This question has been on my mind this morning. So many Christians seem to focus on the Heaven/Hell, which seemingly implies that that was the sole mission of Jesus, to decide the location of our afterlife.
Do you believe that's what God intended? That used to be my focus back in my former days, I viewed everything through the lens of "Will this send me to hell? Will this help get me to heaven?" And all that led to was a relationship built on fear.
I can't help but think that's not supposed to be what it's about. I keep think of when Jesus quoted Isaiah (Luke 4),
" The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to proclaim good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to set the oppressed free,
19 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor."
Now granted, I tend to lean towards Universal Reconciliation (or at the least I believe that there will be a judgement and correction, but the purpose will be rehabilitation, and the punishment won't be eternal) so I tend to not focus too strongly on the heaven/hell - plan of salvation - make sure you did all the proper steps - parts of religion. Still I thought it would make an interesting discussion.
Why do you think Jesus came? Was it to save us? Save us from what?
Whether or not Jesus came to save us from Hell To Heaven has absolutely nothing to do with false relationships built on fear and legalism
__________________ Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
Every sinner must repent of their sins.
That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
Whether or not Jesus came to save us from Hell To Heaven has absolutely nothing to do with false relationships built on fear and legalism
I think the focus on the former tends to encourage the other.
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“There's such a lot of different Annes in me. I sometimes think that is why I'm such a troublesome person. If I was just the one Anne it would be ever so much more comfortable, but then it wouldn't be half so interesting.”
I think you mean "In order to believe this, you would have to believe the Bible is the Word of God. . . . Because of that, you don't believe what was stated above."
You're welcome.
No, I meant it the way it was written. Thanks anyway.
In my little mind, I have always thought that through the Cross, Christ came to reconcile mankind back to God.
However it is our choice how we respond to Christ and the Crucifixion.
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Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. (Romans 14:4)
Scripture is its own interpreter. Nothing can cut a diamond but a diamond. Nothing can interpret Scripture but Scripture" Thomas Watson.
In order to understand this, you would have to believe the Bible is the Word of God. IIRC, in a previous post you say the Bible is a collection of writings and not the Word of God. Because of that, you can't understand what was stated above.
The Bible says all have sinned; we were born in iniquity, conceived in sin. The reason Jesus came was to fulfill OT prophecy and to be the once and for all payment for sin. Without his death, burial and resurrection, we would be without hope of eternal life.
Contrary to your universal reconciliation belief, the Bible clearly states the wages of sin is death (which is permanent); it does not say the wages of sin is a stint in rehab or some temporary judgement.
There is a literal Heaven. There is a literal Hell. People can make up beliefs and doctrines to make themselves feel better, but it doesn't change the truth.
Using the Bible, then, that you believe to be the Word of God. Perhaps you can answer the following question:
Jesus promised to send the following after He left to guide us into truth:
a.) A Pastor
b.) A collection of writings, put together in book form by several Christian Councils
c.) The Holy Spirit
As I have by your own rules, been baptized in the Holy Spirit (with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues), I am therefore indwelt by said Spirit, and therefore have the necessary tools to be led to Truth.
Not believing that the Bible is inerrant or 100% authoritative does not mean that I do not find it a valuable tool. I have stated many times that I believe that it's purpose is to lead one to relationship with Jesus. And a relationship with Jesus should lead one to the infilling of the Holy Spirit, which among other things is the way that God communicates with us.
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“There's such a lot of different Annes in me. I sometimes think that is why I'm such a troublesome person. If I was just the one Anne it would be ever so much more comfortable, but then it wouldn't be half so interesting.”
Using the Bible, then, that you believe to be the Word of God. Perhaps you can answer the following question:
Jesus promised to send the following after He left to guide us into truth:
a.) A Pastor
b.) A collection of writings, put together in book form by several Christian Councils
c.) The Holy Spirit
As I have by your own rules, been baptized in the Holy Spirit (with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues), I am therefore indwelt by said Spirit, and therefore have the necessary tools to be led to Truth.
Not believing that the Bible is inerrant or 100% authoritative does not mean that I do not find it a valuable tool. I have stated many times that I believe that it's purpose is to lead one to relationship with Jesus. And a relationship with Jesus should lead one to the infilling of the Holy Spirit, which among other things is the way that God communicates with us.
I believe that you are indwelt by the Holy Spirit at repentance when your sins are forgiven.
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Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. (Romans 14:4)
Scripture is its own interpreter. Nothing can cut a diamond but a diamond. Nothing can interpret Scripture but Scripture" Thomas Watson.
Oh. I see. You don't think Dichotomy Girl understands it. OK. Weird, but OK.
I am finding it very strange that people seem to think I'm incapable of understanding any spiritual matter at all, if my thoughts about doctrine or theology differ from theirs.
My questions is, how do they witness to someone of a different faith, or no faith, who doesn't hold the Bible to their level of preeminence? Or to someone from a different denomination, who is only ever used to a verse being used in one particular way?
I am in no way trying to coax anyone else into sharing my points of view. I never in any way tried to remove the Bible from this discussion. I actually was interested in various biblical interpretations, as their seem to be more scripture references for Jesus ministering to the sick, poor, etc., than anything else.
I expected perhaps many mentions of the Apostles, or prophecies from the OT, but I didn't expect for people to say that the discussion was pointless because of my views on the Bible.
__________________
“There's such a lot of different Annes in me. I sometimes think that is why I'm such a troublesome person. If I was just the one Anne it would be ever so much more comfortable, but then it wouldn't be half so interesting.”
I believe that you are indwelt by the Holy Spirit at repentance when your sins are forgiven.
I was covering my bases (not necessarily stating what I believed)
__________________
“There's such a lot of different Annes in me. I sometimes think that is why I'm such a troublesome person. If I was just the one Anne it would be ever so much more comfortable, but then it wouldn't be half so interesting.”
(not necessarily stating what I believed)
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