Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen
Look in the book of Revelations 1:16 "And he had IN HIS RIGHT HAND SEVEN STARS: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength." What meaneth these seven stars? Go to verse 19 "The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches."
And we know angel in these passages is referring to by definition "especially an "angel"; by implication a pastor. "
Now I can prove it go with me to 2:18-23 "And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; [19] I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first. [20] Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. [21] And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. [22] Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. [23] And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works."
Now where I'm going with this? Because this is what the Pastor is announcing to the rest of the church, you know how I know? Now verse 24 " BUT UNTO YOU I SAY, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden." Who is this talking to when it says "unto you I say?" The Pastor by definition the messenger of the house. This has nothing to do with a angelic being, and Verse 24 proves that because an angel can't follow false doctrine, and not sin. And if they sin there is no repentance provided.
So now this all fits with Hebrews 13:7"Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation." Who did Revelations show this to be, the angel of the house "the pastor." Now verse 17 is clear " Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you." Verse 7 shows who they are that have rule over you, and so does Revelations Reveal what verse 7 is speaking of, a pastor.
Now why it doesnt talk more of this, IDK. But the NT is the times of the Apostles and that's what it focuses on. It doesn't go into detail about the Pastor because in it's definition it shows headship. Pastor or "poimen" means "the presiding officer, manager, director, of any assembly: so of Christ the Head of the church, of the overseers of the Christian assemblies." Which this is given by the Bishop, and the Apostles were the Bishops per Acts 1:20.
The Pastor is also a Elder btw in the church. They can be said interchangeably. There has to be a leader and the word Pastor is self explanatory if we see it one time in scripture its making itself clear what it means, by definition.
Threre is no ordination because the true Pastor of Gods church is appointed by God. The same way the Apostles were, hand picked. As my Pastor is, not that all pastors in buildings are. Which that would be safe to say that's also not Gods church, despite what it says on the door!
Have a goodnight we've had this conversation before. No reason to rehash it. But its real simple if you don't want to see it you won't. |
Brother . . . if you didn't see any need to re-hash the subject, why did you bring it up?
Could it be that you wanted to re-hash it, but didn't want me to?
Let's review some
facts about your post.
Revelation does not mention the word pastor. But you see pastor in Revelation. You see pastor where there is no pastor.
Revelation does mention the seven stars in the right hand of Jesus, which declares them to be angels, which you in turn perceive to be pastors. The commentary that you quote says that they are
implied to be pastors.
I understand that Revelation includes a lot of symbolism.
It also has a warning about adding to or taking away from the words of this book.
18] For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book,
If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
[19] And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
I don't mean to be harsh, but it seems to me you are sorely tempted to add the word pastor, and subtract the word angel. Just a thought.
Let's look at an example of symbolism. Do you remember the brazen serpent? It was a symbol of the crucifixion of Jesus.
Numbers 21
[6] And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
[7] Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.
[8] And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
[9] And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.
The brazen serpent in the wilderness was a symbol of the crucifixion. As the serpent was lifted up from the earth, so was the Son of man to be lifted up. And as the people of Israel were physically saved of the poison of the serpents' bite, we are saved spiritually by Jesus who was lifted up when He hung on the cross.
The serpent in the wilderness was symbolic of, or a type of Jesus. It is simple, straightforward, and there is no confusion.
John 3
[13] And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
[14] And ,
even as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness so must the Son of man be lifted up:
In this example, this (the serpent) symbolizes that (Jesus' crucifixion). Let's compare this to your theory that the stars symbolize pastors. With your example, the stars are said to symbolize angels which you in turn hypothesize to be a symbol of pastors. Do you see the extra step that you have added. This (the stars), symbolize that (angels), which in turn symbolize the other (pastors). We have a symbol of a symbol here, instead of a symbol of the pastor.
I am aware of the
theory, that the angels symbolize pastors, however it is very weak in my opinion, when you have nothing in scripture to make a direct connection, as I have done in my example above. If you are convinced, maybe you should go for it. I am not convinced.
Another thing regarding the posting of Phil White sermon yesterday. I listened to it and there is one thing that did concern me. At the end of his sermon he had the young people kneel before the pastors. He is careful to say that this should not be considered worshiping man, however the very fact that he had to say so is perhaps an indication that it was ill-advised. What would the apostles do, because, you know we are apostolics. Right?
Acts 10
25] And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.
[26] But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.
Here we have an example of an apostle discouraging a man from bowing down to him, and there (in the case of Phil White) we have an example of someone requesting young people to kneel before their pastors. I am not trying to make more of it than it is, but the symbolism is hard to ignore!
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