Prominent Memphis Area Pastor Resigns

[CC1]

Looks like a prominent Memphis, TN area UPC pastor has unexpectedly suddenly resigned after 20 years.

I was told that on Sunday visitors were asked to leave, told that they were not having service and at that point the pastor came out and announced his resignation.

While this church is not a "mega church" it is a fairly large one (around 800 members according to their website) and has been stable for years so I am sure they will have no problem finding a new pastor.

Will be interesting to see where the resigning pastor goes.

[LooneyLucy]

who was the pastor?

[CC1]

who was the pastor?

Terry Black.

[AreYouReady?]

Wow.

If I was a visitor who came to church looking for Christ there and was asked to leave, I would have all sorts of thoughts going through my head.

Too bad the leadership there was not more pulled together to call an emergency business meeting on a weekday when visitors were not involved.

[rgcraig]

Hmmmm - - had not heard that yet.

[Timmy]

Here's all the latest new, from the church website ;):

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee225/arraywie/news.jpg

http://www.tpcmemphis.org/news.aspx

[rgcraig]

Lol, Timmy! No wonder I hadn't heard anything yet!

[CC1]

Hmmmm - - had not heard that yet.

I am shocked! You are right there. No excuse. I will be on the road the next hour or so. If you get a chance call me.

[TOBZMOM]

So sad! I'm thinking there's a lot of preachers that need to be in the alter w/the rest of us!

[rgcraig]

So sad! I'm thinking there's a lot of preachers that need to be in the alter w/the rest of us!

It appears you might be close to the situation.

[Cindy]

Lord, help us. Pray for our Pastors and saints.

[MawMaw]

To be a Pastor has got to be one of the hardest jobs
there is. Praying for that church.

[CC1]

To be a Pastor has got to be one of the hardest jobs
there is. Praying for that church.

Lacey,

You are absolutely correct. I can't imagine being one myself. My prayers go out to our pastor's for Gods guidance, grace, and on and on.

[BeenThinkin]

To be a Pastor has got to be one of the hardest jobs
there is. Praying for that church.


You could only know that by being one. I have been many years. And it seems sometimes that the ones you help the most, hurt you the most. Have had some that I put many hours, and money out of my pocket, in to them and when they decide they want to leave just walk off without saying a word to you. A caring Pastor is hurt by those actions! I know!

Of course the Jones brothers, Grace Church Humble, Tx said the other night on their internet program, that even Jesus couldn't keep them all.

John 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no
more with him.
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

Thanks for listening.

Been Thinkin

[Revsidebyside]

Just to clear things up. Terry Black did resign. The meeting was approx after 1 hour after the regular service. So it was a members only meeting.

[Revsidebyside]

No visitors were ask to leave regular service.

[rgcraig]

Lord, help us. Pray for our Pastors and saints.

Amen!

[canam]

No visitors were ask to leave regular service.

that makes sense not what was posted here originally thanks

[AreYouReady?]

No visitors were ask to leave regular service.

Very happy to know that. Thanks.

[Monterrey]

What was the reason given?

[tv1a]

Inquiring minds want to know, but it's none of our business. Thoughts and prayers goes to the congregation, and the leadership. Prayers for the pastor who resigned also.
What was the reason given?

[Bishop Cleatus]

Well, there's this. Wow.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pentecostal_Church,_Memphis

[tv1a]

Here we go again.

[CC1]

Well, there's this. Wow.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pentecostal_Church,_Memphis

Wow! That update on wikipedia was wicked fast. Maybe a board member is a wikipedia contributor. When I started this thread I had absolutely no idea of why the sudden resignation. However since that time I received a telephone call with the same information I see that Wikipedia has published.

Regardless of the details of what happened this church family needs our prayers as well as the former pastor's family.

[Chateau d'If]

Just received word that this is not a good situation.

[trialedbyfire]

Holding that church, the pastor, and his family up in prayer. Indeed the church is under attack, it's hard to even consider being a pastor in these last days. Wow.

[MawMaw]

You could only know that by being one. I have been many years. And it seems sometimes that the ones you help the most, hurt you the most. Have had some that I put many hours, and money out of my pocket, in to them and when they decide they want to leave just walk off without saying a word to you. A caring Pastor is hurt by those actions! I know!

No, brother, I've never been one nor has my husband. I do have close friends
and some family that are. I've seen them go through things as you've described. I don't understand how some people can mistreat the Man of God so flippantly. I respectfully fear the Lord and the office he has placed of Preacher. Woe be it unto those who do His servants harm.

God bless you Brother BT. I'm sure you have many in your congregation
now who are so very thankful for you! :)

I do pray for the Ministry every day.

[Charnock]

Some of this drives me batty.

Look folks, when a preacher falls morally -no matter the sin- it's not because the Devil made him do it. It's because he doesn't practice what he preaches.

Far too often we blame the Devil, or demons, or spiritual warfare.

The truth is ultraconservative flesh is no different from uberliberal flesh.

This is a huge hole in the ultracon armor. Ultracon Apo's believe their standards keep them from falling. But they don't.

[CC1]

Some of this drives me batty.

Look folks, when a preacher falls morally -no matter the sin- it's not because the Devil made him do it. It's because he doesn't practice what he preaches.

Far too often we blame the Devil, or demons, or spiritual warfare.

The truth is ultraconservative flesh is no different from uberliberal flesh.

This is a huge hole in the ultracon armor. Ultracon Apo's believe their standards keep them from falling. But they don't.

Sadly what you say is true. I think everybody realizes that ultimately it is a human beings failure but you must acknowledge that ministers seem to be under particularly harsh spiritual attacks. I believe it is because the enemy of our souls knows what a negative impact a minister failing has. It ripples out to effect a lot more people than when a saint fails. It is not just "shooting two birds with one stone" but sometimes shooting scores or hundreds with one stone.

[Bishop Cleatus]

Wow! That update on wikipedia was wicked fast. Maybe a board member is a wikipedia contributor. When I started this thread I had absolutely no idea of why the sudden resignation. However since that time I received a telephone call with the same information I see that Wikipedia has published.

Regardless of the details of what happened this church family needs our prayers as well as the former pastor's family.

And.... Now it's gone.

[Scott Hutchinson]

Yes we if don't stay prayed and in tune with The Lord,we are all subject to fall.

[Bishop Cleatus]

Yes we if don't stay prayed and in tune with The Lord,we are all subject to fall.

Very true.

[Scott Hutchinson]

I don't know this situation of this church,and don't really need to. But I hate to hear of any Christian minister or believer falling into a moral failure,it certainly does not help the cause of The Christian faith.

[BeenThinkin]

No, brother, I've never been one nor has my husband. I do have close friends
and some family that are. I've seen them go through things as you've described. I don't understand how some people can mistreat the Man of God so flippantly. I respectfully fear the Lord and the office he has placed of Preacher. Woe be it unto those who do His servants harm.

God bless you Brother BT. I'm sure you have many in your congregation
now who are so very thankful for you! :)

I do pray for the Ministry every day.


Thanks Lacey for your kind words and I do appreciate your prayers. It's great to love and be loved by your congregation. And the rewards and blessings far outweigh the negatives. Our reward is eternal and too often I guess we look for too much here.

I know all of we preachers and especially the Pastor are easy targets. And if I wanted to lower the bar I could tell you about many of those "terrible saints" and take them to the wood shed like they take us. But I won't and it's not as bad as I probably make it sound. The majority are faithful, God fearing and loving individuals who support and stand behind their Pastors, even though some "Pastor Bashers" might think that's a bad thing for them to do. Hey, I like that term, "Pastor Basher!" It almost sounds vulgar, tho! I better stop while I'm ahead and as someone stated on another post, "I never was ahead!" ha ha :heeheehee

Been Thinkin

[CC1]

And.... Now it's gone.

Wow! You are right. Somebody went and edited out that addition to wiki about the resignation and allegations.

[Scott Hutchinson]

I wonder sometimes though in OP circles,if ministers falling,could have something to do with how high Ministers are put on pedestals ?

[Chateau d'If]

I saw the Wike link before it was removed.

Moral failure and financial impropriety both seem vague.

Sure hope someone's not out to get this pastor and spreading lies.

[Scott Hutchinson]

I saw the Wike link before it was removed.

Moral failure and financial impropriety both seem vague.

Sure hope someone's not out to get this pastor and spreading lies.

That would be awful.

[LooneyLucy]

I saw the Wike link before it was removed.

Moral failure and financial impropriety both seem vague.

Sure hope someone's not out to get this pastor and spreading lies.

Amen! It stinks to be falsely accused.

[Bishop Cleatus]

I saw the Wike link before it was removed.

Moral failure and financial impropriety both seem vague.

Sure hope someone's not out to get this pastor and spreading lies.

Agree. Does seem awfully abrupt to post something like that on Wikipedia without a motive.

[Dordrecht]

Agree. Does seem awfully abrupt to post something like that on Wikipedia without a motive.

Or on a Christian forum.

[CC1]

I saw the Wike link before it was removed.

Moral failure and financial impropriety both seem vague.

Sure hope someone's not out to get this pastor and spreading lies.

I would think it was just the person posting it showing a bit of class not detailing the accusations. I think what was written covered the situation just fine.

[OnTheFritz]

Or on a Christian forum.

The original post didn't specify reasons. They were just stating the facts about the departure. Cleatus posted the Wikipedia link - but, well, it was on Wikipedia... Pretty public already.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Some of this drives me batty.

Look folks, when a preacher falls morally -no matter the sin- it's not because the Devil made him do it. It's because he doesn't practice what he preaches.

Far too often we blame the Devil, or demons, or spiritual warfare.

The truth is ultraconservative flesh is no different from uberliberal flesh.

This is a huge hole in the ultracon armor. Ultracon Apo's believe their standards keep them from falling. But they don't.


Hey what about the Guru Nityananda Swami getting arrested?

Listen, it has nothing to do with ultra or liberal, Christian, or Brahmin, people drop the ball, and everyone on the side lines either throw kisses, or sling mud.
Positions of authority, or positions of followers, people are going to be people.

Oh, another thing, standards thrown under the bus?

Good grief, some people need to get themselves some new material. :heeheehee

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/photo/14031173.cms

[Monterrey]

So did he really resign or not?

[mizpeh]

Sadly what you say is true. I think everybody realizes that ultimately it is a human beings failure but you must acknowledge that ministers seem to be under particularly harsh spiritual attacks. I believe it is because the enemy of our souls knows what a negative impact a minister failing has. It ripples out to effect a lot more people than when a saint fails. It is not just "shooting two birds with one stone" but sometimes shooting scores or hundreds with one stone.Kill the shepherd and the sheep will be scattered.

[CC1]

So did he really resign or not?

Yes. It is not rumor. I would not have posted that he resigned if it were not true.

[Scott Hutchinson]

Yes. It is not rumor. I would not have posted that he resigned if it were not true.

Yes you might be a ultra lib,but you are honest.:yourock

[Charnock]

Hey what about the Guru Nityananda Swami getting arrested?

Listen, it has nothing to do with ultra or liberal, Christian, or Brahmin, people drop the ball, and everyone on the side lines either throw kisses, or sling mud.
Positions of authority, or positions of followers, people are going to be people.

Oh, another thing, standards thrown under the bus?

Good grief, some people need to get themselves some new material. :heeheehee

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/photo/14031173.cms

You say that with a straight face while we are talking about yet another incident. The irony is rich.

[Jay]

Bro. Terry Black was not a conservative from my understanding. I might be incorrect, but I do not believe that I am wrong. I would need to see more of his church.

[Monterrey]

Jay, he probably did not run in your circle but he was considered by most to be moderate to conservative.

[Jay]

Jay, he probably did not run in your circle but he was considered by most to be moderate to conservative.

If it was who I believe it was, I heard him preach once at the Tampa GC.

[Monterrey]

Well, if he has messed up, it sounds like he said he was going to submit to bro kilgore. Good to hear that, we all need to be saved.

I pray for him and the church.

[The Lemon]

Prayers for Bro. Black and his family as well as this church. NONE of us is beyond failing or falling, be it small or large. It is impossible to take on one another's burdens while we throw each other under the bus.

In my opinion, many times, there is an unfair amount of pressure and expectation put on pastors in general. We all need to work out oue own salvation. I have always believed in personal responsibility for self, and for our families. This should be something that drives us to pray and be compassionate...not the opposite.

I hate hearing about these terrible wounds...these folks need the balm poured in and the blood of Christ pleaded over them. I pray Gods will be done..in Jesus Name!

[CC1]

Bro. Terry Black was not a conservative from my understanding. I might be incorrect, but I do not believe that I am wrong. I would need to see more of his church.

Whether he was conservative or not depends on your paradigm. From my perspective he certainly was. It is certainly not a church that allowed cut hair, makeup or jewelry on women. Nor women wearing pants, etc. Now if you mean maybe he allowed sleeves to be above the elbows.........then that is another story.

[rgcraig]

Well, if he has messed up, it sounds like he said he was going to submit to bro kilgore. Good to hear that, we all need to be saved.

I pray for him and the church.

Clarification - he asked the church to submit to James Kilgore and Dr. James Hughes for the interim.

Pray for everyone involved in this situation.

[rgcraig]

Prayers for Bro. Black and his family as well as this church. NONE of us is beyond failing or falling, be it small or large. It is impossible to take on one another's burdens while we throw each other under the bus.

In my opinion, many times, there is an unfair amount of pressure and expectation put on pastors in general. We all need to work out oue own salvation. I have always believed in personal responsibility for self, and for our families. This should be something that drives us to pray and be compassionate...not the opposite.

I hate hearing about these terrible wounds...these folks need the balm poured in and the blood of Christ pleaded over them. I pray Gods will be done..in Jesus Name!

Good post.

[LooneyLucy]

Prayers for Bro. Black and his family as well as this church. NONE of us is beyond failing or falling, be it small or large. It is impossible to take on one another's burdens while we throw each other under the bus.

In my opinion, many times, there is an unfair amount of pressure and expectation put on pastors in general. We all need to work out oue own salvation. I have always believed in personal responsibility for self, and for our families. This should be something that drives us to pray and be compassionate...not the opposite.

I hate hearing about these terrible wounds...these folks need the balm poured in and the blood of Christ pleaded over them. I pray Gods will be done..in Jesus Name!

Beautifully put. As saints we expect mercy and grace, but think our pastor should be perfect.....not happening.

[Charnock]

Whether he was conservative or not depends on your paradigm. From my perspective he certainly was. It is certainly not a church that allowed cut hair, makeup or jewelry on women. Nor women wearing pants, etc. Now if you mean maybe he allowed sleeves to be above the elbows.........then that is another story.

Yes, and he is a firm supporter of the Holy Magic Hair doctrine. Lee Stoneking has been a frequent guest.

[Chateau d'If]

Prayers for Bro. Black and his family as well as this church. NONE of us is beyond failing or falling, be it small or large. It is impossible to take on one another's burdens while we throw each other under the bus.

Point 1: True, but don't you wish that some of these cats would be as humble before their fall as they are afterward? Instead they create a culture where anything less than sinless perfection is grounds for shunning.

[houston]

Beautifully put. As saints we expect mercy and grace, but think our pastor should be perfect.....not happening.

Pastors expect perfection from saints, and even perfection isn't good enough for some scoundrels.

[Chateau d'If]

In my opinion, many times, there is an unfair amount of pressure and expectation put on pastors in general. We all need to work out oue own salvation. I have always believed in personal responsibility for self, and for our families.

Point 2: Most of that pressure is self-induced.

Apostolic ministry is known for its heavy emphasis on pastor infallibility.

"In all things consult your pastor because he hears from God for you, and will give an account for your soul."

[Chateau d'If]

Pastors expect perfection from saints, and even perfection isn't good enough for some scoundrels.

This.

And when their own imperfections are exposed they hide behind the compassion and mercy they previously refused to give others.

[LooneyLucy]

Point 1: True, but don't you wish that some of these cats would be as humble before their fall as they are afterward? Instead they create a culture where anything less than sinless perfection is grounds for shunning.

Wow! Don't know where y'all have gone, but my pastor is EXTREMELY merciful and believes in complete restoration.

[Tsakali024]

I am familiar with the church. I even visited a few times over the years. From what I understand TB's whole family was employed at the church. TB was on the payroll, as well as his wife, two sons-in-law, daughter, and son. Nepotism anyone?

[HolyFire]

I am familiar with the church. I even visited a few times over the years. From what I understand TB's whole family was employed at the church. TB was on the payroll, as well as his wife, two sons-in-law, daughter, and son. Nepotism anyone?

His son in law was asst. pastor, daughter church sec. Many churches are like this.

[The Lemon]

I understand that there are pastors who have done harm, but I think we do just as much damage when we make large sweeping statements and lump pastors into a catagory of money hungry power and control freaks - when that is the exception and most certainly not the rule.

Regardless, it only matters how qwe guard our own spirits, and how merciful we are as an individual when someone falls....if we let them die in the situation, and refuse help because they were wrong in what they did or said, then where does that leave us, and are we any more Christian they they who have made an error??

We need to see these situations from a spiritual perspective and keep in mind the Word of God and not sort through them in the flesh and through a lense of hurt from our own perspective and past. I believe if we consider our own frame, and shortcomings, we can easily show compassion, because honestly...we all have sinned and come short.

I must look in the mirror first, see my life as it is, deal with me, and understand my weaknesses - if not, how can I reach down and help my brother who has fallen??

[Monterrey]

Clarification - he asked the church to submit to James Kilgore and Dr. James Hughes for the interim.

Pray for everyone involved in this situation.

I stand corrected. Had trouble hearing the audio.

[Tsakali024]

I understand that there are pastors who have done harm, but I think we do just as much damage when we make large sweeping statements and lump pastors into a catagory of money hungry power and control freaks - when that is the exception and most certainly not the rule.

Regardless, it only matters how qwe guard our own spirits, and how merciful we are as an individual when someone falls....if we let them die in the situation, and refuse help because they were wrong in what they did or said, then where does that leave us, and are we any more Christian they they who have made an error??

We need to see these situations from a spiritual perspective and keep in mind the Word of God and not sort through them in the flesh and through a lense of hurt from our own perspective and past. I believe if we consider our own frame, and shortcomings, we can easily show compassion, because honestly...we all have sinned and come short.

I must look in the mirror first, see my life as it is, deal with me, and understand my weaknesses - if not, how can I reach down and help my brother who has fallen??

I understand what you are saying. Yes, we are all human and everyone has their faults. I think it's just stunning, though, that a man wrestling with demons to the extent that TB apparently was, would have the audacity to remain in his pastoral leadership role, continue to preach, and counsel congregants on issues he was not likely qualified to address (given his own personal struggle). The blind being led by the blind often leads to everyone plunging over a cliff. Luckily, this pastor resigned and hopefully the church will continue on.

[LooneyLucy]

I think the real problem "in the church" is that there is not enough marriage training? or teaching? whatever you want to call it. Women marry preachers many times, just because they are a preacher no matter what the man looks like, just for the prestige of being married to a preacher. Then the man gets this beautiful wife and if he does not know how to connect with her on an emotional level, their intimate life will be VERY minimal. Face it, men need sex. If he goes years without gettin it at home, he will find it somewhere. Too many of my friends have gotten divorced in the last 2 years, leaving 20+ years of marriage and their "preacher" husbands, either he cheated or her.

He wants sex, but doesn't know how to give his wife the emotional aspect to make her want it, and since he doesn't fulfill her emotionally she looks for another man to fulfill her in that manner.

Men are DUMB in most marriages, they think it's all about the mechanics, when in reality it's about that emotional connection.

[houston]

I stand corrected. Had trouble hearing the audio.

Old...

[OnTheFritz]

This.

And when their own imperfections are exposed they hide behind the compassion and mercy they previously refused to give others.

This.

I've been blessed to sit under pastors who are truly compassionate. But there does seem to be a correlation between the heaviest handed leaders and their tendency to fall hard in the areas that were most preached against.

[The Lemon]

Sometimes the "connection" is not made (or not consistant) because they are out of balance in their life.

I know of some 20+ year marriages that have failed - both ministers and others, one thing I noticed in the ministry was burnout - when a person gives constantly in ministry and has nothing left for the home...guess what suffers??

I can't tell you how many times I have heard of ministers wives who are depressed, and despise not only their respective role in ministry, but also their husband and even the church - the same can be true of the husband. When there is no "coming together" and no deep emotional connection between spouses...there is a great storm coming..PERIOD.

No wonder Paul said he would prefer folks to be like him. After all, when you marry, a husbands duty is to please his wife, and the wife her husband....you can't do this as an absentee husband / wife / or father. The way we "do church" is half the problem in my opinion.. and that goes from the top down. Here is a noval idea:

1. Stop running a Church like a profit center
2. Make a living using skills and education outside the ministry - thus preventing the survival temptation to live off of people's free will generosity
3. Don't train saints to expect you to be there at every bekon call
4. Set the stage for personal growth and accountability and quit coddling saints for 30 years on the pew
5. Stay out of the politics in organized religion...politics is bad regardless of where it is
6. Don't play to the crowd and to your peer group...be you and be honest
7. Stick to principle and drop tradition where you can
8. Don't try to protect your image...just be a Christian
9. Preach the truth in love
10. Prefer your wife and children over other people, organizations, expectations.


There...

[mizpeh]

This.

And when their own imperfections are exposed they hide behind the compassion and mercy they previously refused to give others.

Most of us have to learn the hard way. Thank God for his grace toward all of us.

[OnTheFritz]

...I think the real problem "in the church" is that there is not enough marriage training? or teaching? whatever you want to call it. Women marry preachers many times, just because they are a preacher no matter what the man looks like, just for the prestige of being married to a preacher. Then the man gets this beautiful wife and if he does not know how to connect with her on an emotional level, their intimate life will be VERY minimal. Face it, men need sex. If he goes years without gettin it at home, he will find it somewhere. Too many of my friends have gotten divorced in the last 2 years, leaving 20+ years of marriage and their "preacher" husbands, either he cheated or her.

He wants sex, but doesn't know how to give his wife the emotional aspect to make her want it, and since he doesn't fulfill her emotionally she looks for another man to fulfill her in that manner.

Men are DUMB in most marriages, they think it's all about the mechanics, when in reality it's about that emotional connection.

This is a pretty insightful post.

Though as a man, I think that boiling down the issue to men being dumb is a little ... Well, dumb ;).

Complex systems fail in complex ways. Both men and women have to work hard to understand each other's "systems". It does NOT come natural - which I find baffling, by the way. So much of it isn't about intelligence. It's about emotion and to a large extent, hormones, of course ;). Trust me, it would be easy for us to call the woman's perspective "dumb." Just sayin'.

[KeptByTheWord]

...I think the real problem "in the church" is that there is not enough marriage training? or teaching? whatever you want to call it. Women marry preachers many times, just because they are a preacher no matter what the man looks like, just for the prestige of being married to a preacher. Then the man gets this beautiful wife and if he does not know how to connect with her on an emotional level, their intimate life will be VERY minimal. Face it, men need sex. If he goes years without gettin it at home, he will find it somewhere. Too many of my friends have gotten divorced in the last 2 years, leaving 20+ years of marriage and their "preacher" husbands, either he cheated or her.

He wants sex, but doesn't know how to give his wife the emotional aspect to make her want it, and since he doesn't fulfill her emotionally she looks for another man to fulfill her in that manner.

Men are DUMB in most marriages, they think it's all about the mechanics, when in reality it's about that emotional connection.

This is a really good post. More time needs to be spent in marriage counseling before a marriage to ensure both man and woman understand the physical and emotional needs of each other.

[LooneyLucy]

Sometimes the "connection" is not made (or not consistant) because they are out of balance in their life.

I know of some 20+ year marriages that have failed - both ministers and others, one thing I noticed in the ministry was burnout - when a person gives constantly in ministry and has nothing left for the home...guess what suffers??

I can't tell you how many times I have heard of ministers wives who are depressed, and despise not only their respective role in ministry, but also their husband and even the church - the same can be true of the husband. When there is no "coming together" and no deep emotional connection between spouses...there is a great storm coming..PERIOD.

No wonder Paul said he would prefer folks to be like him. After all, when you marry, a husbands duty is to please his wife, and the wife her husband....you can't do this as an absentee husband / wife / or father. The way we "do church" is half the problem in my opinion.. and that goes from the top down. Here is a noval idea:

1. Stop running a Church like a profit center
2. Make a living using skills and education outside the ministry - thus preventing the survival temptation to live off of people's free will generosity
3. Don't train saints to expect you to be there at every bekon call
4. Set the stage for personal growth and accountability and quit coddling saints for 30 years on the pew
5. Stay out of the politics in organized religion...politics is bad regardless of where it is
6. Don't play to the crowd and to your peer group...be you and be honest
7. Stick to principle and drop tradition where you can
8. Don't try to protect your image...just be a Christian
9. Preach the truth in love
10. Prefer your wife and children over other people, organizations, expectations.


There...

You sound like a very wise person, indeed. :clap

[KeptByTheWord]

I would like to say this about this situation.... Bro. Black should be very thankful that he gets a chance to repent, and find grace in his situation now. Many preachers have lived double lives, and died, never repenting of their wicked ways, awaiting the judgment day with the stain of sin on their record.

I would say that this is a blessing for Bro. Black, as in the case of King David... to be able to have a chance to repent and hopefully find his way back to a merciful and loving God in this life.... I am praying that is the case for he, and his family. I would rather deal with unrepented sin here on this earth with a chance to apply the blood, and start over, then to wait until eternity to meet with God.

[LooneyLucy]

This is a pretty insightful post.

Though as a man, I think that boiling down the issue to men being dumb is a little ... Well, dumb ;).

Complex systems fail in complex ways. Both men and women have to work hard to understand each other's "systems". It does NOT come natural - which I find baffling, by the way. So much of it isn't about intelligence. It's about emotion and to a large extent, hormones, of course ;). Trust me, it would be easy for us to call the woman's perspective "dumb." Just sayin'.

I apologize for using the word "DUMB" but it happens to fit my circumstance and many many husbands I have had the misfortune of knowing, who are married to women I know.

[LooneyLucy]

I would like to say this about this situation.... Bro. Black should be very thankful that he gets a chance to repent, and find grace in his situation now. Many preachers have lived double lives, and died, never repenting of their wicked ways, awaiting the judgment day with the stain of sin on their record.

I would say that this is a blessing for Bro. Black, as in the case of King David... to be able to have a chance to repent and hopefully find his way back to a merciful and loving God in this life.... I am praying that is the case for he, and his family. I would rather deal with unrepented sin here on this earth with a chance to apply the blood, and start over, then to wait until eternity to meet with God.

Amen! Some end up like Achan, with no space to repent and some like the prodigal.

[KeptByTheWord]

And I guess I should clarify "many preachers" and say "many Christians".... as it does apply to all souls... but it just seems that when a minister falls, it has much more fallout and damage than when just one single person falls.

[LooneyLucy]

I have had 2 pastors who regularly tell the congregation they are not perfect. I love those 2 men. In fact one of them frequently says, "I have told God, I hope he doesn't come when I am driving, cause I might not go".

The pastor I had growing up caused us to feel that he was so far above us and you were privileged to spend time in his presence IF he ever allowed it. Those days are gone, baby. I feel sorry for anyone sitting under a pastor like that in this day and age.

[Timmy]

This is a really good post. More time needs to be spent in marriage counseling before a marriage to ensure both man and woman understand the physical and emotional needs of each other.

Marriage counseling? Why? All you (as a believer) need to know is in Paul's writing: don't get married, unless you really want to have sex.

Simple!

[LooneyLucy]

Marriage counseling? Why? All you (as a believer) need to know is in Paul's writing: don't get married, unless you really want to have sex.

Simple!

BWAHAHA :heeheehee:nod:chat:gaga

[Timmy]

BWAHAHA :heeheehee:nod:chat:gaga

Well, yeah, but it really is better to marry than to burn. Isn't it? :heeheehee

[Michael Phelps]

I apologize for using the word "DUMB" but it happens to fit my circumstance and many many husbands I have had the misfortune of knowing, who are married to women I know.

I would just like to state for the record, that this goes both ways....it's not always the man.

[Monterrey]

Old...

Thou art treading on holy ground.....:smack

[LooneyLucy]

I would just like to state for the record, that this goes both ways....it's not always the man.

True, however, the Bible says for men to love their wives as Christ loved the church. In most instances if the man does this, everything else falls into place, unless the woman is just a spoiled brat or has mental problems.

[Michael Phelps]

True, however, the Bible says for men to love their wives as Christ loved the church. In most instances if the man does this, everything else falls into place, unless the woman is just a spoiled brat or has mental problems.

I don't necessarily agree.....there has to be some compatibility that goes beyond physical. You mentioned it in your previous post.....and the onus is not necessarily only on the man to love his wife, the other side of the scripture you mentioned says that women should submit to their husbands and reverence them......

I definitely agree with the fact that many marriages were entered into for the wrong reasons, but to say that men are dumb is just an unfair statement.....sometimes it's the women who are unsatisfied and unwilling to fulfill their part of the deal.

I guess what I'm saying is that it works both ways....and then sometimes couples just come to the realization that there is no compatibility, and it's time to cut their losses.

[LooneyLucy]

And if you will notice, I apologized for using "DUMB" just merely said that has been my experience.

[HolyFire]

I lived in the Memphis area for a decade, this hurts. Grey Rd. is no more (used to run 350+), the W. Memphis church has left the UPCI (I believe, I know they are ultra-libs compared to my decade there when they were mods) and now this. Terry Black was one of those men you could follow after as he followed Christ. He was a humble man, one who wasn't covetous or heavy handed or unmerciful.

This is hard for me, the area I prayed for so often in a spiritual storm. TPC will survive and God will have a church.

[AreYouReady?]

.

[AreYouReady?]

I don't even know the man...or ever heard of him.

But for some reason, this feels like an arrow in my heart.

Maybe because many people forget that Pastors are merely human beings and too much emphasis is placed as the pastor "watching over our souls" as someone here put it.

People need to remember that we are responsible for ourselves for what we do. There are too many 30 and 40 year old babies sitting in the pew waiting for the pastor's ok to do anything. Christ expects us to grow and mature in our walk with Him and go out into the world and bring others to Christ and help them to mature. It's like raising your family at home.

There isn't any place on God's earth where one man is able to watch 'watch over the souls' of 800 people. Even to watch over the souls of 50 people is too much for one man. He is supposed to feed the people with knowledge of the Word of God so they can discern for themselves what to do, not run every aspect of their life. Not run interference for every problem they may have. That is too much of a burden on any one man.

Consider in the OT, when Moses sat to 'counsel' people from day to night. Read the words of wisdom from his father-in-law, Jethro.

13And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses sat to judge the people: and the people stood by Moses from the morning unto the evening.
14 And when Moses' father in law saw all that he did to the people, he said, What is this thing that thou doest to the people? why sittest thou thyself alone, and all the people stand by thee from morning unto even?
15 And Moses said unto his father in law, Because the people come unto me to enquire of God:
16 When they have a matter, they come unto me; and I judge between one and another, and I do make them know the statutes of God, and his laws.
17 And Moses' father in law said unto him, The thing that thou doest is not good.
18 Thou wilt surely wear away, both thou, and this people that is with thee: for this thing is too heavy for thee; thou art not able to perform it thyself alone.
19 Hearken now unto my voice, I will give thee counsel, and God shall be with thee: Be thou for the people to God-ward, that thou mayest bring the causes unto God:
20 And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do.
21 Moreover thou shalt provide out of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place such over them, to be rulers of thousands, and rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens:
22 And let them judge the people at all seasons: and it shall be, that every great matter they shall bring unto thee, but every small matter they shall judge: so shall it be easier for thyself, and they shall bear the burden with thee.
23 If thou shalt do this thing, and God command thee so, then thou shalt be able to endure, and all this people shall also go to their place in peace.
(Exodus 18:13-23)

These are very wise words spoken by Moses father-in-law and God did not forbid it.

Pastors wear themselves out with this "watching for your soul" business. They inadvertently ruin their own family life and personal time with their spouse because even in a small church, there will always be someone who is having a personal problem that needs attention from the pastor. Jethro saw that this is not good for one man.

I don't know why my heart grieves for this man and his family, but as saints of the Lord, we all take responsibility for moral and financial failures because Christ's church is not supposed to be cultish-like. It is supposed to be a vibrant, ever growing entity that is somewhat electrically charged in that wherever we go, our spark of Christ (Holy Ghost) should leap off us and touch the unsaved wherever they are at and they feel the real deal of our Savior.

We should be followers of Christ showing the pathway to Him, rather than saying "Hey, why don't you come to church with me". Show them Christ first even if it means having home bible studies with them before bringing them to the assembly for the worshiping service. Going to church for some folks are too big a step to take.

If we are called to Christ, then we are all ministers to Him in some capacity. Quit relying so heavily on the pastor for everything.

I wonder if this is what was in mind when the following scripture was spoken saying: Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

(Hebrews 13:17)

[Timmy]

I don't even know the man...or ever heard of him.

But for some reason, this feels like an arrow in my heart.

Maybe because many people forget that Pastors are merely human beings and too much emphasis is placed as the pastor "watching over our souls" as someone here put it.

Sometimes pastors forget that they are merely human, too. I think that is often the very heart of the matter, when they have their human failings.

[rgcraig]

Sometimes pastors forget that they are merely human, too. I think that is often the very heart of the matter, when they have their human failings.

:highfive

[houston]

Thou art treading on holy ground.....:smack

Dreamt about you this morning.

Thus saith...

[bbyrd009]

Forsooth, pray tell. Here ye.

[mizpeh]

I don't necessarily agree.....there has to be some compatibility that goes beyond physical. You mentioned it in your previous post.....and the onus is not necessarily only on the man to love his wife, the other side of the scripture you mentioned says that women should submit to their husbands and reverence them......

I definitely agree with the fact that many marriages were entered into for the wrong reasons, but to say that men are dumb is just an unfair statement.....sometimes it's the women who are unsatisfied and unwilling to fulfill their part of the deal.

I guess what I'm saying is that it works both ways....and then sometimes couples just come to the realization that there is no compatibility, and it's time to cut their losses.

"time to cut their losses" is not a biblical option. More like time to seek God and find a good Christian counselor.

http://whchurch.org/sermons-media/sermon/communicating-with-god-part-1

[LooneyLucy]

"time to cut their losses" is not a biblical option. More like time to seek God and find a good Christian counselor.

http://whchurch.org/sermons-media/sermon/communicating-with-god-part-1

Amen, Miz!

[Michael Phelps]

And if you will notice, I apologized for using "DUMB" just merely said that has been my experience.

I know you did, no problem, I wasn't really even referring to the terminology, just the situation on both sides of the fence.

I wholeheartedly agree with your overall assessment, I think you are very wise and insightful.

[Michael Phelps]

"time to cut their losses" is not a biblical option. More like time to seek God and find a good Christian counselor.

http://whchurch.org/sermons-media/sermon/communicating-with-god-part-1

I'm not talking about Biblical options, I'm talking about real world, Miz.....by the time many folks get to that place, they really don't care about Biblical guidelines.

As you say, the ideal situation is to find common ground, work thru it, stay together, and find a new love within the marriage.

[AreYouReady?]

Sometimes pastors forget that they are merely human, too. I think that is often the very heart of the matter, when they have their human failings.

That is a more profound statement than you probably realize, Timmy. Very insightful and a lesson for all christian worshippers.

[Praxeas]

Pastors expect perfection from saints, and even perfection isn't good enough for some scoundrels.
Which pastors?

[Praxeas]

Wow! Don't know where y'all have gone, but my pastor is EXTREMELY merciful and believes in complete restoration.
Exactly

[Praxeas]

His son in law was asst. pastor, daughter church sec. Many churches are like this.
True and is still a recipe for disaster

[MissBrattified]

True and is still a recipe for disaster

Sometimes. I've seen family integrated both successfully and unsuccessfully. It's unfair to assume that having family on staff had anything to do with the present problems, or that it caused any problems whatsover.

[Michael Phelps]

Sometimes. I've seen family integrated both successfully and unsuccessfully. It's unfair to assume that having family on staff had anything to do with the present problems, or that it caused any problems whatsover.

Exactly. Nothing wrong with nepotism if it's deserved. It's when it's given undeservingly that problems arise.

[Truthseeker]

I do not personally know Bro. Black but have enjoyed hearing him preach through the years. That being said, I think the real problem "in the church" is that there is not enough marriage training? or teaching? whatever you want to call it. Women marry preachers many times, just because they are a preacher no matter what the man looks like, just for the prestige of being married to a preacher. Then the man gets this beautiful wife and if he does not know how to connect with her on an emotional level, their intimate life will be VERY minimal. Face it, men need sex. If he goes years without gettin it at home, he will find it somewhere. Too many of my friends have gotten divorced in the last 2 years, leaving 20+ years of marriage and their "preacher" husbands, either he cheated or her.

He wants sex, but doesn't know how to give his wife the emotional aspect to make her want it, and since he doesn't fulfill her emotionally she looks for another man to fulfill her in that manner.

Men are DUMB in most marriages, they think it's all about the mechanics, when in reality it's about that emotional connection.

I'm glad all the women got together. :)

[Truthseeker]

I am familiar with the church. I even visited a few times over the years. From what I understand TB's whole family was employed at the church. TB was on the payroll, as well as his wife, two sons-in-law, daughter, and son. Nepotism anyone?

Not a good sign. Family run business ok outside the church but not in it.

[LooneyLucy]

Not a good sign. Family run business ok outside the church but not in it.

:highfive

[Monterrey]

Would rather have my daughter be my secretary then another woman, no room for accusations.

Many smaller churches run the same way, many out of necessity.

Larger churches..... guess their business.

[MissBrattified]

I'm not so sure the Bible is against families working together. Look at the priesthood in the Old Testament...talk about "nepotism."

Family members are often more dependable and more trusted. For those reasons, they can be preferable over someone who is even more qualified. I agree that it can be done badly, but it can also work well. There are plenty of churches that have non-family members in leadership and their leadership structure is no better. It really depends on the character of the senior pastor[s] or elders and how they handle the structure as a whole.

[Truthseeker]

we are all the priesthood now so that is a poor comparison.

[MissBrattified]

we are all the priesthood now so that is a poor comparison.

If that is true, and we are all on equal ground, then the reverse could be stated: family members shouldn't be frozen out of church leadership simply because they are related by blood.

[Truthseeker]

Of course, its all always the will of God son or son in law takes over church when fathers done.

[Truthseeker]

If that is true, and we are all on equal ground, then the reverse could be stated: family members shouldn't be frozen out of church leadership simply because they are related by blood.

maybe have a rotation? I knew of church that asst pastor was rotated.

[Truthseeker]

Not saying family member cant be used, but obvious when family runned.

[Monterrey]

Of course, its all always the will of God son or son in law takes over church when fathers done.

Could be, you jealous?

If you don't like it you could always leave and find another church...

Why should it not be that way if the church agrees?

[Monterrey]

maybe have a rotation? I knew of church that ass pastor was rotated.

That's the problem, too many ass pastors!:smack

[CC1]

Could be, you jealous?

If you don't like it you could always leave and find another church...

Why should it not be that way if the church agrees?

There may be instances where the son or son in law is the right person to take over a church but from my observation a high percentage of the time it is the pastor's will, not God's.

The person taking over a church should be the absolute best person for the job. Not a person who gets it because he is marginally ok for the job but whose main qualificcation is being a blood relative or a relative by marriage to the current pastor.

The harsh reality is that more times than not the succession plan is based on ego, greed, and control rather than what is best for the church.

[Truthseeker]

That's the problem, too many ass pastors!:smack

oops lol. assT!

[Monterrey]

oops lol. assT!

Bwahahaahahhaa

Done it myself, could resist...

No harm done!:happydance

[Truthseeker]

There may be instances where the son or son in law is the right person to take over a church but from my observation a high percentage of the time it is the pastor's will, not God's.

The person taking over a church should be the absolute best person for the job. Not a person who gets it because he is marginally ok for the job but whose main qualificcation is being a blood relative or a relative by marriage to the current pastor.

The harsh reality is that more times than not the succession plan is based on ego, greed, and control rather than what is best for the church.

I think most of the time its groomed for it, go to keep it in the family.

[Michael Phelps]

Not a good sign. Family run business ok outside the church but not in it.

I'd be curious to hear your justification for this statement.

What's the difference?

[Truthseeker]

I'd be curious to hear your justification for this statement.

What's the difference?

Really?

[Revsidebyside]

Discussion can be more focused on destruction than construction.
There are many speculating on a church and minister they do not know.

The family that was on staff at TPC was among many that were on staff. TPC has been blessed with many ministers through the years on staff. Currently he did have 2 son-n-laws on staff and one daughter that was on staff.

There were 2 other secretaries, children's pastor, music director and etc that were not family.

[rgcraig]

I'd be curious to hear your justification for this statement.

What's the difference?

I think one glaring difference is the church shouldn't be a business.

[Truthseeker]

I think one glaring difference is the church shouldn't be a business.

right, suppose to made of people with callings and gifts, not same last name.

[LooneyLucy]

There may be instances where the son or son in law is the right person to take over a church but from my observation a high percentage of the time it is the pastor's will, not God's.

The person taking over a church should be the absolute best person for the job. Not a person who gets it because he is marginally ok for the job but whose main qualificcation is being a blood relative or a relative by marriage to the current pastor.

The harsh reality is that more times than not the succession plan is based on ego, greed, and control rather than what is best for the church.

Agreed, and many times that "son" was born with a silver spoon in his mouth and has never been through nothin', thus he cannot even relate to the hurting ones in the pew.

[Michael Phelps]

Really?

Absolutely.

[Monterrey]

Agreed, and many times that "son" was born with a silver spoon in his mouth and has never been through nothin', thus he cannot even relate to the hurting ones in the pew.

WOW!!!

Talk about preconceived ideas.....

That is as wrong as wrong could be.

MANY?

Put "A few" in there would be more like the truth.

Growing up in a pastors home is tough.

Always on display, always be examined with a fine toothed comb...

That preachers kids even make it is a miracle with hardness like you exhibit being thrown against them.

[Michael Phelps]

WOW!!!

Talk about preconceived ideas.....

That is as wrong as wrong could be.

MANY?

Put "A few" in there would be more like the truth.

Growing up in a pastors home is tough.

Always on display, always be examined with a fine toothed comb...

That preachers kids even make it is a miracle with hardness like you exhibit being thrown against them.

:highfive

[HolyFire]

WOW!!!

Talk about preconceived ideas.....

That is as wrong as wrong could be.

MANY?

Put "A few" in there would be more like the truth.

Growing up in a pastors home is tough.



Always on display, always be examined with a fine toothed comb...

That preachers kids even make it is a miracle with hardness like you exhibit being thrown against them.

I 2nd this

[Michael Phelps]

I think one glaring difference is the church shouldn't be a business.

Not to be argumentative, but the church absolutely is a business. The fact that many don't run it that way is the main reason pastors wind up in financial trouble.

A true business should keep in line with all accounting policies, and major decisions that affect the financial, social, and or spiritual welfare of the church should be discussed among all stakeholders, or in this case, tithe payers.

I do agree that a son or daughter should not be placed in a position of authority just because they are family, but also hold the position that they should not be EXCLUDED because they are family. There are times when the pastor's children shares the pastor's burden more than any outsider, and that son or daughter is absolutely the right person to be in a ministry role.

The Bible is replete with examples of the good and bad of children succeeding parents in ministry roles, so you can't take a broad brush to either position.

My experience has been that when it is right for a sibling to follow a parent into a ministry role, the congregation feels it and supports it.

In that way, it's extremly similar to a business. A business owner wants to put the person in to succeed them who will share the same passion and dedication that started the business in the first place.

[HolyFire]

Discussion can be more focused on destruction than construction.
There are many speculating on a church and minister they do not know.

The family that was on staff at TPC was among many that were on staff. TPC has been blessed with many ministers through the years on staff. Currently he did have 2 son-n-laws on staff and one daughter that was on staff.

There were 2 other secretaries, children's pastor, music director and etc that were not family.

People forget Bro. Trimble was Asst. for a while - not a family member.

[Truthseeker]

WOW!!!

Talk about preconceived ideas.....

That is as wrong as wrong could be.

MANY?

Put "A few" in there would be more like the truth.

Growing up in a pastors home is tough.

Always on display, always be examined with a fine toothed comb...

That preachers kids even make it is a miracle with hardness like you exhibit being thrown against them.

There are so very good PK kids.

[Truthseeker]

Not to be argumentative, but the church absolutely is a business. The fact that many don't run it that way is the main reason pastors wind up in financial trouble.

A true business should keep in line with all accounting policies, and major decisions that affect the financial, social, and or spiritual welfare of the church should be discussed among all stakeholders, or in this case, tithe payers.

I do agree that a son or daughter should not be placed in a position of authority just because they are family, but also hold the position that they should not be EXCLUDED because they are family. There are times when the pastor's children shares the pastor's burden more than any outsider, and that son or daughter is absolutely the right person to be in a ministry role.

The Bible is replete with examples of the good and bad of children succeeding parents in ministry roles, so you can't take a broad brush to either position.

My experience has been that when it is right for a sibling to follow a parent into a ministry role, the congregation feels it and supports it.

In that way, it's extremly similar to a business. A business owner wants to put the person in to succeed them who will share the same passion and dedication that started the business in the first place.

This confirms issues with modern one man ministry vs biblical.

[rgcraig]

Not to be argumentative, but the church absolutely is a business. The fact that many don't run it that way is the main reason pastors wind up in financial trouble.

A true business should keep in line with all accounting policies, and major decisions that affect the financial, social, and or spiritual welfare of the church should be discussed among all stakeholders, or in this case, tithe payers.

I do agree that a son or daughter should not be placed in a position of authority just because they are family, but also hold the position that they should not be EXCLUDED because they are family. There are times when the pastor's children shares the pastor's burden more than any outsider, and that son or daughter is absolutely the right person to be in a ministry role.

The Bible is replete with examples of the good and bad of children succeeding parents in ministry roles, so you can't take a broad brush to either position.

My experience has been that when it is right for a sibling to follow a parent into a ministry role, the congregation feels it and supports it.

In that way, it's extremly similar to a business. A business owner wants to put the person in to succeed them who will share the same passion and dedication that started the business in the first place.

I do agree many churches wouldn't have the problems they have if they did run it like you are explaining. Accountability!

[Michael Phelps]

This confirms issues with modern one man ministry vs biblical.

Explain......what do you feel the Biblical model for a church is?

[OnTheFritz]

Not to be argumentative, but the church absolutely is a business. The fact that many don't run it that way is the main reason pastors wind up in financial trouble.

A true business should keep in line with all accounting policies, and major decisions that affect the financial, social, and or spiritual welfare of the church should be discussed among all stakeholders, or in this case, tithe payers.

I do agree that a son or daughter should not be placed in a position of authority just because they are family, but also hold the position that they should not be EXCLUDED because they are family. There are times when the pastor's children shares the pastor's burden more than any outsider, and that son or daughter is absolutely the right person to be in a ministry role.

The Bible is replete with examples of the good and bad of children succeeding parents in ministry roles, so you can't take a broad brush to either position.

My experience has been that when it is right for a sibling to follow a parent into a ministry role, the congregation feels it and supports it.

In that way, it's extremly similar to a business. A business owner wants to put the person in to succeed them who will share the same passion and dedication that started the business in the first place.

Truth!

[Truthseeker]

Explain......what do you feel the Biblical model for a church is?

really?

[HolyFire]

True and is still a recipe for disaster

Most of the time, but they were God called and good people. The son-in-law started an inner city church, I believe. It doesnt get more ghetto than inner city Memphis.

[Truthseeker]

J/K



I believe its clear local church was runned by elderS/overseerS?

[Michael Phelps]

J/K



I believe its clear local church was runned by elderS/overseerS?

Ok, fair enough....but, it was still a business, wasn't it? I mean, they kept track of donations, used the finances to reach the lost, provide food for the hungry, etc.

And, I don't see anywhere in scripture where it was forbidden for them to place family members in positions of authority in the church.

That's my point. There are pastors who run the church like a personal income source, and that's wrong. No accountability creates a recipe for disaster.

However, having the church run as a business with overseers (deacons, board members, etc.) and stakeholders (tithepayers) holds pretty close to the Biblical model, as I see it.

[rgcraig]

Ok, fair enough....but, it was still a business, wasn't it? I mean, they kept track of donations, used the finances to reach the lost, provide food for the hungry, etc.

And, I don't see anywhere in scripture where it was forbidden for them to place family members in positions of authority in the church.

That's my point. There are pastors who run the church like a personal income source, and that's wrong. No accountability creates a recipe for disaster.

However, having the church run as a business with overseers (deacons, board members, etc.) and stakeholders (tithepayers) holds pretty close to the Biblical model, as I see it.

That's where I was disagreeing. Running a church to make a profit and pass that down to your son is wrong.

[LooneyLucy]

WOW!!!

Talk about preconceived ideas.....

That is as wrong as wrong could be.

MANY?

Put "A few" in there would be more like the truth.

Growing up in a pastors home is tough.

Always on display, always be examined with a fine toothed comb...

That preachers kids even make it is a miracle with hardness like you exhibit being thrown against them.

I'm guessing you're a youngin. I could make a huge long list of names. There are MANY!!!! Daddy or grandpa carved out the church and the kids now live in HIGH style and always have.

[Truthseeker]

Ok, fair enough....but, it was still a business, wasn't it? I mean, they kept track of donations, used the finances to reach the lost, provide food for the hungry, etc.

And, I don't see anywhere in scripture where it was forbidden for them to place family members in positions of authority in the church.

That's my point. There are pastors who run the church like a personal income source, and that's wrong. No accountability creates a recipe for disaster.

However, having the church run as a business with overseers (deacons, board members, etc.) and stakeholders (tithepayers) holds pretty close to the Biblical model, as I see it.

I dont think it was runned with mindset like today. I wasn't saying family can't be in leadership but alot of times its just plain family affair. Its just the way it is.

[LooneyLucy]

I do agree many churches wouldn't have the problems they have if they did run it like you are explaining. Accountability!

I personally know a "prominent" family who ran it as a business alright. The church had credit cards to pay for EVERYTHING for them, including the grandson's girlfriend's $5,000.00 engagement ring.

[LooneyLucy]

I dont think was runned with mindset like today. I wasn't saying family can't be in leadership but alot of times its just plain family affair. Its just the way it is.

And I am not totally against it, so long as it is GOD'S will and not just mans.

[MissBrattified]

Agreed, and many times that "son" was born with a silver spoon in his mouth and has never been through nothin', thus he cannot even relate to the hurting ones in the pew.

Um. You really can't possibly know this. Growing up as a PK I experienced a lot of hurts that those in the pew can't identify with--however, most people have experienced hurt in general and we can all commiserate at that level.

[MissBrattified]

Not to be argumentative, but the church absolutely is a business. The fact that many don't run it that way is the main reason pastors wind up in financial trouble.

A true business should keep in line with all accounting policies, and major decisions that affect the financial, social, and or spiritual welfare of the church should be discussed among all stakeholders, or in this case, tithe payers.

I do agree that a son or daughter should not be placed in a position of authority just because they are family, but also hold the position that they should not be EXCLUDED because they are family. There are times when the pastor's children shares the pastor's burden more than any outsider, and that son or daughter is absolutely the right person to be in a ministry role.

The Bible is replete with examples of the good and bad of children succeeding parents in ministry roles, so you can't take a broad brush to either position.

My experience has been that when it is right for a sibling to follow a parent into a ministry role, the congregation feels it and supports it.

In that way, it's extremly similar to a business. A business owner wants to put the person in to succeed them who will share the same passion and dedication that started the business in the first place.

Great post! :thumbsup

[Truthseeker]

And I am not totally against it, so long as it is GOD'S will and not just mans.

No, as long as stockholders ok with it. :icecream

[The Lemon]

I suppose i see the similarity between business structure in terms of accountability and fiscal responsibility and the church...where I disagree is modeling a church after secular business practices. Business do provide goods and services for a price, and they exist to do one thing...make a profit.

I am not even going to get into the differences between Tithes and free will offerings, as that has been beaten to death. We should be responsible to give both to one another and to those who honor is due...that said, there is a very fine line between building Gods kingdom and building a personal kingdom using donations from hard working people to live off of, but I digress.

[LooneyLucy]

I suppose i see the similarity between business structure in terms of accountability and fiscal responsibility and the church...where I disagree is modeling a church after secular business practices. Business do provide goods and services for a price, and they exist to do one thing...make a profit.

I am not even going to get into the differences between Tithes and free will offerings, as that has been beaten to death. We should be responsible to give both to one another and to those who honor is due...that said, there is a very fine line between building Gods kingdom and building a personal kingdom using donations from hard working people to live off of, but I digress.

:highfive

[MissBrattified]

I suppose i see the similarity between business structure in terms of accountability and fiscal responsibility and the church...where I disagree is modeling a church after secular business practices. Business do provide goods and services for a price, and they exist to do one thing...make a profit.

I am not even going to get into the differences between Tithes and free will offerings, as that has been beaten to death. We should be responsible to give both to one another and to those who honor is due...that said, there is a very fine line between building Gods kingdom and building a personal kingdom using donations from hard working people to live off of, but I digress.

I agree with you from the point of view that a church should be non-profit, although even non-profit organizations pay out salaries to employees.

This thread is going off on a tangent, but I will say this: some pastors accumulate wealth because they take too much of what is given; others accumulate wealth because they are good stewards of what they are given and/or because they have earned money from private efforts. Those who fall into the latter category should be respected for their stewardship, not criticized for it.

Our pastor takes a far-too-modest-salary (IMO) and has to supplement by working outside jobs. I really dislike that, because I know he would be more productive for the church and community if he didn't have to work the extra jobs. When a church asks a pastor to come and work for them, I don't see the problem with the church offering compensation. A pastor is ultimately still a man who needs to provide for his family, first and foremost. I fail to see how working for the church and earning a living should be mutually exclusive.

[Cindy]

I find these conversations distasteful. personally. Especially if I don't know the people involved. Even then it hurts my heart that Pastors or Saints fall from grace, and are publicly talked about. I will pray for all involved, but I don't need to know why this Pastor resigned.

[tv1a]

Too many people are concerned about the garbage in someone else's backyard they forget they have junk in their trunk.

I find these conversations distasteful. personally. Especially if I don't know the people involved. Even then it hurts my heart that Pastors or Saints fall from grace, and are publicly talked about. I will pray for all involved, but I don't need to know why this Pastor resigned.

[endtimer]

I agree with you from the point of view that a church should be non-profit, although even non-profit organizations pay out salaries to employees.

This thread is going off on a tangent, but I will say this: some pastors accumulate wealth because they take too much of what is given; others accumulate wealth because they are good stewards of what they are given and/or because they have earned money from private efforts. Those who fall into the latter category should be respected for their stewardship, not criticized for it.

Our pastor takes a far-too-modest-salary (IMO) and has to supplement by working outside jobs. I really dislike that, because I know he would be more productive for the church and community if he didn't have to work the extra jobs. When a church asks a pastor to come and work for them, I don't see the problem with the church offering compensation. A pastor is ultimately still a man who needs to provide for his family, first and foremost. I fail to see how working for the church and earning a living should be mutually exclusive.
http://i637.photobucket.com/albums/uu100/scalkins/facebook-like-buton1.png

[Dordrecht]

Threads like this should be deleted right from the start.
I find this disgusting.

[Bishop Cleatus]

Threads like this should be deleted right from the start.
I find this disgusting.

Which part, exactly?

[houston]

That's the problem, too many ass pastors!:smack

ROFLOL! God uses whom He will.

[houston]

I'm guessing you're a youngin. I could make a huge long list of names. There are MANY!!!! Daddy or grandpa carved out the church and the kids now live in HIGH style and always have.

He is a youngin. Daddy was a successful indy missionary to Meshico. He inherited the adobe mission building and several servants.

[houston]

...they have junk in their trunk.



BWAHAHAHAHA!

Honkey tonk badonka donk.

[HolyFire]

I find these conversations distasteful. personally. Especially if I don't know the people involved. Even then it hurts my heart that Pastors or Saints fall from grace, and are publicly talked about. I will pray for all involved, but I don't need to know why this Pastor resigned.

I've posted why, but it breaks my heart as well. I have longtime friends at that church.

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

Having taken time to read the 17 pages of this thread, I do proclaim that we should pray for these people. However, at least one post noted that the evangelist who preached the "Holy Magic Hair" doctrine preached numerous times at that church. How many UPCI folks believe this doctrine? Is it false doctrine? I believe in a woman having long hair. Forgive me for using the term "Holy Magic Hair," but I am not sure what else to call it. Is this a generally accepted doctrine in the UPCI? I am curious. Not meaning to be harsh.

[MissBrattified]

Having taken time to read the 17 pages of this thread, I do proclaim that we should pray for these people. However, at least one post noted that the evangelist who preached the "Holy Magic Hair" doctrine preached numerous times at that church. How many UPCI folks believe this doctrine? Is it false doctrine? I believe in a woman having long hair. Forgive me for using the term "Holy Magic Hair," but I am not sure what else to call it. Is this a generally accepted doctrine in the UPCI? I am curious. Not meaning to be harsh.

Do a search on the forum. There are a lot of threads devoted to the subject. You can read about it and then post on the threads to bring the subject back up (if you want).

"Holy Magic Hair" is a term coined by those outside the belief; not those who embrace it.

[Bishop Cleatus]

Do a search on the forum. There are a lot of threads devoted to the subject. You can read about it and then post on the threads to bring the subject back up (if you want).

"Holy Magic Hair" is a term coined by those outside the belief; not those who embrace it.

Not to be confused with Unholy Bobbed Hair found on some witches and most soccer moms. Just so you're clear when doing your search.

[tv1a]

There is nothing like a preacher's downfall to bring out the Monday morning quarterbacks and the webcam prophets. Whatever the pastor did wrong, as soon as he repented, God forgave him. God didn't get together with holy trinity and analyze the pastor's indiscretions.

If our goal is to be like Jesus, a good place to start is intercede for the city and those affected by the abrupt departure. Pray the collateral damage is minimal, if at all.

Threads like this should be deleted right from the start.
I find this disgusting.

[Truthseeker]

There is nothing like a preacher's downfall to bring out the Monday morning quarterbacks and the webcam prophets. Whatever the pastor did wrong, as soon as he repented, God forgave him. God didn't get together with holy trinity and analyze the pastor's indiscretions.

If our goal is to be like Jesus, a good place to start is intercede for the city and those affected by the abrupt departure. Pray the collateral damage is minimal, if at all.

True,obviously man has enough respect to step down if he thought it was right to do so.

[CC1]

True,obviously man has enough respect to step down if he thought it was right to do so.

What made you think he did it voluntarily?

[tv1a]

You couldn't leave it alone? lol

What made you think he did it voluntarily?

[deacon blues]

True, however, the Bible says for men to love their wives as Christ loved the church. In most instances if the man does this, everything else falls into place, unless the woman is just a spoiled brat or has mental problems.

The same scripture Eph 5:33 says the woman must respect her husband. "Love and Respect" by Eggerich is one of the best books on understanding the differences between men and women I've ever read. Unconditional love is commanded to men, unconditional respect is commanded to women. It takes both parties being obedient to the commands God gives them.

[LooneyLucy]

The same scripture Eph 5:33 says the woman must respect her husband. "Love and Respect" by Eggerich is one of the best books on understanding the differences between men and women I've ever read. Unconditional love is commanded to men, unconditional respect is commanded to women. It takes both parties being obedient to the commands God gives them.

But it ALL begins with the MAN.

[deacon blues]

I lived in the Memphis area for a decade, this hurts. Grey Rd. is no more (used to run 350+), the W. Memphis church has left the UPCI (I believe, I know they are ultra-libs compared to my decade there when they were mods) and now this. Terry Black was one of those men you could follow after as he followed Christ. He was a humble man, one who wasn't covetous or heavy handed or unmerciful.

This is hard for me, the area I prayed for so often in a spiritual storm. TPC will survive and God will have a church.

Memphis is full of many good, godly, faithful Christians. This situation is sad as well as the Grey Road situation, but Jesus has plenty of witnesses and churches that preach Christ and Him crucified and the truth will keep marching on. Pray for the fallen, consider yourself lest you fall, do justly, love mercy and walk humbly with your God!

[Jay]

Does anyone on here know what actually happened, because I see assertions made with no links or messages. I read the wiki link, but found it to be less than helpful. I am going to be content to wait and find out from others what happened with Bro. Black.

[Raven]

Sometimes the "connection" is not made (or not consistant) because they are out of balance in their life.

I know of some 20+ year marriages that have failed - both ministers and others, one thing I noticed in the ministry was burnout - when a person gives constantly in ministry and has nothing left for the home...guess what suffers??

I can't tell you how many times I have heard of ministers wives who are depressed, and despise not only their respective role in ministry, but also their husband and even the church - the same can be true of the husband. When there is no "coming together" and no deep emotional connection between spouses...there is a great storm coming..PERIOD.

No wonder Paul said he would prefer folks to be like him. After all, when you marry, a husbands duty is to please his wife, and the wife her husband....you can't do this as an absentee husband / wife / or father. The way we "do church" is half the problem in my opinion.. and that goes from the top down. Here is a noval idea:

1. Stop running a Church like a profit center
2. Make a living using skills and education outside the ministry - thus preventing the survival temptation to live off of people's free will generosity
3. Don't train saints to expect you to be there at every bekon call
4. Set the stage for personal growth and accountability and quit coddling saints for 30 years on the pew
5. Stay out of the politics in organized religion...politics is bad regardless of where it is
6. Don't play to the crowd and to your peer group...be you and be honest
7. Stick to principle and drop tradition where you can
8. Don't try to protect your image...just be a Christian
9. Preach the truth in love
10. Prefer your wife and children over other people, organizations, expectations.


There...

Excellent advice!!!

[Monterrey]

I'm guessing you're a youngin. I could make a huge long list of names. There are MANY!!!! Daddy or grandpa carved out the church and the kids now live in HIGH style and always have.

This made my day!!!!

I am a grey haired grandpa and you called me young!

Do I slip you an extra five or some geratol?

[Monterrey]

Granny!

[Tlswift2009]

Amen sister. I know this Pastor as a friend, but I ask no questions; I just pray for the church and pastor.

[deacon blues]

But it ALL begins with the MAN.

Actually is ALL begins with God.

The problem is too many believe in the 50/50 myth, as in "marriage is a 50/50 proposition." Actually marriage is an ALL IN proposition. Each partner should give 100%, regardless of what the other does. Peter even writes "Wives, in the same way submit yourselves to your own husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives." So when a husband isn't leading the way, the command is still tomb respectful, and in so doing the husband may be won over.

[tv1a]

If you don't KNOW what happened by now, then you don't need to know.

Does anyone on here know what actually happened, because I see assertions made with no links or messages. I read the wiki link, but found it to be less than helpful. I am going to be content to wait and find out from others what happened with Bro. Black.

[Michael Phelps]

But it ALL begins with the MAN.

Now you are just perpetuating the stereotype that the man is the boss, and the woman should just follow his lead. This is prominent in the Pentecostal churches, and it's an easy excuse for women.....if things aren't going well, it's the man's fault. If the marriage is in trouble, it's the man's fault. It's the reverse "Garden of Eden" excuse.......the man, he made me do it!

[LooneyLucy]

Actually is ALL begins with God.

The problem is too many believe in the 50/50 myth, as in "marriage is a 50/50 proposition." Actually marriage is an ALL IN proposition. Each partner should give 100%, regardless of what the other does. Peter even writes "Wives, in the same way submit yourselves to your own husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives." So when a husband isn't leading the way, the command is still tomb respectful, and in so doing the husband may be won over.

Even in the garden, the WOMAN fell first, but God blamed the MAN. When you are married to a saved man, it is HIS responsibility to love his wife the Bible way, then the rest will fall in place. Like one pastor repeatedly says, "I have NEVER seen a woman unwillingly to submit to a man who truly loves her as Christ loved the church and gave himself for it."

[deacon blues]

Even in the garden, the WOMAN fell first, but God blamed the MAN. When you are married to a saved man, it is HIS responsibility to love his wife the Bible way, then the rest will fall in place. Like one pastor repeatedly says, "I have NEVER seen a woman unwillingly to submit to a man who truly loves her as Christ loved the church and gave himself for it."

I don't disagree, albeit I believe each person must take responsibility for what they are commanded to do. Most men, if treated with respect, will react in loving ways. Most women, of treated lovingly, will react in respectful ways. It's a cycle that perpetuates itself positively. No man should say that because his wife isnt respectful, he isn't going to be loving. No woman should say because her husband isnt loving she isnt going to be respectful.

It's commanded because love is what a woman craves and desires. Contrary to what most people think, men crave and desire respect above love.

[Michael Phelps]

I don't disagree, albeit I believe each person must take responsibility for what they are commanded to do. Most men, if treated with respect, will react in loving ways. Most women, of treated lovingly, will react in respectful ways. It's a cycle that perpetuates itself positively. No man should say that because his wife isnt respectful, he isn't going to be loving. No woman should say because her husband isnt loving she isnt going to be respectful.

It's commanded because love is what a woman craves and desires. Contrary to what most people think, men crave and desire respect above love.

DB, I agree with you, but I think we're fighting a losing battle here - we're MEN! :highfive

[LooneyLucy]

DB, I agree with you, but I think we're fighting a losing battle here - we're MEN! :highfive

:heeheehee

[returnman]

Wasn't there an audio byte of the resignation on here yesterday? Is it still on this thread?

[Truthseeker]

Even in the garden, the WOMAN fell first, but God blamed the MAN. When you are married to a saved man, it is HIS responsibility to love his wife the Bible way, then the rest will fall in place. Like one pastor repeatedly says, "I have NEVER seen a woman unwillingly to submit to a man who truly loves her as Christ loved the church and gave himself for it."

So does a man only have to love his wife if she is submissive?

[Truthseeker]

The same scripture Eph 5:33 says the woman must respect her husband. "Love and Respect" by Eggerich is one of the best books on understanding the differences between men and women I've ever read. Unconditional love is commanded to men, unconditional respect is commanded to women. It takes both parties being obedient to the commands God gives them.

Amen.

[Monterrey]

Ongoing affair over 4 years.

The news from Lake Woe be gone.

[Chateau d'If]

Ongoing affair over 4 years.

The news from Lake Woe be gone.

Unreal. This is a man that preached at General Conference within that time frame.

[Monterrey]

Unreal. This is a man that preached at General Conference within that time frame.

That is what crossed my mind when told!

Somebody was asleep at the wheel!

[Chateau d'If]

That is what crossed my mind when told!

Somebody was asleep at the wheel!

I wish I had the audio. It was at Louisville, I believe, and he preached angry.

[mizpeh]

Ongoing affair over 4 years.

The news from Lake Woe be gone.

Do you have a link? What is Lake Woe be gone?

[Praxeas]

Most of the time, but they were God called and good people. The son-in-law started an inner city church, I believe. It doesnt get more ghetto than inner city Memphis.
All Christians are God called and good people. Why limit these positions to family? God called or not it's still a recipe for disaster

[Monterrey]

Do you have a link? What is Lake Woe be gone?

lake Woe Be Gone is just an expression.

There is no link, this is coming from ministerial friends close to the situation.

I am not rejoicing, this is sad. Both for the man's family and for the Church.

[Timmy]

All Christians are God called and good people. Why limit these positions to family? God called or not it's still a recipe for disaster

:blink

[OnTheFritz]

:blink

Well, he didn't say all those professing to be Christians...

[Praxeas]

Well, he didn't say all those professing to be Christians...

Right

[mizpeh]

lake Woe Be Gone is just an expression.

There is no link, this is coming from ministerial friends close to the situation.

I am not rejoicing, this is sad. Both for the man's family and for the Church.Very sad. I pray he gets his relationship right with God and his family.

[Praxeas]

Why this kind of stuff upsets people is these men were seemingly living double lives...or rather they were living a lie...and for years

[LooneyLucy]

Why this kind of stuff upsets people is these men were seemingly living double lives...or rather they were living a lie...and for years

I disagree. If you go to church and have a weakness you continually fall in, are you then a hypocrite??? or living a lie???? NO, you are still striving. If we step out of the fight, we lose. I am a true believer that people don't need to STOP going to church just because they have a weakness, but need to keep going because they never know when that right moment will come and they will get victory.

[houston]

I disagree. If you go to church and have a weakness you continually fall in, are you then a hypocrite??? or living a lie???? NO, you are still striving. If we step out of the fight, we lose. I am a true believer that people don't need to STOP going to church just because they have a weakness, but need to keep going because they never know when that right moment will come and they will get victory.

No. A bishop is supposed to be above reproach, not one who is struggling with sin.

[LooneyLucy]

No. A bishop is supposed to be above reproach, not one who is struggling with sin.

There isn't a PERFECT person on this planet. The ONE who was, was nailed to a tree.

[Praxeas]

I disagree. If you go to church and have a weakness you continually fall in, are you then a hypocrite??? or living a lie???? NO, you are still striving. If we step out of the fight, we lose. I am a true believer that people don't need to STOP going to church just because they have a weakness, but need to keep going because they never know when that right moment will come and they will get victory.
First a weakness is something you fight or deal with.

A FOUR YEAR affair, cheating on your wife is something one gave into 4 years and kept it up all while standing behind the pulpit as if nothing is amiss and preaching against things like adultery
\
I was talking about WHY people are upset. Nobody said they had to stop going to church

[Praxeas]

I disagree. If you go to church and have a weakness you continually fall in, are you then a hypocrite??? or living a lie???? NO, you are still striving. If we step out of the fight, we lose. I am a true believer that people don't need to STOP going to church just because they have a weakness, but need to keep going because they never know when that right moment will come and they will get victory.
So now that you disagree for why I believe people get upset over finding out their pastor had a 4 year affair...why do you believe people get upset?

[ForeverBlessed]

I disagree. If you go to church and have a weakness you continually fall in, are you then a hypocrite??? or living a lie???? NO, you are still striving. If we step out of the fight, we lose. I am a true believer that people don't need to STOP going to church just because they have a weakness, but need to keep going because they never know when that right moment will come and they will get victory.

Adultry is more than a weakness. You can have weaknesses, we all do. When you cross the line to act upon that weakness, and sin, it is time to repent. Flee the situation and get help, not hide and continue!

If you continue in that sin, God help you, especially when you are in leadership. Sorry, no excuse for that failure to continue. Both parties had to deliberately continue in a relationship, and both had to hide that relationship, being deceitful to family and others. It is wrong.

I feel for that family, the pain they are going through as they have been betrayed by the one who was supposed to be leading not only their family, but the congregation.

[LooneyLucy]

First a weakness is something you fight or deal with.

A FOUR YEAR affair, cheating on your wife is something one gave into 4 years and kept it up all while standing behind the pulpit as if nothing is amiss and preaching against things like adultery
\
I was talking about WHY people are upset. Nobody said they had to stop going to church

Do you have any sin in your life???????????????????? Dont' Answer. Pastor's AREN'T perfect!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Every pastor I have sat under, I can tell you about sins in their life, from the way they treat people to they way they live lavish lifestyles and on and on. Sin is sin!!! It just so happened this man's "secret" one came out. Other pastor's steal from their churches. I will NOT throw this man under the bus. HE IS A HUMAN!!

[Truthseeker]

Do you have any sin in your life???????????????????? Dont' Answer. Pastor's AREN'T perfect!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Every pastor I have sat under, I can tell you about sins in their life, from the way they treat people to they way they live lavish lifestyles and on and on. Sin is sin!!! It just so happened this man's "secret" one came out. Other pastor's steal from their churches. I will NOT throw this man under the bus. HE IS A HUMAN!!

Have you read qualifications of a bishop in the bible?

[houston]

Have you read qualifications of a bishop in the bible?

Fall into sin continually, just keep attending church. -Paul

[LooneyLucy]

yes

[LooneyLucy]

Fall into sin continually, just keep attending church. -Paul

well, aren't you the pot calling the kettle black

[Praxeas]

Do you have any sin in your life???????????????????? Dont' Answer. Pastor's AREN'T perfect!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Every pastor I have sat under, I can tell you about sins in their life, from the way they treat people to they way they live lavish lifestyles and on and on. Sin is sin!!! It just so happened this man's "secret" one came out. Other pastor's steal from their churches. I will NOT throw this man under the bus. HE IS A HUMAN!!
Im not a Pastor rofl. I don't stand in the pulpit carrying on a 4 year affair with another woman while preaching about sin in others lives and if I had I would not have waited four years

Again you are avoiding the ISSUE I addressed, which was WHY do people get so upset when this happens? So if that is not why then WHY do people get upset when they find out a "man of God" was having sex with someone other than his wife for four long years?

[houston]

well, aren't you the pot calling the kettle black

Sweetheart, my sins are not hidden behind a ministry. I am not one to sin and hold a position in ministry, and if I was a minister that fell into sin, I would step down.

[LooneyLucy]

So funny, you LIBS want to scream GRACE for everything but someone else's sin. BWAHAHAHA

[Praxeas]

So funny, you LIBS want to scream GRACE for everything but someone else's sin. BWAHAHAHALooney first of all we aren't all Libs

Second of all NOBODY said that pastors sins were not covered by grace. You are obfuscating the issue of WHY this upsets people, because he was in a position of authority and preaching against sin for 4 years while he was committing adultery

Now I will ask for the third time, if that is NOT why people get upset, what is the reason?

[Praxeas]

Some of these churches are the first ones to kick someone off the platform for cutting their hair while having sex for 4 years with another woman

That bothers people.

[LooneyLucy]

Looney first of all we aren't all Libs

Second of all NOBODY said that pastors sins were not covered by grace. You are obfuscating the issue of WHY this upsets people, because he was in a position of authority and preaching against sin for 4 years while he was committing adultery

Now I will ask for the third time, if that is NOT why people get upset, what is the reason?

People also stand and sing in church and MANY are in sin. Does that mean they are hypocrites? NO! The wrestling match goes on. Also, Sunday School teachers teach kids right from wrong yet go home and watch R rated movies and the such.

SIN IS SIN no matter who is doing it.

If people get angry or upset about this fall from grace, they need to examine their own lives and get off their high horse.

[LooneyLucy]

Some of these churches???????????

Are you trying to say this Memphis church was that way????????

YOU DON"T KNOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So stop trying to make it worse than it is.

[rgcraig]

Some of these churches are the first ones to kick someone off the platform for cutting their hair while having sex for 4 years with another woman

That bothers people.

Exactly.

[rgcraig]

Some of these churches???????????

Are you trying to say this Memphis church was that way????????

YOU DON"T KNOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So stop trying to make it worse than it is.

And, are you in the Memphis church?

[Praxeas]

People also stand and sing in church and MANY are in sin. Does that mean they are hypocrites?
Is that why people get upset when they find out someone that sings in church for four years and were cheating on their spouse?

You never did address the issue I raised. WHY DO PEOPLE GET UPSET?

NO! The wrestling match goes on. Also, Sunday School teachers teach kids right from wrong yet go home and watch R rated movies and the such.
They do? But the issue is SHOULD THEY?

SIN IS SIN no matter who is doing it.
That is not the issue. You keep obfuscating

If people get angry or upset about this fall from grace, they need to examine their own lives and get off their high horse.
No no no no...the issue is not about someone falling from grace. It's someone in a four year adulterous relationship and in a position of trust and authority preaching against sin while living in sin for 4 years.

This is not a case of someone struggling with an issue. We already settled that. We are talking about someone having an adulterous relationship with someone for FOUR YEARS.

BTW whose the lib? You sound more liberal than anyone here

[Cindy]

Wow, I am so confused.

[Praxeas]

Are you trying to say this Memphis church was that way????????

YOU DON"T KNOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So stop trying to make it worse than it is.
We were talking about generalities. This has happened a lot.

[LooneyLucy]

And, are you in the Memphis church?

None of your BEESWAX

[Praxeas]

You sure are defensive.

[LooneyLucy]

BTW whose the lib? You sound more liberal than anyone here[/QUOTE]

No, I'm not a lib, if I was I would be saying stuff like, the outward appearance doesn't matter, I can live anyway I want, I can talk about people anyway I like, If I want to drink I can, yada yada yada.

But WHAT I am is merciful and compassionate. Once a person has been through some stuff, they either become bitter or better. I choose to err on the side of mercy.

[LooneyLucy]

You sure are defensive.

Yes, I am defending my brother. I AM my brother's keeper.

[Timmy]

"God called or not it's still a recipe for disaster."

:blink

Cuz it sounds like something I'd say! :lol

[houston]

So funny, you LIBS want to scream GRACE for everything but someone else's sin. BWAHAHAHA

Who are you addressing?

[Praxeas]

No, I'm not a lib, if I was I would be saying stuff like, the outward appearance doesn't matter, I can live anyway I want, I can talk about people anyway I like, If I want to drink I can, yada yada yada.

But WHAT I am is merciful and compassionate. Once a person has been through some stuff, they either become bitter or better. I choose to err on the side of mercy.
The issue was NEVER mercy and compassion but WHY this sort of event affects people so much. For some reason you seemed to be really defensive and turning this into something it is not

[OnTheFritz]

BTW whose the lib? You sound more liberal than anyone here

No, I'm not a lib, if I was I would be saying stuff like, the outward appearance doesn't matter, I can live anyway I want, I can talk about people anyway I like, If I want to drink I can, yada yada yada.

But WHAT I am is merciful and compassionate. Once a person has been through some stuff, they either become bitter or better. I choose to err on the side of mercy.

Mercy is a great thing. What does it have to do with this discussion? Who's not being merciful?

So, your suggestion is .... What exactly? Let things go on as they are?

[houston]

No, I'm not a lib, if I was I would be saying stuff like, the outward appearance doesn't matter, I can live anyway I want, I can talk about people anyway I like, If I want to drink I can, yada yada yada.


This is one of the stupidest, yet most common misrepresentation of "liberals" that I have ever seen.

[rgcraig]

Here's a quote from Jeff Arnold that he said last night before his message at GC.

"What is morally wrong cannot be politically corrected"

[Praxeas]

BTW we don't even know for sure why TB stepped down. The point was when these things happen they hurt people that looked up to these men

[Levi]

I disagree. If you go to church and have a weakness you continually fall in, are you then a hypocrite??? or living a lie???? NO, you are still striving. If we step out of the fight, we lose. I am a true believer that people don't need to STOP going to church just because they have a weakness, but need to keep going because they never know when that right moment will come and they will get victory.

Amen me too! If I had quit going when I was battling with cigarettes, I would have never been delivered.

[Levi]

With that said I was not in a leadership role either.

[houston]

Her responses are insane. Her handle is a perfect fit.

No one is throwing him under the proverbial bus. The (my) issue is living in sin while continuing in leadership.

It is not a Lib v. Con debate. There are certain Biblical criteria that must be met for those in leadership. At the top of the list is "blameless," per the KJV.

[tex]

bishop terry black was and still is a great man! he is only human and any man can fall. no one really knows what went wrong and why that it did. i pray bro black and his family will continue on with the gospel and be accepted once again. he is an awesome preacher! the devil will devour like a roaring lion and will destroy who he can. we love you terry black !!! he should be forgiven.

[houston]

bishop terry black was and still is a great man! he is only human and any man can fall. no one really knows what went wrong and why that it did. i pray bro black and his family will continue on with the gospel and be accepted once again. he is an awesome preacher! the devil will devour like a roaring lion and will destroy who he can. we love you terry black !!! he should be forgiven.

Have you met Lucy?

[MissBrattified]

Lucy...dear...

Take a breath.

First of all, it IS perfectly reasonable and expected for people to be upset--for various reasons. Secondly, it is also reasonable to expect that Christians can live relatively free from sin. We all have flaws and weaknesses, but those flaws don't necessarily constitute sin, particularly on a moral level. Also, prolonged engagement with sin isn't quite the same as an occasional stumble.

I'm not sitting in judgment, because first and foremost, it isn't my place to do so. I'm neither an authority over nor a peer of Bro. Black. Even if I was, I would be hard-pressed to judge him in any way. Let those who are spiritual restore such a person in a spirit of meekness, considering themselves, lest they also be tempted.

And I say "restore" loosely, since we don't even know if these allegations are true. Hearsay from an anonymous forum member doesn't constitute solid evidence of anything.

I hope that Bro. Black's family and church can survive whatever this is.

Praxeas' original statement really had nothing objectionable in it:

Why this kind of stuff upsets people is these men were seemingly living double lives...or rather they were living a lie...and for years

Of course people will be upset if the man they look to for leadership spiritually and otherwise falls prey to some sin or weakness and they find out about it. Living a lie is subjective, since you can justify things to yourself or you can make up your mind to get past it and then you fail again...and again...and again. Also, I've known men who wanted to confess, but they didn't because it wasn't just about them--they didn't want to disappoint their families and their churches, and so they set themselves up for further failure by keeping sin in the dark. Confession is a scary thing; I completely understand that. On the flip side, it IS reasonable for people to interpret this as hypocrisy, if a preacher was preaching against something and practicing it at the same time. What else can you call it?

I will say one thing: There's not enough evidence to be calling things one way or the other on this thread.

[ttpaba]

I'd like to interject a reason why I think people get upset when they are the member of a congregation and it's discovered that there has been some serious immorality or err in judgement (any sin will do).
I think it's because we put our trust in pastors & leadership. We are aware they are human but in the same way you don't expect your spouse to have an affair, your child to be racist or your best friend to be a gossip but to a greater degree because they claim to have the congregation's best interest at heart. They claim to love us and pray for us. They counsel us and give us guidance. We look to them as an example of true Christianity but a level up since they have been called to lead!

Our home is having an ongoing conversation, here's the question we are batting around. Since pastors are human but held to a higher standard, at what level of sin are they to stay in the pulpit and handle the sin personally with God? When is the line crossed to be handled by a board, panel or other proper overseers? What line does a pastor have to cross to be "put out" of the pulpit or have a petition brought to the congregation?

[rgcraig]

I'd like to interject a reason why I think people get upset when they are the member of a congregation and it's discovered that there has been some serious immorality or err in judgement (any sin will do).
I think it's because we put our trust in pastors & leadership. We are aware they are human but in the same way you don't expect your spouse to have an affair, your child to be racist or your best friend to be a gossip but to a greater degree because they claim to have the congregation's best interest at heart. They claim to love us and pray for us. They counsel us and give us guidance. We look to them as an example of true Christianity but a level up since they have been called to lead!

Our home is having an ongoing conversation, here's the question we are batting around. Since pastors are human but held to a higher standard, at what level of sin are they to stay in the pulpit and handle the sin personally with God? When is the line crossed to be handled by a board, panel or other proper overseers? What line does a pastor have to cross to be "put out" of the pulpit or have a petition brought to the congregation?

One good place to start might be the Ten Commandments?

[rgcraig]

And btw, good post!

[Tsakali024]

This is very unfortunate for the church congregation, but serves to highlight the effects one man's actions can have on others. TB's two sons-in-law (one served as Youth Pastor, the other as Evangelism/Outreach Pastor) both resigned from the church.

[Sam]

No. A bishop is supposed to be above reproach, not one who is struggling with sin.

why would he be held to a higher standard than anyone else in the church. He is as human, flawed, and frail as anyone else. If he committed adultery on Saturday night and repented afterward when he stepped into the pulpit a few hours later on Sunday morning he had been forgiven and cleansed from all unrighteousness.

[rgcraig]

why would he be held to a higher standard than anyone else in the church. He is as human, flawed, and frail as anyone else. If he committed adultery on Saturday night and repented afterward when he stepped into the pulpit a few hours later on Sunday morning he had been forgiven and cleansed from all unrighteousness.

The key here is asking forgiveness.

[houston]

why would he be held to a higher standard than anyone else in the church. He is as human, flawed, and frail as anyone else. If he committed adultery on Saturday night and repented afterward when he stepped into the pulpit a few hours later on Sunday morning he had been forgiven and cleansed from all unrighteousness.

Because the bible says so...

[ttpaba]

@ SAM,,, This is why he should be held to a higher standard. Forgiven? Definitely! But on a pew under a wise elder to restore him back from whatever condition he is in, to have fallen into the snare of the devil. A bishop?, deacon?!!! Not until the repented soul is in the condition it should be in to lead a congregation again.
I Tim 3
1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;

5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.

11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.

12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

[ttpaba]

This is very unfortunate for the church congregation, but serves to highlight the effects one man's actions can have on others. TB's two sons-in-law (one served as Youth Pastor, the other as Evangelism/Outreach Pastor) both resigned from the church.

I'd like to add that the son in law that is/was the evangelism/outreach Pastor was so before he married TB's daughter.