I miss SheltieDad (Brad) at times like these because he was always so good at pointing out the fallacy of this argument.
How is being born on this earth, in a human body, and being subject to it's laws and limitations a crime? And why should we be tortured for all humanity for something we can't control?
In order to understand this, you would have to believe the Bible is the Word of God. IIRC, in a previous post you say the Bible is a collection of writings and not the Word of God. Because of that, you can't understand what was stated above.
The Bible says all have sinned; we were born in iniquity, conceived in sin. The reason Jesus came was to fulfill OT prophecy and to be the once and for all payment for sin. Without his death, burial and resurrection, we would be without hope of eternal life.
Contrary to your universal reconciliation belief, the Bible clearly states the wages of sin is death (which is permanent); it does not say the wages of sin is a stint in rehab or some temporary judgement.
There is a literal Heaven. There is a literal Hell. People can make up beliefs and doctrines to make themselves feel better, but it doesn't change the truth.
In order to understand this, you would have to believe the Bible is the Word of God. IIRC, in a previous post you say the Bible is a collection of writings and not the Word of God. Because of that, you can't understand what was stated above.
I think you mean "In order to believe this, you would have to believe the Bible is the Word of God. . . . Because of that, you don't believe what was stated above."
You're welcome.
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
I think you mean "In order to believe this, you would have to believe the Bible is the Word of God. . . . Because of that, you don't believe what was stated above."
You're welcome.
No, I meant it the way it was written. Thanks anyway.
Oh. I see. You don't think Dichotomy Girl understands it. OK. Weird, but OK.
I am finding it very strange that people seem to think I'm incapable of understanding any spiritual matter at all, if my thoughts about doctrine or theology differ from theirs.
My questions is, how do they witness to someone of a different faith, or no faith, who doesn't hold the Bible to their level of preeminence? Or to someone from a different denomination, who is only ever used to a verse being used in one particular way?
I am in no way trying to coax anyone else into sharing my points of view. I never in any way tried to remove the Bible from this discussion. I actually was interested in various biblical interpretations, as their seem to be more scripture references for Jesus ministering to the sick, poor, etc., than anything else.
I expected perhaps many mentions of the Apostles, or prophecies from the OT, but I didn't expect for people to say that the discussion was pointless because of my views on the Bible.
__________________
“There's such a lot of different Annes in me. I sometimes think that is why I'm such a troublesome person. If I was just the one Anne it would be ever so much more comfortable, but then it wouldn't be half so interesting.”
He came to save us from the wrath of God that we justly deserve because of our crimes against Him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dichotomy Girl
How is being born on this earth, in a human body, and being subject to it's laws and limitations a crime? And why should we be tortured for all humanity for something we can't control?
Quote:
Originally Posted by n david
In order to understand this, you would have to believe the Bible is the Word of God. IIRC, in a previous post you say the Bible is a collection of writings and not the Word of God. Because of that, you can't understand what was stated above.
It helps looking at the context of which I was responding to; it wasn't the initial post, but the subsequent post I was commenting on.
Hebrews 11 says "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.....Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear." The writer of Hebrews let it be known that it takes faith to understand, and then used the first verse of the first book of the Bible as an example. The reason I said "in order to understand" is because if you don't have faith or believe in the Word of God as being authoritative, you cannot understand the simple matter of creation, much less the plan of salvation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dichotomy Girl
I am finding it very strange that people seem to think I'm incapable of understanding any spiritual matter at all, if my thoughts about doctrine or theology differ from theirs.
It's not because your doctrine or theology differs from mine; it's because you have stated you do not believe the Bible is the authoritative word of God, but merely a nice collection of writings. How can anyone truly understand spiritual matters if they don't believe in the Bible. It's impossible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dichotomy Girl
My questions is, how do they witness to someone of a different faith, or no faith, who doesn't hold the Bible to their level of preeminence? Or to someone from a different denomination, who is only ever used to a verse being used in one particular way?
The difference is, in the majority of cases, they still believe the Bible is the word of God. Especially with regards to various denominations and debates over scripture.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dichotomy Girl
I expected perhaps many mentions of the Apostles, or prophecies from the OT, but I didn't expect for people to say that the discussion was pointless because of my views on the Bible.
I never said the discussion was pointless; those are your words, not mine.
It helps looking at the context of which I was responding to; it wasn't the initial post, but the subsequent post I was commenting on.
Hebrews 11 says "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.....Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear." The writer of Hebrews let it be known that it takes faith to understand, and then used the first verse of the first book of the Bible as an example. The reason I said "in order to understand" is because if you don't have faith or believe in the Word of God as being authoritative, you cannot understand the simple matter of creation, much less the plan of salvation.
It's not because your doctrine or theology differs from mine; it's because you have stated you do not believe the Bible is the authoritative word of God, but merely a nice collection of writings. How can anyone truly understand spiritual matters if they don't believe in the Bible. It's impossible.
The difference is, in the majority of cases, they still believe the Bible is the word of God. Especially with regards to various denominations and debates over scripture.
I never said the discussion was pointless; those are your words, not mine.
But discussion is pointless, if you are unable to help her understand it. But sure, if your advice is first for her to "believe the Bible is the Word of God", and then she will understand (not that I agree that that is the correct word, as opposed to "agree" ), sure. I suppose that if she takes that advice, discussion would be less "pointless". But unnecessary, perhaps?
Interesting, isn't it, how there is still so much disagreement and arguing even among people who do accept the Bible as the Word of God, and do have the Holy Spirit leading them into all truth? (Way more so than among those who don't, I'd say! )
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
In order to understand this, you would have to believe the Bible is the Word of God. IIRC, in a previous post you say the Bible is a collection of writings and not the Word of God. Because of that, you can't understand what was stated above.
The Bible says all have sinned; we were born in iniquity, conceived in sin. The reason Jesus came was to fulfill OT prophecy and to be the once and for all payment for sin. Without his death, burial and resurrection, we would be without hope of eternal life.
Contrary to your universal reconciliation belief, the Bible clearly states the wages of sin is death (which is permanent); it does not say the wages of sin is a stint in rehab or some temporary judgement.
There is a literal Heaven. There is a literal Hell. People can make up beliefs and doctrines to make themselves feel better, but it doesn't change the truth.
Using the Bible, then, that you believe to be the Word of God. Perhaps you can answer the following question:
Jesus promised to send the following after He left to guide us into truth:
a.) A Pastor
b.) A collection of writings, put together in book form by several Christian Councils
c.) The Holy Spirit
As I have by your own rules, been baptized in the Holy Spirit (with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues), I am therefore indwelt by said Spirit, and therefore have the necessary tools to be led to Truth.
Not believing that the Bible is inerrant or 100% authoritative does not mean that I do not find it a valuable tool. I have stated many times that I believe that it's purpose is to lead one to relationship with Jesus. And a relationship with Jesus should lead one to the infilling of the Holy Spirit, which among other things is the way that God communicates with us.
__________________
“There's such a lot of different Annes in me. I sometimes think that is why I'm such a troublesome person. If I was just the one Anne it would be ever so much more comfortable, but then it wouldn't be half so interesting.”
Using the Bible, then, that you believe to be the Word of God. Perhaps you can answer the following question:
Jesus promised to send the following after He left to guide us into truth:
a.) A Pastor
b.) A collection of writings, put together in book form by several Christian Councils
c.) The Holy Spirit
As I have by your own rules, been baptized in the Holy Spirit (with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues), I am therefore indwelt by said Spirit, and therefore have the necessary tools to be led to Truth.
Not believing that the Bible is inerrant or 100% authoritative does not mean that I do not find it a valuable tool. I have stated many times that I believe that it's purpose is to lead one to relationship with Jesus. And a relationship with Jesus should lead one to the infilling of the Holy Spirit, which among other things is the way that God communicates with us.
I believe that you are indwelt by the Holy Spirit at repentance when your sins are forgiven.
__________________
Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. (Romans 14:4)
Scripture is its own interpreter. Nothing can cut a diamond but a diamond. Nothing can interpret Scripture but Scripture" Thomas Watson.
I believe that you are indwelt by the Holy Spirit at repentance when your sins are forgiven.
I was covering my bases (not necessarily stating what I believed)
__________________
“There's such a lot of different Annes in me. I sometimes think that is why I'm such a troublesome person. If I was just the one Anne it would be ever so much more comfortable, but then it wouldn't be half so interesting.”
)
(not necessarily stating what I believed)
Hybrid Mode
