince people their perceptions og Christ.

2. Jesus focused more on the 70 than the 5000. Jesus spent more time with 12 than 70. Jesus spent more time with the big three, Peter, James, and John. Can't argue with the results. They did better their first sermon than Jesus did on his first sermon. Teacher taught students well.
*************
I've done a of research, college papers, reports, speeches about 80/20 rule. I have books which deal with the 80/20 principle. So it's more than cutting and pasting something googled off the internet.

Jesus wasn't a pacifist. He told someone whoi made excuses not to be in the inner circle to let the dead bury the dead. He called a woman a dog. Christ tole the pharisees the devil was their daddy. He had little tolerance for religiosity. The same Christ was loving and compassionate for the underdog. That's why he taught His disciples who in turn taught others.

Ha ha ha! Deacon, I would not have a PM conversation or debate with tv1a.

He can quit with the derogatory terms and accusations and I won't respond to him anymore.

[tv1a]

No need to pm because the op gossip train will eventually publicize the comments.

Deacon, Hush...:smack.

Are You Ready,

Don't you dare PM this stuff... :preach It needs to be HEARD...by the multitudes!!

[tv1a]

How did a purple smiley appear on one of my posts? I don't do smileys.

[Praxeas]

How did a purple smiley appear on one of my posts? I don't do smileys.
You remember the mood ring? Well this is a mood forum...you're feeling purple

[Sherri]

what about the post that said this had been a problem in the past in memphis (adultery) did they mean in leadership or saints ? saints i could understand the numbers are against you, but leadership, pastoral or otherwise ?Pastors in Memphis, more than once through the years, sadly.

[MissBrattified]

You remember the mood ring? Well this is a mood forum...you're feeling purple

:heeheehee

:toofunny

[tv1a]

Purple represents royalty. I have to show the webcam prophets who is boss. Lol

You remember the mood ring? Well this is a mood forum...you're feeling purple

[Cindy]

You remember the mood ring? Well this is a mood forum...you're feeling purple

You need to quit that. http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f383/ladyCntexas/Laugh/ha-ha-good-one-dog-ag1.gif

[tv1a]

Are You Ready points out serious flaws in the OP discipleship. I suggested they are more concerned about knowing who Jesus is than knowing Jesus. I found an interesting link about the dangers of fundamentalism. It's not a OP hit piece.
http://www.churchleaders.com/mobile/pastors/pastor-articles/163749-the-dangers-of-fundamentalism-in-leadership.html?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=clnewsletter&utm_content=CL+Daily+20121108

[canam]

Pastors in Memphis, more than once through the years, sadly.

wow i think they better burn the church and start over somewhere else, thats a curse or something ?

[Monterrey]

Listen, there have been pastors of every flavor commit adultery, it is caused by sin! Whether your name is Black, Baker or Swaggart!

[canam]

Listen, there have been pastors of every flavor commit adultery, it is caused by sin! Whether your name is Black, Baker or Swaggart!

not multiples from the same church though !

[rgcraig]

TV1 and Are You Ready......you two are like two people in the corner of a busy room just holding your own conversation.

[AreYouReady?]

Sorry Renda. Tv1a sort of sucked me into his insanity. :heeheehee

[AreYouReady?]

Are You Ready points out serious flaws in the OP discipleship. I suggested they are more concerned about knowing who Jesus is than knowing Jesus. I found an interesting link about the dangers of fundamentalism. It's not a OP hit piece.
http://www.churchleaders.com/mobile/pastors/pastor-articles/163749-the-dangers-of-fundamentalism-in-leadership.html?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=clnewsletter&utm_content=CL+Daily+20121108

While I do not totally disagree, I do not totally agree either. You took the conversation over to that ignorant 80/20 rule. My issue with you ...ONCE AGAIN...is your disrespect and division of the people.

[AreYouReady?]

You say in one post you shouldn't have to go into detail. But twist what I say, even when I clearly explained the terminoloigy. If you honestly believe everyone speaks on God's behalf, we'll hook you up with Transparant, or Bill Price. God hasn't called everyone to nit-pick about problems that don't affect you. If you are so concerned about OP image, try putting out fires instead of puring gas on the flame.


One thing that you have not done, despite repeated asking, is to explain what you believe. I asked you several times are you a pastor? An Evangelist? An Anointed saint? What are you? Who says you have the authority that you are taking onto yourself? Who gave to you that authority?

You are not going to find anywhere in this thread where I spread any gossip. I pointed out my own observations and opinions solely about what is already written here. Do you envision yourself as a peacemaker? :nah
You have the option of leaving this topic without comment. However, since you are still here...you are part of what you say the problem is.

A few blatent misconceptions I will clear up again,
1. People who are in the 20% of an organization are not randomly chosen. The 20% sets themselves apart to where they get into the inner circle. That's in any organization. It's not the systems fault OP's don't empower the saints. OP's may get better results if they spent more time being like Jesus and less time trying to convince people their perceptions og Christ.

This is a true statement only to some extent. However, you are using a concept that limits people to 20 % of whatever given number, and you are using scriptures that you think explains your concept of a few teaching the many. You are looking at this from your own inner circle perspective. That is cultish behavior.

But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

(I John 2:27)

Don't bother to reiterate your version of this scripture. I think it is quite plain and I believe it.

2. Jesus focused more on the 70 than the 5000. Jesus spent more time with 12 than 70. Jesus spent more time with the big three, Peter, James, and John. Can't argue with the results. They did better their first sermon than Jesus did on his first sermon. Teacher taught students well.

And who gave them that first sermon? It did not come from within themselves. The Holy Ghost gave them the words to speak that revelation that they taught on that day of Pentecost.

Jesus had the ability to peer into the disciples hearts and thoughts. He saw the potential of these men to carry on His gospel long after he was crucified, died, buried, rose again and ascended up to Heaven. Yet, Peter, James and John all failed Christ in His hour of need. Christ had to correct them many times during their learning period.

The Holy Ghost wasn't given until about 10 days after He ascended on high. Even the disciples did not have the Holy Ghost until then. They received it among with the initial 120. Jesus gave Peter the commandment to feed his sheep. Jesus also knew that the Holy Ghost was going to give Peter the anointing to preach what he did on that day. Yes, the disciples were hand picked by Jesus...but again...there is no man today that has the discernment that Jesus had, at least not on his own. There is no man today that can decide what another man may or may not do for the Kingdom of God. The Holy Ghost decides who are the overseers. Acts 20:28 and they receive that authority and power from the Holy Ghost....not by some ordination process after seminary school. If it wasn't for the Holy Spirit teaching, then those out of seminary school would have the same status as an elementary school teacher. It is the Holy Ghost that teaches us, comforts us and guides us into all things.

Did Paul spend time in discipleship with Christ? No. God stopped him on the road to Damascus and told Paul what to do. God then told Ananias what to do for Paul. The Holy Ghost taught Paul the gospel to the gentiles. Paul had to correct Peter in some of Peter's actions. So that goes to show you that your 80/20 rules is scripturally not accurate.

Gee....I wonder how the Ethiopian Eunuch even made it without the 80/20 rule? :rolleyes2 Who taught him after Philip baptized him and he went on his way rejoicing in the Spirit?

It is simple. The Holy Ghost taught him.


Now let's take a look at Simon in Acts 8:9-24.

He bewitched the people of Samaria giving out that himself was some great one. To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying this man is the great power of God.
But then the people believed Philip preaching the things concerning the Kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, and they were baptized, both men and women.

Short version: Simon believed and was baptized, but he did not receive the Holy Ghost. Simon foolishly offered money to the Apostles to give him that power of laying on of the hands. Peter rebuked him sharply.

Simon the sorcerer was not being taught by the Holy Ghost.
*************

[Esther]

You remember the mood ring? Well this is a mood forum...you're feeling purple

:highfive

[Sherri]

not multiples from the same church though !
Not all from the same church - just different Pentecostal ones in the city through the years. Very sad.

[CC1]

Not all from the same church - just different Pentecostal ones in the city through the years. Very sad.

Yup. Only #2 from that church that I am aware of. Of course that is two too many.

[AreYouReady?]

I've done a of research, college papers, reports, speeches about 80/20 rule. I have books which deal with the 80/20 principle. So it's more than cutting and pasting something googled off the internet.

First of all, I don't give a rip about your ignorant 80/20 rule reports, speeches, research and college papers. All that teaching just wisdom of words that all about amounts to cut and paste google articles anyway.

Who are YOU when you infer that a saint filled with the Holy Spirit may not 'make the grade' from your 80/20 rule? Are you inferring that those people must come up to you or any teacher to be fit to learn and teach others?

Jesus thanked the Father that He's hid from the wise and prudent of this world and revealed it to the babes in Christ.


I Corinthians
17For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

Jesus wasn't a pacifist. He told someone whoi made excuses not to be in the inner circle to let the dead bury the dead.



This someone who asked the Lord to suffer first to go and bury his father. Jesus said, “Follow me and the dead bury their dead.
Christ said nothing about this man coming into any “inner circle”. And the bible doesn’t say whether he stayed and buried his father or that he followed Christ. The bible only says what Christ told him and not how this man responded....and it was one of his disciples that asked it! (Matthew 8:21,22) So how can you imply this man never made it into what you call “the inner circle” because of his excuses?

But here in Luke 9:59, 60
59 And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

I see nowhere nowhere anything about being in an ‘inner circle’. Jesus told him to let the dead bury their dead, but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

Again...there is no indication that this man did not comply to Christ’s command. The bible simply does not say.

He called a woman a dog.

Christ did not directly call this woman a dog in a derogatory manner. She was outside of the covenant of Israel, of which people Christ was sent to first. She responded that even dogs desire the crumbs. Let’s put this in the context that the scriptures wrote.


Mark 7:26-29
The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation; and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter.
27 But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs.
28 And she answered and said unto him, Yes, Lord: yet the dogs under the table eat of the children's crumbs.
29 And he said unto her, For this saying go thy way; the devil is gone out of thy daughter.


Christ tole the pharisees the devil was their daddy. He had little tolerance for religiosity.

HEH. This is not even in the same class as calling people trailor park trash webcam profits. Jesus perceived what they really are...who their father was. Jesus did not play with words. Yet, he never got personal with flippant derogatory terms.

The same Christ was loving and compassionate for the underdog. That's why he taught His disciples who in turn taught others.

Not quite. Christ desired even the scribes and pharisees to be saved. But their pride and arrogance of their “knowledge” and “power” kept them from seeing the truth of who Christ is.

Going back to Christ’s statement:

Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Not that the Father has revealed to a choice “inner circle” of people these things.


The same Christ was loving and compassionate for the underdog. That's why he taught His disciples who in turn taught others.

While I agree that Christ is loving and compassionate for the underdog, it is not WHY he taught his disciples. He may have taught the disciples many things to be merciful to people who are not of high status, but that was not the sole reason.

[AreYouReady?]

I forgot to add my last sentence in this paragraph, in red at the bottom.



Now let's take a look at Simon in Acts 8:9-24.

He bewitched the people of Samaria giving out that himself was some great one. To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying this man is the great power of God.
But then the people believed Philip preaching the things concerning the Kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, and they were baptized, both men and women.

Short version: Simon believed and was baptized, but he did not receive the Holy Ghost. Simon foolishly offered money to the Apostles to give him that power of laying on of the hands. Peter rebuked him sharply.

Simon the sorcerer was not being taught by the Holy Ghost.

Simple lesson: We should not always follow a man who, from the least to the greatest regards that man as having the power of God. He could be as Simon the sorcerer.

[tv1a]

Are You Ready, Bible scholars tie 1 John 2:24 into 1 John 2:27. The progression starts with John reminding the church what he taught. The passage deals with fighting the Spirit of the antichrist.

Before Paul went into the wilderness for revelation, he was mentored by Barnabas. Paul spent time with the apostles after his conversion. Paul showed the desire and commitment to spread the gospel.

[tv1a]

Do you honestly believe the thousands who followed Jesus got the same attention as the disciples? When Jesus made the offer to follow Him, he was giving the opportunity to be on the ground floor of something special. Jesus took his disciples away from the crowd on countless occasions to teach them things that were not taught to the masses. According to AYR, Jesus should have taught those things to the 80% who were hanging out for the bread and fish. Jesus knew the players from the pretenders. He lost a crowd of thousands when he said his followes would eat his flesh and drink his blood. Jesus was left with a dozen guys after that declaration.

[Tlswift2009]

God has a way of taking our mess and turning it into a message. A very eloquent brother made a valid point to me. The cross looked like defeat. However, it was a vehicle to usher in Pentecost. God declared literally in Genesis, and prophetically towards the church: "let there be light".

The church still belongs to the Lord. There will be purging, healing....and Memphis will have revival! Revival will happen because the people of God (self included) are embarking on a fresh vision that includes fasting, prayer, healing, repentance. I believe a revival will blow up through TPC AND other Apostolic truth believing churches. Not a 10,000 member mega church with vanity and egos and the room for satan to play the race, economic, and other divisive cards. No. How about 20 churches planted with 500 members across the city? What a vision a brother recently shared!

Revival. Let it begin in me. Now that information is before me, the hurt is there, and I don't have answers to "why", one thing is certain. Yet will I trust him!

Memphis...the devil tried it again. Pray for those that fell, for families that left. Let's continue to heal, and lets have revival!!!

TB is not God. Let's move on....
Now this commentary is one FILLED with faith VICTORIES!!!!

[Tlswift2009]

you remember the mood ring? Well this is a mood forum...you're feeling purple
lol-thanks, i needed that!!!

[Tlswift2009]

pastors in memphis, more than once through the years, sadly.
very sad, and hurtful to marriages and many others: In and without the body of christ-the world is taking notes, and many looking for excuses not to believe/serve god, and many looking/searching for the real deal!!! Let's be that shinning light that is on**top**of the hill that can be seen, and not under some bushel dimmed, and doing the wrong things!!!

[Tlswift2009]

you need to quit that. http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f383/ladycntexas/laugh/ha-ha-good-one-dog-ag1.gif
naw-i need some healing humor for my spirit right about now. The mood ring era was a fun, peaceful time...

[Tlswift2009]

listen, there have been pastors of every flavor commit adultery, it is caused by sin! Whether your name is black, baker or swaggart!
correct!!! Sin has no respect of ethnicity-social settings-socio economic status-etc. If we review ancient biblical characters, political authorities, and any/every walk of life: The spirit of sin has found the weakness inour human nature, and has brought countless of saved, and unsaved folk down to defeat. We must set our affections on jesus, and leave them there...

[AreYouReady?]

Are You Ready, Bible scholars tie 1 John 2:24 into 1 John 2:27. The progression starts with John reminding the church what he taught. The passage deals with fighting the Spirit of the antichrist.

Before Paul went into the wilderness for revelation, he was mentored by Barnabas. Paul spent time with the apostles after his conversion. Paul showed the desire and commitment to spread the gospel.

I cannot even begin to tell you how many people learned from the Holy Ghost the things in the bible that are never taught on the church pew.

Apparently, you do not teach your 20% a whole lot.

By the way, in case I did not ask this before...just to get a better understanding of what you believe, are you a pastor, an evangelist or an anointed saint?

[AreYouReady?]

Do you honestly believe the thousands who followed Jesus got the same attention as the disciples? When Jesus made the offer to follow Him, he was giving the opportunity to be on the ground floor of something special. Jesus took his disciples away from the crowd on countless occasions to teach them things that were not taught to the masses. According to AYR, Jesus should have taught those things to the 80% who were hanging out for the bread and fish. Jesus knew the players from the pretenders. He lost a crowd of thousands when he said his followes would eat his flesh and drink his blood. Jesus was left with a dozen guys after that declaration.

Ok. I gotcha. That proves it. :dogpat

[CC1]

I see on the TPC website that a Ron Brown has preached the last three services. Can somebody who knows tell us who he is?

[revdtzombik]

Rev. Brown is the UPCI TN District Superintendent

[CC1]

Rev. Brown is the UPCI TN District Superintendent

Ah! That would explain things.

[H Gang]

Any news from members of the Memphis church (what's the name?) about the progress on a new pastor? Entertaining any guest speakers soon? A church in our district had a similar situation years ago and they had a new pastor within 2-3 months. I also heard the church was being sued from the former ministers for severance pay?

[tv1a]

Love the tude dude lol
Ok. I gotcha. That proves it. :dogpat

[Timmy]

When will this reach 100,000 views? My guess: Nov 12.

100,022 views today, Nov 12! :happydance

[Timmy]

100,022 views today, Nov 12! :happydance

It took only 41 days. At this rate, in about a year it'll hit a million. ;)

[Monterrey]

Wow Timmy, you got any good lotto number handy?

[Timmy]

Wow Timmy, you got any good lotto number handy?

No, but this reminds me of when we were watching the "Pick 3" drawing live on TV one time, years ago. Before it started, I blurted out three numbers. Then they picked the first one. A hit! The boys sat up and took notice. The second: a hit! They were on the edge of their chairs. The last one: A HIT! "Dad! Go! You gotta play the lottery!!"

Of course, that never happened again. :lol

[rgcraig]

100,022 views today, Nov 12! :happydance

Cool!

[Jermyn Davidson]

Just wondering, but does the attached picture look like the face of a repentant man to you? Cause it sure doesn't to me. This is the profile picture he posted on FB October 24th. Kind of like he is mocking us all laid back in his nice expensive car, paid for with church funds(a new car every 3 yrs). I would have posted it before now, but he keeps getting on FB, updating his picture, and then deactivating his account, this has happened at least 3 times in the last month.

I previously have stated on this forum that he was a repentant man, and was given this information by a source very close to the situation. While he may have tried to seem repentant to them so he might possibly keep some of his public image intact, I do not believe his actions show that he is repentant. He has left TPC with VERY LITTLE money, and a mound of debt accrued by building a daycare on a property that we aren't even "supposed" to be staying at. Properties with taxes unpaid for 5-7 yrs, yet roughly 3 million in annual income for the church?? No new building, virtually non existent building fund, a partially complete 1.3 million dollar daycare(not sure why, because it isn't THAT nice) and very little left in the general fund. YET, he wants the church to pay him a severance package in excess of $250,000?!?! Doesn't seem like he is all too repentant to me.

I withdrawal my previous posts.

If this is really true, I find it so deeply disturbing.

This guy is posted this pic on his fb account-- knowing his former congregants would see?

Does this man of God have someone wiser than him speaking into his life?
His picture angers me, but this man is in serious need of prayer-- and while I am typing this it is very difficult to see myself praying for him because it doesn't look like he cares about the affects of his actions.

He wants severance pay?

Is all of this really true?

I feel a sense of brokeness now for this former Pastor.

Really guys, is all of this really, really true?
Oh Lord, please have mercy on former Pastor Terry Black.
Oh God, touch him right now. Shake him to his core! Father n the Name of Jesus, if the things I have read tonight are true of Terry Black shake him, shake his world, shake him to his core! Father, give him someone to confide in, someone who will share Your wisdom with him and let him hear You and follow Your Will in this terrible situation. Father, oh God, please have mercy on Terry Black. Forgive him God and help him! Chase him and don't let satan have him. Don't let this be the way Terry Black's life story ends. In Jesus Name. Amen.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Where are the tears on this thread for this man of God?

What are you guys doing?

What are you guys doing?

What is wrong with you?

OH God! Have mercy on me! When I fall, oh God, please help me. Please, don't leave me! Father, I need You every day. I need Your Grace and Mercy and Help everyday. Have mercy on me and have mercy on Terry Black! Lead us back to your arms and help him and help me!

I understand and I don't understand how there would not be more people expressing a brokeness and a commitment to mourn and pray over this.

This is terrible!

I hope that whoever takes the time to read this thread, will take the time to weep over, and pray over this man of God!

Who will weep for the fallen?
Who will bow down low in prayers and tears for this fallen man of God?

Have you all forgotten the hole that our Father lifted you from?

Will you weep for Terry Black's soul?
I hope you don't refuse.
I really hope you don't refuse.

[CC1]

Where are the tears on this thread for this man of God?

What are you guys doing?

What are you guys doing?

What is wrong with you?

OH God! Have mercy on me! When I fall, oh God, please help me. Please, don't leave me! Father, I need You every day. I need Your Grace and Mercy and Help everyday. Have mercy on me and have mercy on Terry Black! Lead us back to your arms and help him and help me!

I understand and I don't understand how there would not be more people expressing a brokeness and a commitment to mourn and pray over this.

This is terrible!

I hope that whoever takes the time to read this thread, will take the time to weep over, and pray over this man of God!

Who will weep for the fallen?
Who will bow down low in prayers and tears for this fallen man of God?

Have you all forgotten the hole that our Father lifted you from?

Will you weep for Terry Black's soul?
I hope you don't refuse.
I really hope you don't refuse.

Very dramatic! If you were a girl I would call you a drama queen.

It is absurd to act like there has not been concern for everybody involved expressed on this thread. However to this point I have heard no report of any admission of guilt or remorse from the pastor involved so my sympathy for him is limited at this point.

[houston]

Very dramatic! If you were a girl I would call you a drama queen.

It is absurd to act like there has not been concern for everybody involved expressed on this thread. However to this point I have heard no report of any admission of guilt or remorse from the pastor involved so my sympathy for him is limited at this point.

You're just so mean!!! Shed some tears!!! :bigbaby

[tv1a]

I'll let the people decide if they learned more about Christ within the past few years than they did sitting on the pew like totem poles for 50 years.

The best way to describe what I do is servant mentoring. I'm on staff at the church I attend. My family has been given a special gift by God to mentor people. There are business owners, preachers, widows, parents with disabled kids, people from other churches who we mentor on various levels.

We say what we do and do what we say.

I cannot even begin to tell you how many people learned from the Holy Ghost the things in the bible that are never taught on the church pew.

Apparently, you do not teach your 20% a whole lot.

By the way, in case I did not ask this before...just to get a better understanding of what you believe, are you a pastor, an evangelist or an anointed saint?

[tv1a]

Spiritual Awakening and How to Move Out of The Judgment Game
Depending where you are in your spiritual awakening how you play spiritual awakening and the judgment game will differ from others. The judgment game usually becomes a very big player when you start waking up spiritually. This is not a good thing or a bad thing, it simply is ‘what is’ and becoming aware of the patterns that having been and are playing outside awareness can benefit you, not in taking any action but through simply noticing and the conscious awareness of what patterns are running.

Like I posted on facebook, “If you were aware you were holding your head under water, wouldn’t you stop? Resistance is futile and we don’t recognize it as resistance until it comes into our awareness.”

Spiritual Awakening and The Judgment Game
A lot of people begin their spiritual awakening in a religious setting, some in a spiritual setting and the trigger to this beginning is often suffering or loss of something or someone that was valuable and important to you. Because of the cause (trigger) that leads to spiritual awakening it sets up a polarity of wanting to get away from one thing and get to something else. And the way you know if you got away from what you didn’t want and got to what you did want is always determined by how you feel.

Spiritual awakening usually feels good and since feeling good feels better than feeling bad, not only do you prefer feeling good you judge that as right and correct. And because feeling bad does not feel good you judge and label that as wrong, incorrect and even evil.

Sacred text makes a statement that most people, including those who are waking up, either miss, ignore or it never gets into conscious awareness and it is what perpetuates the judgment game. That statement is ”Judge Not Lest Ye Be judged”. The sacred text goes onto say, however you judge, the same is measured to you. “Measured to you means” you get the same thing back.

Now please be aware the fact that you judge is not right, wrong, good or bad. It just is and there are a couple of underlying factors (patterns) that contribute to you being such a great judger.

Consciousness (human consciousness) is designed to compare and create and when you are not aware of that

you move comparison to judgment and creation to “it can’t be any other way”.
Add on top of that the belief that your emotional responses are outside of you and created by the actions of other and not by your interpretation (i.e. the meaning you make) about the actions, thoughts and deeds of other and
the misunderstanding that everything is separate from you and not connected…
It is no wonder that you are such a big player in the judgment game.

As you begin your spiritual awakening the judgment game creates a lot of “us vs them”‘s. A lot more this is right and that is wrong.

From the position of Oneness and spiritually waking up into Oneness when you judge something as good, bad, right or wrong you are only and always judging yourself. So in plain English…

When you judge all you judge is you, not anything else, just you.
What is often missed because you think you are judging something else or someone else, but you are not, is you are only and always judging you which keeps you away from what you really want and who you really are.

So is judging bad or wrong?
The judgment game gets you thinking you are doing something useful, when what you are doing is setting up resistance and the major block to being, doing and having anything is resistance. Because as one of the forgotten fundamentals of life states, “What you resist, persist and what you embrace you mitigate and dissipate.”

It depends on where you apply it. Judging, which is taking comparision or measurement to the extreme, can be useful when something is static or unchanging such as water running downhill, or how to open or close a door, or judging that a chair is made for sitting, etc.

Where judging is less than useful is where things (people, places and locations) are in motion. Why because judgment attempts to stop movement and make something stationary.

So what do you do instead of judge?
Since judging is a comparison and human consciousness is designed to compare, if we are not supposed to judge because it keeps us from being, doing and having who and what we are, what do we do instead.

How about compare and measure the distance between something ( people, places and things) and what you want vs coming to a final conclusion (i.e. judgment, belief). In other words calibrate instead of judge. Both are comparisons and measurements and yet calibration is an ongoing process where judgment is a one time event.

There are multiple places and aspects of your life where you calibrate instead of judge, so you already have the skill and you just need to apply it in other areas of your life. http://balancedlivingmagazine.com/move-out-of-the-judgment-game.

[IbelongtoJesus]

Where are the tears on this thread for this man of God?

What are you guys doing?

What are you guys doing?

What is wrong with you?

OH God! Have mercy on me! When I fall, oh God, please help me. Please, don't leave me! Father, I need You every day. I need Your Grace and Mercy and Help everyday. Have mercy on me and have mercy on Terry Black! Lead us back to your arms and help him and help me!

I understand and I don't understand how there would not be more people expressing a brokeness and a commitment to mourn and pray over this.

This is terrible!

I hope that whoever takes the time to read this thread, will take the time to weep over, and pray over this man of God!

Who will weep for the fallen?
Who will bow down low in prayers and tears for this fallen man of God?

Have you all forgotten the hole that our Father lifted you from?

Will you weep for Terry Black's soul?
I hope you don't refuse.
I really hope you don't refuse.


Well I'm not sure about on this thread, BUT God knows TPC has wept for the loss of our pastor, and for his soul. Everyone loved him dearly and obviously trusted him with everything within us. He left TPC broken, but we are not in this for a man. Our focus is on The Lord and overcoming the obstacles facing us. This is done by prayer and fasting. Our prayer meetings have been life changing, and Bro. Ron Brown, who was voted in as interim pastor, has been a great source of wisdom and comfort to our church. Thank you for praying for us!

[Monterrey]

What I wonder is if TB is weeping under repentance?

[Tlswift2009]

Well I'm not sure about on this thread, BUT God knows TPC has wept for the loss of our pastor, and for his soul. Everyone loved him dearly and obviously trusted him with everything within us. He left TPC broken, but we are not in this for a man. Our focus is on The Lord and overcoming the obstacles facing us. This is done by prayer and fasting. Our prayer meetings have been life changing, and Bro. Ron Brown, who was voted in as interim pastor, has been a great source of wisdom and comfort to our church. Thank you for praying for us!
This is a WONDERFUL report!!! The church belongs to Jesus Christ, and focusing ours eyes/hearts-affections {FAITH-TRUST} upon Him will bring us through any storm that arises.

[canam]

im calling fake on jd again

[CC1]

tv1a,

Are you publishing some sort of guidance manual under guise of posts?

[tex]

ron brown has been elected interim pastor.

[tex]

he won't get a dime of severance pay.

[CC1]

he won't get a dime of severance pay.

Is this your wish or do you actually know this?

As a church member I would have a hard time if the board or church voted to give severance.

While I don't know of any pastors under some kind of "morality clause" in their contract like professional sports players have I think from a practical and moral standpoint it should be out of the question under the circumstances. Too many pastors justify huge incomes and things like this severance package when they have failed by looking at their church as a business when it is not.

It would be one thing if the man had admitted guilt, confessed fully, asked the church to forgive him, and was seeking restoration through an accountability group, etc, etc.

In that instance I would be open to some severance package (although not the figures being bandied about now) for the sake of his wife.

Under the present circumstances I would continue to pray for him while seeking full restitution for any monies proven to be mishandled but he would not see a dime of severance.

I pray that the report that the board had not retained a lawyer while TB has is not true. They need to protect the church's interest in this situation and need both forensic accounting done (which I think someone said they are doing) and legal advice.

[bishoph]

While I don't know of any pastors under some kind of "morality clause" in their contract like professional sports players have I think from a practical and moral standpoint it should be out of the question under the circumstances. Too many pastors justify huge incomes and things like this severance package when they have failed by looking at their church as a business when it is not.

In reference to the bolded portion: In our church by-laws (which, though their not, IMO should be in all church by-laws) we do have a morality clause that states that should the pastor or any staff member be found to have engaged in conduct un-becoming of a minister he/she may be terminated with no severance paid. Their only severance, so to speak, would only consist of wages/benefits due at the time of dismissal.

[rgcraig]

Tv and RUReady - seriously, you guys need to continue your sidebar dialogue on another thread.

[MissBrattified]

Tv and RUReady - seriously, you guys need to continue your sidebar dialogue on another thread.

I agree; let's make it official.

[rgcraig]

im calling fake on jd again

Not at all. I've met JD and he's the real deal.

[onetongue]

As I stated in my post quite awhile back, I'm a 15 year member at TPC. The facebook photo and deactivation of his acct is correct. As far as a BMW, I'm not aware of that being his current automobile. However, the last automobile that I knew he had, was a Cadillac Escalade "V", the "SuperCharged" edition. My hobby is, old cars and I also make it a point to keep in tune with the new ones as well. Especially the limited edition and rare production ones. So if you know anything about Cadillacs and their "V" models, you will know that they're limited production models, and especially the "Escalade V." You will find a "CTS V" on almost every Cadillac dealerships lot, but an "Escalade V" is a rarity and very hard to come by. A normal Escalade costs around $80,000 on average, depending on options. But an "Escalade V" will cost you around $100,000-$110,000 on average. I can't say for sure, the church paid for this vehicle, but I've been told we did. However, I do know we bought his previous Escalade, prior to the "V" model. There was many things that several TPC members were concerned about, in regards to TB and his egotistical attitude, before this all was uncovered. And it wasn't within the last year or so either, it was an issue and topic of discussion for many years. However, since he was a "big" name in the UPCI, and people looked up to him and respected him merely on the fact, nobody questioned it, or dared to bring it up openly. I know of a few who did and TB had them removed from the church. TB told the TPC members close to these situations, that these rogue members were sewing discord, which is an abomination and biblically speaking, they had to be removed. I could go on and on, but that's not my intention here. Yes, I'm upset and hurt with the way TB has done our church. Especially after all we have done for him & his family. But the truth needs to be told. From what I see and from what I understand, TB is not a repented man. He's still trying to use TPC for his financial gain. Shame on him! Yes, no man is perfect and we all have fell short of God's glory, but we can't sit back and allow TB to continue using us. It's time to come clean and tell it like it is. Maybe then TB will humble himself before God and ask for forgiveness. I remember when TB preached a message a few years ago, he titled it, "Those that can be shaken will be shaken... Are you watching, or are you waiting?" Well what is it TB, are you watching, or are you waiting? So far, it don't look like he can be shaken, that's for sure. I plead the Blood of Jesus over TB soul...

[rgcraig]

I agree; let's make it official.

Thanks, MissB

[Cindy]

I agree; let's make it official.

:thumbsup

[The Lemon]

The answer is really simple common sense...stop running a church like a business...PERIOD. There are many good truth preaching pastors out there who are in fact full time ministers...there are also those who start out that way and end up treating the church like a profit center and their own personal bank.

Lead people, feed them and let God give the increase...don't train them to expect you at every bekon call and for every reason. Don't run the assembly alone, but have elders that can help minister in Word, Hospital Visits etc.

I just shake my head because here in this country we have done alot of this ourselves by adopting the building system to begin with - I still believe true ministry is one on one, not one on 500, or more. Seriously, the owner of my 250M a year company does not drive a $100,000 car. I just don't get it, nor agree with it at all...

[Praxeas]

As I stated in my post quite awhile back, I'm a 15 year member at TPC. The facebook photo and deactivation of his acct is correct. As far as a BMW, I'm not aware of that being his current automobile. However, the last automobile that I knew he had, was a Cadillac Escalade "V", the "SuperCharged" edition. My hobby is, old cars and I also make it a point to keep in tune with the new ones as well. Especially the limited edition and rare production ones. So if you know anything about Cadillacs and their "V" models, you will know that they're limited production models, and especially the "Escalade V." You will find a "CTS V" on almost every Cadillac dealerships lot, but an "Escalade V" is a rarity and very hard to come by. A normal Escalade costs around $80,000 on average, depending on options. But an "Escalade V" will cost you around $100,000-$110,000 on average. I can't say for sure, the church paid for this vehicle, but I've been told we did. However, I do know we bought his previous Escalade, prior to the "V" model. There was many things that several TPC members were concerned about, in regards to TB and his egotistical attitude, before this all was uncovered. And it wasn't within the last year or so either, it was an issue and topic of discussion for many years. However, since he was a "big" name in the UPCI, and people looked up to him and respected him merely on the fact, nobody questioned it, or dared to bring it up openly. I know of a few who did and TB had them removed from the church. TB told the TPC members close to these situations, that these rogue members were sewing discord, which is an abomination and biblically speaking, they had to be removed. I could go on and on, but that's not my intention here. Yes, I'm upset and hurt with the way TB has done our church. Especially after all we have done for him & his family. But the truth needs to be told. From what I see and from what I understand, TB is not a repented man. He's still trying to use TPC for his financial gain. Shame on him! Yes, no man is perfect and we all have fell short of God's glory, but we can't sit back and allow TB to continue using us. It's time to come clean and tell it like it is. Maybe then TB will humble himself before God and ask for forgiveness. I remember when TB preached a message a few years ago, he titled it, "Those that can be shaken will be shaken... Are you watching, or are you waiting?" Well what is it TB, are you watching, or are you waiting? So far, it don't look like he can be shaken, that's for sure. I plead the Blood of Jesus over TB soul...
Who pays for the gas?

[tv1a]

Is this at the request of the wolves who smell fresh meat to devour and want to justify the barbeque?

Tv and RUReady - seriously, you guys need to continue your sidebar dialogue on another thread.

[CC1]

In reference to the bolded portion: In our church by-laws (which, though their not, IMO should be in all church by-laws) we do have a morality clause that states that should the pastor or any staff member be found to have engaged in conduct un-becoming of a minister he/she may be terminated with no severance paid. Their only severance, so to speak, would only consist of wages/benefits due at the time of dismissal.

Good for you! That is excellent protection for the church that you pray will never come into play but good to know it is there.

[CC1]

:thumbsup

If only we could get some admins to chime in!:icecream:happydance

[maui]

Does anyone know if he and sister black are still together?

Did he lose his license with the upci or does he still hold them??

[Praxeas]

There is a rumor he is still with his wife but has been seeing this woman on the side for years

http://www.englishexercises.org/makeagame/my_documents/my_pictures/2012/ago/56D_Ugly-Woman-with-creepy-eyes2.jpg

At the same time though she and our own JacobsLadder have been rumored to be an item......

[AreYouReady?]

Tv and RUReady - seriously, you guys need to continue your sidebar dialogue on another thread.


I agree; let's make it official.


That is fine...except that I have not responded to any of tv1a's posts in four days.

So...is that fair to me to reprimand me today for something that I stopped four days ago?

[BeenThinkin]

There is a rumor he is still with his wife but has been seeing this woman on the side for years

http://www.englishexercises.org/makeagame/my_documents/my_pictures/2012/ago/56D_Ugly-Woman-with-creepy-eyes2.jpg

At the same time though she and our own JacobsLadder have been rumored to be an item......


I sure wish she'd get rid of that double chin!!! It looks so........! :foottap :happydance

Been Thinkin

[maui]

Why would either woman put up with that?? I heard that he moved to washington Dc from someone who knows him well...

[CC1]

Does anyone know if he and sister black are still together?

Did he lose his license with the upci or does he still hold them??

I do not believe anyone has said they have any knowledge about that. I would assume they are still together. Particularly if he is still in the mode of denial and is going to try and continue pastoring / preaching.

[canam]

upci would have pulled his license and he will never get it back !

[tv1a]

For someone who knows the formula for meth you are thin skinned. It's called a pre-emptive strike. The important people want to read gossip.


That is fine...except that I have not responded to any of tv1a's posts in four days.

So...is that fair to me to reprimand me today for something that I stopped four days ago?

[Hizzangel]

Why would either woman put up with that?? I heard that he moved to washington Dc from someone who knows him well...

Must not know him too well. Totally untrue.

[tv1a]

Thanks for proving the point the jackals in their ivory tower have no idea what they are talking about.

Must not know him too well. Totally untrue.

[MissBrattified]

That is fine...except that I have not responded to any of tv1a's posts in four days.

So...is that fair to me to reprimand me today for something that I stopped four days ago?

AreYouReady,

First, it was a very polite request; not a reprimand. :)

Secondly, if the shoe doesn't fit, simply don't wear it.

[CC1]

if the shoe doesn't fit, simply don't wear it.

Just remember you can't say that to a woman since many of them wear shoes way too small because they don't want to admit they really wear a bigger size!

[AreYouReady?]

Yeah....sure....:)

[Timmy]

AreYouReady,

First, it was a very polite request; not a reprimand. :)

Secondly, if the shoe doesn't fit, simply don't wear it.

http://www.dailycognition.com/content/image/18/chinesetinyshoes2-thumb.jpg

[H Gang]

Must not know him too well. Totally untrue.

Why would he move to DC when he has a congregation of 100-150 ppl waiting for him to start a new church?

[H Gang]

Thanks for proving the point the jackals in their ivory tower have no idea what they are talking about.

Spare me the self righteousness...

[StillStanding]

Why would he move to DC when he has a congregation of 100-150 ppl waiting for him to start a new church?

:-)

[tv1a]

Show me scripture where you can snoop into situations that does not concern you, judge people who have no relavance in your life, and make accusations based on hearsay. Where is the scripture permitting people directly involved in the situation to use the internet to gain public support for their position?

The Bible says gossip is an abomination. Gossipers are put in the same catagory as homosexuals. God looks at gossip the same way he looks at homosexuality.

Something to think about.

Spare me the self righteousness...

[tv1a]

You can use a little daily devotion HG. It's possible the KJV doesn't make it clear.

Proverbs 6:16-19 ESV

There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.

Spare me the self righteousness...

[H Gang]

You can use a little daily devotion HG. It's possible the KJV doesn't make it clear.

Proverbs 6:16-19 ESV

There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.

At the risk of a 12 Volume response from you I will simply say: what has been discussed here is NOT hearsay, it's factual. It really happened, the man resigned, no one disputes the reasons why. The above scripture talks about lies and breathing out lies. No lying here. It's the truth Ruth.

Jesus said "by their fruit you shall know them". If I see an apple tree bearing apples, am I being judgmental if I call it an apple tree? If an apple tree claims to be a banana tree but I see apples, am I being judgmental if I call it an apple tree in spite of the claims of the apple tree to the contrary?

Jesus said a good tree cannot produce evil fruit nor can an evil tree produce good fruit. I am not the one who determines the fruit, but I can see the fruit and I can call it for what it is. That's not being judgmental or breathing out lies. That's just stating the truth.

As Jack Nicholson said famously once in a movie "You can't handle the truth!":heeheehee

[H Gang]

Show me scripture where you can snoop into situations that does not concern you, judge people who have no relavance in your life, and make accusations based on hearsay. Where is the scripture permitting people directly involved in the situation to use the internet to gain public support for their position?

The Bible says gossip is an abomination. Gossipers are put in the same catagory as homosexuals. God looks at gossip the same way he looks at homosexuality.

Something to think about.

Self righteousness is condemned in the holy writ. I haven't snooped into anything. This is out in open, on the Internet, videos on the website that were left for weeks where the pastor was calling people jackals and accusing those who were calling him on his bluff of trying to divide the Body of Christ. It's all been very public. And this figure was very open and public that he was the paragon of holiness and contending for those things that made him, his church and his denomination superior to all others. The people directly involved coming on here are unknown, unless you're talking about social media. And since you don't know me, you cant ascertain who is relevant to my life or not. So mind your own business:heeheehee

[mizpeh]

At the risk of a 12 Volume response from you I will simply say: what has been discussed here is NOT hearsay, it's factual. It really happened, the man resigned, no one disputes the reasons why. The above scripture talks about lies and breathing out lies. No lying here. It's the truth Ruth.

Jesus said "by their fruit you shall know them". If I see an apple tree bearing apples, am I being judgmental if I call it an apple tree? If an apple tree claims to be a banana tree but I see apples, am I being judgmental if I call it an apple tree in spite of the claims of the apple tree to the contrary?

Jesus said a good tree cannot produce evil fruit nor can an evil tree produce good fruit. I am not the one who determines the fruit, but I can see the fruit and I can call it for what it is. That's not being judgmental or breathing out lies. That's just stating the truth.

As Jack Nicholson said famously once in a movie "You can't handle the truth!":heeheehee

:highfive

Judgmentalism is one apple tree saying that the other apple tree which produces bananas is going to hell.

[tv1a]

You haven't defined how I'm self righteous. People act like a hormone crazed boy watching a rated R movie with this stuff. It's not often the average joe can feed on the carcass of the ministry. I don't believe the Bible makes exceptions for people who entertain gossip. Even if you had skin in the game, public posturing isn't the christian way to resolve the issue.


Self righteousness is condemned in the holy writ. I haven't snooped into anything. This is out in open, on the Internet, videos on the website that were left for weeks where the pastor was calling people jackals and accusing those who were calling him on his bluff of trying to divide the Body of Christ. It's all been very public. And this figure was very open and public that he was the paragon of holiness and contending for those things that made him, his church and his denomination superior to all others. The people directly involved coming on here are unknown, unless you're talking about social media. And since you don't know me, you cant ascertain who is relevant to my life or not. So mind your own business:heeheehee

[Praxeas]

The Bible says gossip is an abomination. Gossipers are put in the same catagory as homosexuals. God looks at gossip the same way he looks at homosexuality.

Something to think about.
Where is that verse at?

[tv1a]

Proverbs says gossip is one of the abominations. Same word used to describe God's feelings towards homosexuality.

Where is that verse at?

[Praxeas]

Proverbs says gossip is one of the abominations. Same word used to describe God's feelings towards homosexuality.
Which verse was that?