The Second Coming of Christ

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by bbyrd009

Hmm, I just reread it, and I read that one can't resurrect in a physical body, but it's early, and I'd chiefly like to get the other interpretation of 1 Cor 15 in here, if you or someone would, for comparison, and completely ignore the
"24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father;" blowing away any attempt to make Christ the Father.

I'll give this another day, read the commentaries, and then post a synopsis, if someone doesn't beat me to it, and I'd like to continue this from there, not expecting to marry the two viewpoints, but respect them both enough to present both interpretations fairly, if possible.

1 Cor 15 says flesh and blood cannot enter inherit the kingdom. Not a physical body. I think you mistook FLESH AND BLOOD for a PHYSICAL BODY. FLESH AND BLOOD is an idiom. Notice this:

Jesus told Peter and that flesh and blood did not reveal the revelation of the Father to him. Paul said that we fight not against flesh and blood. but principalities. It is a periphrasis. A round about way of referring to THE FALLEN STATE OF MAN where sin is part of our flesh now.

The whole chapter is about physical bodies. IT is the same IT that is both sown and raised. IT IS SOWN IN CORRUPTION AND IT IS RAISED in incorruption. Jesus' body was very physical and came out of the tomb in the same way God shall FASHION OUR BODIES from mortal to immortal.

Php 3:21 KJV Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

The whole question of 1 Cor 15 is WITH WHAT BODY SHALL THEY COME?

1Co 15:35 KJV But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

In all due respect, MTD is incorrect, NATURAL does not mean PHYSICAL. It means something that is empowered by natural life -- nature. SPIRITUAL does not mean NON-PHYSICAL. It means something, even physical, that is supernatural in quality. That is why SPIRITUAL MEAT AND DRINK were mentioned in the same book in 1 Cor 10. And it was VERY PHYSICAL.

Jesus rose in a PHYSICAL body that was said to be SPIRITUAL.

NATURAL AND SPIRITUAL have nothing to do with physical or not. There are people right now who are alive in earth and are SPIRITUAL people and NOT NATURAL:

1Co 2:14-15 KJV But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (15) But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

Does the above mean he that is non-physical without a physical body, alone can discern spiritual truths? Of course not.l And that again is in the same book, 1 Cor!

[mfblume]

I started a whole thread on this issue and delved into the greek terms used here:

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...light=sarkikos

[bbyrd009]

Cool-I'd say you expanded on Michael's post, ty both.

[Michael The Disciple]

NATURAL AND SPIRITUAL have nothing to do with physical or not. There are people right now who are alive in earth and are SPIRITUAL people and NOT NATURAL:

1Co 2:14-15 KJV But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (15) But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

Does the above mean he that is non-physical without a physical body, alone can discern spiritual truths? Of course not.l And that again is in the same book, 1 Cor!

Jesus was always "spiritually" minded. But Paul speaking of contrasting bodies said Jesus WAS MADE a "quickening spirit".

Paul does NOT use the phrase "physical body" at all. He says we will have a SPIRITUAL body.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Here's something I've heard recently. I don't know if it is splitting hairs or not.

Then our physical bodies will be changed "in a twinkling of an eye" but instead of going somewhere supernatural... meaning outside of our present world... could it be... and this is my big question... could it be that we are changed from our physical bodies here to a spiritual body like Christ's, and be part of a changed immortal church group of people here on the new earth that God says he will be creating? I don't know. Nor does anyone really know for sure. But just a thought.

If we can believe that we will be changed, and taken out of this world, a big concept to grasp, why is it so unbelievable that it is also possible that we be supernaturally changed to stay here, in the new earth God will be creating... ????

Can anyone address this issue? Thanks!

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by mfblume

kbtw,

When we study 1 Cor 15 (the moment we are ALL changed, whether dead or alive (which means it has to all happen at once)), that chapter does not speak about catching away. So the context there does not say if we are caught away at the same time from the world. But the point of all being changed at once, whether dead or alive, is raised again in 1 Thess 4. THERE is where it says we will be caught away from this world physically, at the same time. Now, the CHANGE is in a moment, but it did not say in 1 thess 4 that the CATCHING AWAY is in a twinkling of an eye.

Compare:

1Co 15:50-52 KJV Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. (51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, (52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Th 4:15-17 KJV For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

THE TRUMP is mentioned in both 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thess 4. It is one and the same trumpet. It involves BOTH DEAD AND LIVING saints to be CHANGED at the same time, and is when the dead rise first AND THEN THE LIVING ARE CAUGHT UP. The change in a twinkling of an eye is not the catching away. The catching away is NOT DONE in the twinkling of an eye. Who knows how long we will be here AFTER WE ARE CHANGED? It cannot be long, though,l but it is not the twinkling of an eye that sees us gone. All we know about being caught up physically is found in 1 Thess 4. And there we read that the dead rise first and then the living are caught up to be WITH THEM. All of us at the SAME TIME MEET THE LORD. But even meeting the Lord is not done in the twinkling of an eye.

Summary:

1) THE CHANGING OF OUR BODIES, whether dead or alive occurs in the twinkling of an eye at the same time for everyone.

2) The DEAD RISE or are CAUGHT AWAY FIRST, though.

3) THE LIVING are then caught up AFTER THE DEAD RISE, to be with the resurrected dead IN THE AIR TO MEET THE LORD.

So it IS explained in scripture,. but we just have to look at all the passages which are 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thess 4 to see it all.

I don't have a problem with us being physically changed into a supernatural body and the fact that it will take place in the twinkling of an eye. Those things are not in question, in my mind anyway. In fact, I do believe that.

However, one question that seems to be in my mind, is where will our new supernatural bodies be residing... and the question I had posed earlier, and re-posted.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

I don't have a problem with us being physically changed into a supernatural body and the fact that it will take place in the twinkling of an eye. Those things are not in question, in my mind anyway. In fact, I do believe that.

However, one question that seems to be in my mind, is where will our new supernatural bodies be residing... and the question I had posed earlier, and re-posted.

I believe we will pass in and out of the invisible realm and physical realm. Psalm 115 says the EARTH was given to the sons of men. EARTH will be ours forever when sinners do not exist along with satan and death.

Psa 115:16 KJV The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.

God gave Adam dominion on the earth before Adam sinned and fell.

Gen 1:28 KJV And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

When we die and go to heaven before we get our new bodies, WE ARE NOT STAYING THERE FOREVERMORE, despite what the hymns say. Heaven FOR MAN is a TEMPORARY PLACE until we get our new bodies. You cannot find a verse that says we will live forever in heaven. But we WILL OBTAIN THE EARTH FOREVER.

Mat 5:5 KJV Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

We will return to the position that Adam was given before Adam sinned. DOMINION OVER EARTH. We will pass into heaven as Jesus did with His physical body that obviously could experience the supernatural realm of Heaven. But HEAVEN is not where we will stay forever. Everyone who believes that stands solely upon hymns that are faulty. the bible does not teach we shall spend eternity in heaven. Look for it, and you will not find it in the bible.

[mfblume]

We pray this all the time, but so many do not get what it is saying. OUR FATHER DWELLS IN HEAVEN. And we are not praying to GO TO HEAVEN, but THY KINGDOM COME and THY WILL BE DONE IN EARTH as it is in heaven. God's will is to bring the KINGDOM OF HEAVEN TO THIS EARTH. We PRAY correctly, but THINK incorrectly. We THINK our goal of all goals is to die and go to heaven to be there forever. It only says we shall be with the LORD forever, but who said Jesus will stay in heaven forever? HE IS COMING BACK!

Yes, we WILL GO TO HEAVEN if we died today as a saved person. But we will not stay there. When he comes again, we will return to our bodies that have been changed and made spiritual, though still very physical, and RULE THIS EARTH with Jesus forevermore. Not just for one thousand years either.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by mfblume

We pray this all the time, but so many do not get what it is saying. OUR FATHER DWELLS IN HEAVEN. And we are not praying to GO TO HEAVEN, but THY KINGDOM COME and THY WILL BE DONE IN EARTH as it is in heaven. God's will is to bring the KINGDOM OF HEAVEN TO THIS EARTH. We PRAY correctly, but THINK incorrectly. We THINK our goal of all goals is to die and go to heaven to be there forever. It only says we shall be with the LORD forever, but who said Jesus will stay in heaven forever? HE IS COMING BACK!

Yes, we WILL GO TO HEAVEN if we died today as a saved person. But we will not stay there. When he comes again, we will return to our bodies that have been changed and made spiritual, though still very physical, and RULE THIS EARTH with Jesus forevermore. Not just for one thousand years either.

Yes!!!! This is what I have been seeing as I read and study OT writings of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, and Zachariah! The end times (with typical writings of moon turned into darkness, and sun into blood and so forth) are almost always accompanied with descriptions of man living again in a recreated earth, must like it was in the garden of Eden, I suppose.

This is something most people don't see, I think, and don't realize. I've never been able to understand how the doctrine of rapture and heaven could coincide with the writing of the OT prophets.

I'm glad I have found a witness to this. Understanding this concept puts the scripture much more into context in so many ways.

But most people don't want to see that this earth will be our "heaven" because we want to believe it is something "other worldly" or out in the heavenlies somewhere singing with the angels. It sounds better that way I guess.

Thanks again for answering my post Bro. Blume!!!

Stay warm

[mfblume]

Hey, k, good to see someone not flip out since a tradition was lamb-basted. Lol