Brother Blume, Zionism is no more atheistic than the nation is Israel is. Israel has both religious and secular Jews. Zionism as a movement has many facets and only some are atheistic. I reject the notion that it is completely and wholly Anti-God.
Nobody said it is anti-God. It is just secular and not based upon God. That's all. The nation of Israel was started by Zionism alone.
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Just as I reject the notion that America being set up as a secular Republic is somehow atheistic or displeasing to God.
Something against God is a far cry from something that is simply secular. The point is whether or not God is INTO IT. There are millions of dollars being sent to Israel for religious reasons from the USA. In fact, Christian Zionist influence is behind much of that financing, if not most of it.
And we are simply saying the root cause for Israel as a nation is not God. Not saying it is against God, although the Jews Against Zionism claim there should not be a nation of Israel there if they are not religiously adhering to God's law.
I think people do not realize that Israel was always unique. They wanted to be like other nations, in Samuel's day, and God told Samuel they rejected Him in doing so. Israel was never meant to be a nation aside from God's law-keeping. We cannot say it is similar to any other nation simply wanting to exist. God created the nation in the first place, and it is technically something that should not exist without God's influence.
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I understand that Zionism started as a way to provide a homeland for Jewish people and thus protect themselves from further depredations that had occurred throughout the world. That isn't a "biblical" reason for sure. But that doesn't mean that the current nation of Israel is somehow de-legitimized because of it.
I agree in a sense. It is a nation. people have a right to be a nation if they want. But there is also the issue of God's entire purpose for it. It is like God starting the church, and then after centuries the church wishes to cast away all requirements of God involved in it, and simply be another social club among many. In some senses this is exactly what happened in some denominations. At any rate, that would be technically ridiculous.
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I bristle at anything that seems to represent a political or even philosophical notion that the current nation of Israel doesn't have a right to exist, and by extension protect itself from those who would seek to harm it.
I completely disagree with bringing any harm to it! However, thinking God is involved with it when in actuality He is not, is quite another thing, and actually the point of this thread.
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What is the goal here? To find some excuse for some segment of Western society to find an excuse to cease support for Israel?
I think it is to inform Christians that God is not involved in Israel today, and that if they are supporting it for religious reasons, they are wrong. Would that change people's support if they knew Israel was no different than any other country?
Christian Zionists like John Hagee are pushing support for religious reasons, thinking God is behind it. They are in grave error.
Support Israel aside from any inkling of religious reasons, if we wish! But I think many would cease if they knew God is not involved in that nation whatsoever.
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
Nobody said it is anti-God. It is just secular and not based upon God. That's all. The nation of Israel was started by Zionism alone.
Something against God is a far cry from something that is simply secular. The point is whether or not God is INTO IT. There are millions of dollars being sent to Israel for religious reasons from the USA. In fact, Christian Zionist influence is behind much of that financing, if not most of it.
And we are simply saying the root cause for Israel as a nation is not God. Not saying it is against God, although the Jews Against Zionism claim there should not be a nation of Israel there if they are not religiously adhering to God's law.
I think people do not realize that Israel was always unique. They wanted to be like other nations, in Samuel's day, and God told Samuel they rejected Him in doing so. Israel was never meant to be a nation aside from God's law-keeping. We cannot say it is similar to any other nation simply wanting to exist. God created the nation in the first place, and it is technically something that should not exist without God's influence.
I agree in a sense. It is a nation. people have a right to be a nation if they want. But there is also the issue of God's entire purpose for it. It is like God starting the church, and then after centuries the church wishes to cast away all requirements of God involved in it, and simply be another social club among many. In some senses this is exactly what happened in some denominations. At any rate, that would be technically ridiculous.
I completely disagree with bringing any harm to it! However, thinking God is involved with it when in actuality He is not, is quite another thing, and actually the point of this thread.
I think it is to inform Christians that God is not involved in Israel today, and that if they are supporting it for religious reasons, they are wrong. Would that change people's support if they knew Israel was no different than any other country?
Christian Zionists like John Hagee are pushing support for religious reasons, thinking God is behind it. They are in grave error.
Support Israel aside from any inkling of religious reasons, if we wish! But I think many would cease if they knew God is not involved in that nation whatsoever.
Again, I have to ask the question exactly how do you know God isnt behind the creation of Israel? (besides your personal partial preterist views of course)
Did Jesus come down and tell you that?
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
Again, I have to ask the question exactly how do you know God isnt behind the creation of Israel? (besides your personal partial preterist views of course)
Did Jesus come down and tell you that?
Deut 30 states it. God created Israel when it was created . But Deut 30 conflicts with the idea that God would be behind establishing Israel today when they refuse to abide by His law.
Deuteronomy 30:1-4 KJV And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, (2) And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; (3) That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. (4) If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
And wonderfully enough, the Jews against Zionism cite this very same reason!
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
Deut 30 states it. God created Israel when it was created . But Deut 30 conflicts with the idea that God would be behind establishing Israel today when they refuse to abide by His law.
Deuteronomy 30:1-4 KJV And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, (2) And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; (3) That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. (4) If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
And wonderfully enough, the Jews against Zionism cite this very same reason!
and I dont agree at all. Nothing there says that Israel has to be set up with as some kind of religious nation based upon an overtly religious set of laws.
God said he would gather and turn their hearts to him.
I know more than the average person about the history here. How Israel becamse a nation is well within the relm of the Miraculous. You have to ignor quite a bit to suggest that God had no hand here.
Why did those early Jews succeed when they were out manned and out gunned?
how did they survive the 6 day war when they were out classed in every way?
I could go on. I will stop there. I dont agree with you AT ALL that Israel as it is currently constituted, isnt by Gods will. I dont know that and neither do you.
And at the end of the day, I still suspect that your goal here is that we step back from support of Israel as a nation entirely. That really bothers me.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
and I dont agree at all. Nothing there says that Israel has to be set up with as some kind of religious nation based upon an overtly religious set of laws.
God said he would gather and turn their hearts to him.
I know more than the average person about the history here. How Israel becamse a nation is well within the relm of the Miraculous. You have to ignor quite a bit to suggest that God had no hand here.
Why did those early Jews succeed when they were out manned and out gunned?
how did they survive the 6 day war when they were out classed in every way?
I could go on. I will stop there. I dont agree with you AT ALL that Israel as it is currently constituted, isnt by Gods will. I dont know that and neither do you.
And at the end of the day, I still suspect that your goal here is that we step back from support of Israel as a nation entirely. That really bothers me.
Ferd, many times I have been out of God's will, but not once was I out of his care!
That is the issue!
God's will. That doesn't mean he will let Israel get squished by it's enemies no different than God isn't allowing the US or Canada become vaporised because we allow gay marriage & abort babies.
I think also Bro Blume is saying & correct me if I am wrong, that we don't need to support Israel for religious purposes, but for practical or humanitarian purposes much the same that US supports Canada!
Ferd, many times I have been out of God's will, but not once was I out of his care!
That is the issue!
God's will. That doesn't mean he will let Israel get squished by it's enemies no different than God isn't allowing the US or Canada become vaporised because we allow gay marriage & abort babies.
I think also Bro Blume is saying & correct me if I am wrong, that we don't need to support Israel for religious purposes, but for practical or humanitarian purposes much the same that US supports Canada!
Am I right?
YES.
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
and I dont agree at all. Nothing there says that Israel has to be set up with as some kind of religious nation based upon an overtly religious set of laws.
God said he would gather and turn their hearts to him.
Incorrect. God said they first must obey his command and THEN God would work with regathering them.
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I know more than the average person about the history here. How Israel becamse a nation is well within the relm of the Miraculous. You have to ignor quite a bit to suggest that God had no hand here.
You have got to ignore the bible to think God had a hand in this. This is what the Torah Keeping Jews are trying to say.
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I could go on. I will stop there. I dont agree with you AT ALL that Israel as it is currently constituted, isnt by Gods will. I dont know that and neither do you.
And at the end of the day, I still suspect that your goal here is that we step back from support of Israel as a nation entirely. That really bothers me.
Don't resort to changing my intentions when I distinctly said anyone can support Israel all they want, but not for religious reasons.
I am amazed you choose to ignore what the actual law keeping Jews are saying about all of this in light of the Old Testament. They are screaming to the world to realize antisemitism is caused by Zionism, and it is a cause that makes these religious Jews look like they're behind something they hate. They are hollering to us that Zionists are bringing on persecution against the jewish people more than anything else in the world today.
And they see Christians supporting a Zionist Israel, and wonder what maniacal nonsense we are going on with in saying God is behind it all when they know for a fact that God's own Word forbids such an act from God.
We have a great witness, bro!
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
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