A Picture of Grace from God's Point of View

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

ok, thanks, just doing my best here. Seems the problem with that argument is that 1) Christ is Named the Light in that passage, further emphasizing His spiritual nature, which is what must be understood in order to "accept Christ," and 2) Works are given here as the evidence. So yes, people who do evil--are judgemental, say--are judged (Judge not, lest you be judged).

19“This, then, is the judgment: The lightaq has come into the world,ar and people loved darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil. 20For everyone who practices wicked things hatesas the light and avoids it,at so that his deedsau may not be exposed. 21But anyone who lives byav the truth comes to the light, so that his worksaw may be shown to be accomplished by God.”ax

So, while i guess this is prolly frustrating for you, this passage also does not seem to be forwarding your opinion. I think you are going to be hard pressed to put Christ into your judgements; Christ is about forgiveness, even of the guilty. We get invited into condemnation of sin, or even what we perceive to be sin, not realizing that we lose Christ in the process.

This does not mean to condone sin, or indulge in sin, or allow sin in any way, but it does mean and require a change in focus. If anyone doubts this, just contemplate who it is that comes before God and mentions peoples' sins. satan is "the accuser," and he is who you follow when you are accusing. It is when you forgive that you are forgiven, over and above any spurious salvation experience that men may offer.

Sorry you are missing so much of what the bible says elsewhere and therefore failing to put all the accounts together to get the full truth.

Joh 3:17-18 KJV For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Jesus came not to CONDEMN because people were condemned already.

So when Jesus said they were already condemned, in your mind He is condemning them, because that is what you are doing with me. I claim the WORD already condemned people, and I am simply responding to that, As Jesus was, so they can be recovered. But they have to be told they're condemned already, because that is exactly what Jesus did. he said everyone who hates the truth is already condemned by the Word of God. So He came to not condemn, as that was unnecessary, but to give life, or recover them.

You are doing your best to pull out the part of not coming to condemn, and totally missing the context where that was stated in association with his claim THEY WERE ALREADY CONDEMNED.

Your version of Christ's purpose not only extracts and removes what he said about people already being condemned, but you also break context here:

Joh 12:47-48 KJV And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. (48) He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Your view makes no room for the entire context in those words.

You say you do not disregard sin but merely make a change of focus. But you invalidate that when you say the statement cannot be made that an entire religion whose holy book denies the death of Christ on the cross so much as existed, actually talking about Christ, and actually specifically teaching His death did not even occur, while Jesus Himself said that we could only be saved by looking to Jesus as being lifted up on the cross in the same manner Israel was saved by looking up at the serpent of brass erected on a pole.

So your words are evidence that you are forcing the bible to NOT say faith in the cross is necessary for salvation, and accuse those who claim otherwise are judges, when in reality others are only saying what Jesus said.... they're already condemned and we're not coming to condemn but point them to life. That entire PURPOSE of Jesus is twisted in your view.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

i am the one suggesting that you pick that cross up, Mike, although i said that to make a different point.

Oh forgive me. You do have a cross. the only cross you have is the one we carry, and condone the Islamic teaching in the Koran that says Jesus never died on the cross. So, the cross of Jesus is non-existent.

This is an example of cafeteria choice scripture belief.

In reality we pick our crosses up and FOLLOW HIM while He carried HIS! You effectively remove the Cross JESUS carried.

And the bible explains that carrying our crosses are denying ourselves by dying to self. So, pointing people to the bible's words that condemned them before Jesus came is not "not carrying the cross."

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Sorry

by all means, judge then; perhaps you will not be judged. Don't forgive; it may be that you will still be forgiven. Dwell on the sins of others, and accuse them, for perhaps you are sinless, and qualified to cast the first stone. The passage in John is talking about you, too, although we as Christians never seem to see ourselves in these, do we? We are The Administrators!

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Oh forgive me.

Everyone expects the Oneness Inquisition now, Mike. You are forgiven.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

by all means, judge then; perhaps you will not be judged.

It's not my place to judge and I haven't.

The word judged them already. Sorry, but the word says what the Word says, and you can try to justify yourself in saying it doesn't mean what it says all you like. But it does say what it says and already made the judgment. Argue with God and and tell him how wrong he is. It's His word, not mine.

Joh 3:18 KJV He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Don't forgive;

I forgive anyone.

it may be that you will still be forgiven. Dwell on the sins of others, and accuse them, for perhaps you are sinless, and qualified to cast the first stone.

We can forgive everyone of everything, but God is the judge, not us. And His word judged the issue already. No amount of forgiveness from us will move God to change His mind about what He will judge.

I judged no one. The Word did.

The passage in John is talking about you, too, although we as Christians never seem to see ourselves in these, do we? We are The Administrators!

We're not administrators'. The word is. I guess when the word says disbelief in the cross means one is lost, and we turn around and repeat that, we are judging? Hardly. You need to simply believe what the Word says, and realize it made the judgment.

If the Word never said anything about our need to believe in the work of the cross or be lost, then our statements that people are lost if they disbelieve would indeed be judging. But it just ain't so.

Sorry, But I will repeat what the word says is required when I tell people what is required.

Joh 3:18 KJV He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

So, Shazeep, how can Muslims be saved when they teach Jesus did not die on the cross? And how can we forgive them and think that means they're saved? Does our forgiveness save them? Will God forgive them for not believing in the cross?

You can look for all the common beliefs we have with Islamics all you like, but none of them cancel out the fact they deny the specific thing that is the basis of salvation -- Jesus' death on the cross for our salvation. All the common elements we agree on are many, and good beliefs. BUT NONE OF THEM SAVE US.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

So, Shazeep, how can Muslims be saved when they teach Jesus did not die on the cross?

i never said anything about Muslims being saved; this is, and has always been, about anyone who condemns others claiming to be a Christian.

Originally Posted by mfblume

And how can we forgive them and think that means they're saved? Does our forgiveness save them? Will God forgive them for not believing in the cross?

What will that matter to you when you are in hell for not being forgiving? And more, in a worse part of hell for teaching this as being Christian? Do we need to review how it is you deem anyone saved or lost again? Read this as hard as you can; Muslims are not the issue here. It is the state of a heart that can so freely condemn while being so blind to self that is.

See why God put Muslims on the earth; it is right there in Scripture, plain to read; to contend with you. Therefore saying "All ________ are lost" is the same as saying "I am stupid, and do not grasp that if i do not contend, there is no contest." Now this might seem to infer some kind of "anything goes" to you guys, and i have let that go a couple of times, but the truth is that those crying "Lord, Lord" are obviously not accepted, and it is Scripture that makes this clear. Too bad for you.

So be who you will. As you think, so are you. It is great to have a more complete, legal understanding of Christ; with this comes more responsibility, and it is those who understand it that will be judged by that standard, and rewarded for that understanding. Apply it to others in order to condemn them, and claim that God did it all you like; and keep bowing out whenever Scripture admonishes you for this, but keep in mind that you will be known by your fruit, just like anyone else. No one is remembered for their confession.

What you say you believe means less than nothing, to God. Who have you harmed, even inadvertently? Claim the cross, and plead the blood, all you like; you, who understand repentance, will be judged by this; not the one who does not understand it.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

i never said anything about Muslims being saved;

You said we cannot say they're lost. So that leaves the possibility they're saved.

this is, and has always been, about anyone who condemns others claiming to be a Christian.

No one is condemning anyone. They are ALREADY condemned. The word condemned them. For as many times as you make this invalid statement saying we are condemning people, I will repeat the truth of the picture that says the Word of God already condemned them.

What will that matter to you when you are in hell for not being forgiving?

My forgiveness cannot keep them in hell or take them out. My forgiveness has nothing to do with this. I am not God. lol

And more, in a worse part of hell for teaching this as being Christian?

Sorry you think the bible is not "Christian"? The bible made those claims, not me.

Do we need to review how it is you deem anyone saved or lost again?

It has nothing to do with me deeming anyone lost or saved. the bible did.

Read this as hard as you can; Muslims are not the issue here. It is the state of a heart that can so freely condemn while being so blind to self that is.

Sorry, the issue is what the word says. And no amount of wrangling that word will change the truth. When the bible says believe in Christ and him crucified or be lost, then it means we must believe in that or be lost. lol

See why God put Muslims on the earth;

God never put muslims in the earth any more than he put hindus or buddhists in the earth. He put human being son the earth. And he told them they must be saved by faith in the cross. Sorry, dude. It'[s just what the bible says. Take it up with the Author.

It is right there in Scripture, plain to read; to contend with you. Therefore saying "All ________ are lost" is the same as saying "I am stupid, and do not grasp that if i do not contend, there is no contest." Now this might seem to infer some kind of "anything goes" to you guys, and i have let that go a couple of times, but the truth is that those crying "Lord, Lord" are obviously not accepted, and it is Scripture that makes this clear. Too bad for you.

What has that got to do with the price of tea in China? You created a perversion of the bible that says nothing the bible says is valid. It's full of contradictions and we cannot actually know truth. To you, when the bible says sin is sin, you say we cannot say it sin is sin. You effectively make the bible a game for God to play with people. Fact is, the word is plain to see. You just don't like what it's saying.

So be who you will. As you think, so are you. It is great to have a more complete, legal understanding of Christ; with this comes more responsibility, and it is those who understand it that will be judged by that standard, and rewarded for that understanding. Apply it to others in order to condemn them,

There you go again. The word condemned them. Not me.

and claim that God did it all you like; and keep bowing out whenever Scripture admonishes you for this,

Scripture? Any time scripture is mentioned and presented for discussion you run like a nocturnal flying mammal out of hades.

but keep in mind that you will be known by your fruit, just like anyone else. No one is remembered for their confession.

Apples and oranges, speaking of fruit.

Try getting proper context. Of, I forgot. Discuss context and you run... or fly away./

What you say you believe means less than nothing, to God. Who have you harmed, even inadvertently? Claim the cross, and plead the blood, all you like; you, who understand repentance, will be judged by this; not the one who does not understand it.

Sad. Jesus said His word will judge everyone in the end. And those who lack understanding are not excused from the stripes. That's in the context, too, you know. Pesky context, huh?

[mfblume]

Mark 16:16 KJV He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Oh, how judgmental Jesus was! Condemning even!

John 3:18-19 KJV He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (19) And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Oh no. Again! So judgmental.

1 John 5:10 KJV He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.


John, too?! So condemning!

1 John 2:22 KJV Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.


John is so condemning.

See folks? The bible makes these statements, and no one balks. But when people repeat them, suddenly we're condemning people!

lol

[shazeep]

ok well just remember that the Bible has words for you, too, it isn't prolly the best idea to use it strictly as a bludgeon on others.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

You said we cannot say they're lost. So that leaves the possibility they're saved.

and we have already investigated your definitions of "saved" and "lost," and you didn't do so well there, did you? But i can see that we aren't even having the same conversation, and that this prolly isn't even possible. Best of luck to you.