In oneness theology, there is one person who believes Himself to be His own son and who wrestles with two wills within Himself, doing something he doesn't want to do but does what he wants to do. This one person has a Father and God who is Himself, who was the firstbegotten of all creation.
Now, doesn't that make sense?
This is a misunderstanding of Oneness theology. It is evident that Jesus is unique - the incarnation. It is also evident of a misunderstanding of the omnipresent God and what is required for Calvary to be efficacious.
I mentioned it somewhere on this board that for Calvary to be efficacious a man of Adam's race had to pay the penalty. Not just any man could do it. Only a sinless man could pay the price (Rom. 5, 1Cor. 15, Rom 3:23 etc.). Jesus is the seed of Abraham (Heb. 2:16).
Jesus is unique in that He is God manifest in flesh as such He has two natures. One completely human - Calvary requires this. The second His divine nature. He emptied Himself of His divine prerogatives and lived life as a man (Phil. 2). I am putting together a book on this but it is a ways off as yet.
Because He is unique there is nothing in this world to compare to Him in His incarnation. On the other hand we are all created in the image of God and this is where Trinitarian logic fails. One of many places. They say there is nothing in this world that compares to God yet the fact is there are millions of examples for we are all created in His image. When someone has MPD/DID we know they are sick and this is symptomatic of Trinitarian doctrine being sick.
So again you are wrong. It is one person setting aside divine prerogatives to live life as a man and while here He did just that. Still because He is omnipresent He was still in heaven as the God of the universe. God can manifest Himself in multiple ways simultaneously throughout the universe and still be ONE PERSON, not three.
This is a misunderstanding of Oneness theology. It is evident that Jesus is unique - the incarnation. It is also evident of a misunderstanding of the omnipresent God and what is required for Calvary to be efficacious.
I mentioned it somewhere on this board that for Calvary to be efficacious a man of Adam's race had to pay the penalty. Not just any man could do it. Only a sinless man could pay the price (Rom. 5, 1Cor. 15, Rom 3:23 etc.). Jesus is the seed of Abraham (Heb. 2:16).
Jesus is unique in that He is God manifest in flesh as such He has two natures. One completely human - Calvary requires this. The second His divine nature. He emptied Himself of His divine prerogatives and lived life as a man (Phil. 2). I am putting together a book on this but it is a ways off as yet.
Because He is unique there is nothing in this world to compare to Him in His incarnation. On the other hand we are all created in the image of God and this is where Trinitarian logic fails. One of many places. They say there is nothing in this world that compares to God yet the fact is there are millions of examples for we are all created in His image. When someone has MPD/DID we know they are sick and this is symptomatic of Trinitarian doctrine being sick.
So again you are wrong. It is one person setting aside divine prerogatives to live life as a man and while here He did just that. Still because He is omnipresent He was still in heaven as the God of the universe. God can manifest Himself in multiple ways simultaneously throughout the universe and still be ONE PERSON, not three.
I disagree. There are interactions between God and His Son which indicate two separate and distinct persons. God the Father speaks of His Son, and His Son speaks of His Father and God, who incidentally is the same God and Father which Mary has.
The Father wasn't His own Son who then interacted with Himself as having a separate will, "not my will but yours be done", in some sort of multiple personality relationship with Himself, struggling within Himself and finally yielding to one of the two wills within Himself.
Humanity vs. deity doesn't explain how Jesus spoke of His Father as sending Him, doesn't explain how the resurrected Christ ascended to His Father and God and doesn't explain His anointing by His Father, His identification as the Lamb of God and His identification as perfect high priest.
I disagree. There are interactions between God and His Son which indicate two separate and distinct persons. God the Father speaks of His Son, and His Son speaks of His Father and God, who incidentally is the same God and Father which Mary has.
The Father wasn't His own Son who then interacted with Himself as having a separate will, "not my will but yours be done", in some sort of multiple personality relationship with Himself, struggling within Himself and finally yielding to one of the two wills within Himself.
Humanity vs. deity doesn't explain how Jesus spoke of His Father as sending Him, doesn't explain how the resurrected Christ ascended to His Father and God and doesn't explain His anointing by His Father, His identification as the Lamb of God and His identification as perfect high priest.
Actually it does you just choose to ignore it and hold to a duality. A polytheistic duality or worse a subordinate deity which is again polytheism or a type of Arianism.
Actually it does you just choose to ignore it and hold to a duality. A polytheistic duality or worse a subordinate deity which is again polytheism or a type of Arianism.
Nope, no subordinate deity for me. God is God and Jesus isn't. It's very very simple, one God and His Son, Jesus the Christ, who isn't God. You don't have to make God some pretzel shaped, schizophrenic, multiple personality, non-scriptural deity/humanity hybrid with that view.
Nope, no subordinate deity for me. God is God and Jesus isn't. It's very very simple, one God and His Son, Jesus the Christ, who isn't God. You don't have to make God some pretzel shaped, schizophrenic, multiple personality, non-scriptural deity/humanity hybrid with that view.
Unless you believe Jesus is God manifest in flesh you do not believe in the Bible at all unless it is a New World Translation or Joseph Smiths version.
In oneness theology, there is one person who believes Himself to be His own son and who wrestles with two wills within Himself, doing something he doesn't want to do but does what he wants to do. This one person has a Father and God who is Himself, who was the firstbegotten of all creation.
Now, doesn't that make sense?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pliny
This is a misunderstanding of Oneness theology.
What exactly did Seekerman get wrong in his post? Point by point, please:
In oneness theology, there is one person
Can't argue there, can you?
who believes Himself to be His own son
The Bible speaks of the Son. The Son is God, isn't He? And the Son's Father is God? And God is one Person, yes? So he's right about this one, too, I suppose.
and who wrestles with two wills within Himself, doing something he doesn't want to do but does what he wants to do.
The Son's will was for the cup to pass from Him. But He did His Father's will, instead. Can't be this one that's wrong, I don't think.
This one person has a Father and God who is Himself,
The Son and the Father are one person. This one's right, too.
who was the firstbegotten of all creation.
Ah. This has to be it. It's the only one left. Did he get this one wrong?
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
What exactly did Seekerman get wrong in his post? Point by point, please:
who believes Himself to be His own son
The Bible speaks of the Son. The Son is God, isn't He? And the Son's Father is God? And God is one Person, yes? So he's right about this one, too, I suppose.
Please point me to one Oneness Person that says that God believes Himself to be His own Son...
Quote:
and who wrestles with two wills within Himself, doing something he doesn't want to do but does what he wants to do.
The Son's will was for the cup to pass from Him. But He did His Father's will, instead. Can't be this one that's wrong, I don't think.
Again who says he wrestles with two minds within Himself?
Quote:
This one person has a Father and God who is Himself,
The Son and the Father are one person. This one's right, too.
More or less but the Father is not the Son. They might be the same Person but HOW Father and Son exist and function are distinct. Some call that 'manifestation' and others call them "modes"
Quote:
who was the firstbegotten of all creation.
Ah. This has to be it. It's the only one left. Did he get this one wrong?
First begotten OVER creation. It is a term of status. It means as the only begotten Son of God He is over all Creation
NET bible commentary
28 tn The Greek term πρωτότοκος (prōtotokos) could refer either to first in order of time, such as a first born child, or it could refer to one who is preeminent in rank. M. J. Harris, Colossians and Philemon (EGGNT), 43, expresses the meaning of the word well: "The 'firstborn' was either the eldest child in a family or a person of preeminent rank. The use of this term to describe the Davidic king in [LXX] Psa_88:28 LXX (=Psa_89:27 EVV), 'I will also appoint him my firstborn (πρωτότοκον), the most exalted of the kings of the earth,' indicates that it can denote supremacy in rank as well as priority in time. But whether the πρωτό- element in the word denotes time, rank, or both, the significance of the -τοκος element as indicating birth or origin (from τίκτω, give birth to) has been virtually lost except in ref. to lit. birth." In Col_1:15 the emphasis is on the priority of Jesus' rank as over and above creation (cf. Col_1:16 and the "for" clause referring to Jesus as Creator).
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
Please point me to one Oneness Person that says that God believes Himself to be His own Son...
Are the Father and the Son the same person? Is there one "self" or two "selves"?
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Again who says he wrestles with two minds within Himself?
Two wills. Jesus separated his own will from his Father's will. "Nevertheless, not my will, but thine be done."
Quote:
More or less but the Father is not the Son. They might be the same Person but HOW Father and Son exist and function are distinct. Some call that 'manifestation' and others call them "modes"
So they are the same person, in different manifestations, or modes. OK. And these manifestations talk to each other, have different wills, know different things.
Quote:
First begotten OVER creation. It is a term of status. It means as the only begotten Son of God He is over all Creation
NET bible commentary
28 tn The Greek term πρωτότοκος (prōtotokos) could refer either to first in order of time, such as a first born child, or it could refer to one who is preeminent in rank. M. J. Harris, Colossians and Philemon (EGGNT), 43, expresses the meaning of the word well: "The 'firstborn' was either the eldest child in a family or a person of preeminent rank. The use of this term to describe the Davidic king in [LXX] Psa_88:28 LXX (=Psa_89:27 EVV), 'I will also appoint him my firstborn (πρωτότοκον), the most exalted of the kings of the earth,' indicates that it can denote supremacy in rank as well as priority in time. But whether the πρωτό- element in the word denotes time, rank, or both, the significance of the -τοκος element as indicating birth or origin (from τίκτω, give birth to) has been virtually lost except in ref. to lit. birth." In Col_1:15 the emphasis is on the priority of Jesus' rank as over and above creation (cf. Col_1:16 and the "for" clause referring to Jesus as Creator).
OK.
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
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