A covid forum?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

If God says that nothing shall separate us from His love, then He can’t stop loving us. Therefore, I surmise that if I don’t keep His commandments, it is because I do not love Him.

Of course, if you don't keep His commandments, then you don't love Him.

Nothing separating us from the love of God applies to Christians, who walk with God. No power can kidnap you and cause God's love to fail you.

But you can apostasize. In that case you are no longer in the "us" Paul speaks about, you have no claim to the promises of God EXCEPT the promise of pardon upon condition of your repentance, which is available to all sinners and rebels that are willing to cease their war against God.

Jude 1:21 KJV
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

If we are told to keep ourselves in the love of God, then it is possible to NOT keep ourselves in the love of God.

But in any event, "love" here in all these passages isn't about feelings like so many suppose.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Of course, if you don't keep His commandments, then you don't love Him.

Nothing separating us from the love of God applies to Christians, who walk with God. No power can kidnap you and cause God's love to fail you.

But you can apostasize. In that case you are no longer in the "us" Paul speaks about, you have no claim to the promises of God EXCEPT the promise of pardon upon condition of your repentance, which is available to all sinners and rebels that are willing to cease their war against God.

Jude 1:21 KJV
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

If we are told to keep ourselves in the love of God, then it is possible to NOT keep ourselves in the love of God.

As has been the point, which I see you are now agreeing with.

But in any event, "love" here in all these passages isn't about feelings like so many suppose.

Love in Jude means to “love in a social or moral sense”.

I expect there would be feelings involved.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

It seems to me you are contradicting yourself. If X causes Y, it isn't X's fault???

The King James doesn't throw people off in this instance. People throw themselves off by not understanding what is being clearly said.

It's a manner of speaking, bro. They are jarred by antiquated English and cannot follow it correctly, so they give an erring interpretation. Why are we still talking about that? lol

John 15:10 KJV
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

If... what? "If ye keep my commandments." Not "if ye abide in my love." The KJV isn't throwing anyone off.

It's throwing people off if they are no accustomed to that use of English and think it;'s something else (like you do with Col 2 on sabbaths. lol).

Just funnin'

We do not earn God's love. Bottom line.

[Jito463]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

If God says that nothing shall separate us from His love, then He can’t stop loving us. Therefore, I surmise that if I don’t keep His commandments, it is because I do not love Him.

Saying that He loves us, doesn't automatically mean we abide in that love.

If I may make an analogy:

A parent may say that their child is always welcome to come home, that doesn't automatically mean they abide in the home. And if they want to come home, they must obey their parents.

Likewise, if we want to abide in His love, then we must obey His commandments. His stance doesn't change, but our actions will dictate the outcome.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

If God says that nothing shall separate us from His love, then He can’t stop loving us. Therefore, I surmise that if I don’t keep His commandments, it is because I do not love Him.

Romans 8:35-39

35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

37Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Nothing in these verses says that SIN cannot separate us from his love.

On the other hand he says we will abide in his love if we keep his commands. John 15:10

The condition of abiding in HIS LOVE is keeping his commands.

He does not HAVE to love anyone.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

As has been the point, which I see you are now agreeing with.

Actually that wasn't the point, and my position hasn't changed at all. Apparently you just weren't understanding what was taking place.

Love in Jude means to “love in a social or moral sense”.

I expect there would be feelings involved.

Yes, you certainly would expect feelings to be involved. However, one's personal expectations are not the basis of doctrine.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

It's a manner of speaking, bro. They are jarred by antiquated English and cannot follow it correctly, so they give an erring interpretation. Why are we still talking about that? lol

We're still talking about it because you are persisting in claiming there is a fault with "antiquated English" that is the occasion of people misreading and misunderstanding. There is nothing antiquated about "If you keep my commandments you shall abide in my love." If the presence of "ye" be the antiquated terms that throw people off, then what they would be thrown off about is what "ye" signifies. Which is not what the discussion was about . besides which, I've never known anyone over the age of say 16 who doesn't know that "ye" is just an old way of saying "you". So, there is no "antiquated language" that "throws people off."

Rather, people cannot accept that abiding in God's love is conditioned upon obedience. So they throw themselves off into a reversal and wresting of the plain statement of Scripture, like saying "what this means is if we abide in God's love then we will keep His commandments" when that is not at all what the verse says.

It's throwing people off if they are no accustomed to that use of English and think it;'s something else (like you do with Col 2 on sabbaths. lol).

Just funnin'

My understanding of Col 2 is not based on a misunderstanding of archaic Elizabethan English, but it is based on an examination of the koine Greek grammar. Try again.

We do not earn God's love. Bottom line.

Nobody said we do.

[votivesoul]

One must keep in mind the concept of wrath. The NT has more than one Greek word translated consistently as wrath. One of them happens to be orge, pronounced just like "orgy":

https://biblehub.com/greek/3709.htm

Definition:

orgḗ (from orgáō, "to teem, swelling up to constitutionally oppose") – properly, settled anger (opposition), i.e. rising up from an ongoing (fixed) opposition.

3709 /orgḗ ("settled anger") proceeds from an internal disposition which steadfastly opposes someone or something based on extended personal exposure, i.e. solidifying what the beholder considers wrong (unjust, evil).

"Orgē comes from the verb oragō meaning, 'to teem, to swell'; and thus implies that it is not a sudden outburst, but rather (referring to God's) fixed, controlled, passionate feeling against sin . . . a settled indignation...

This word appears in John 3:36, where John the Baptist said the "wrath of God" abides on all who do not obey the Son.

Paul wrote in Romans 1:18 that the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness.

Psalm 7:11, in the LXX, uses the word ὀργὴν (orgen) to translate the phrase "God is angry with the wicked every day".

The reason that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for the ungodly, and thus, the love of God toward us is commended, is because Christ knew that there was, predestinated from the foundation of the kosmos, a people of and for God who would come out of their sin and bondage by obeying the Gospel. That is why God sent His Son. It wasn't so you could have a personal relationship with Jesus, or that God thinks you're to die for, or whatever modern jargon church-goers like to come up with.

It was to redeem and reclaim something that was lost that God wanted back: worship of the Father in Spirit and in Truth.

God's love for us was predestined to be by nature of His being, according to His foreknowledge that sending His Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, to condemn sin in the flesh, would bring many sons unto glory.

So, whenever thinking on Romans 5:8, always remember 5:9:

9. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from ὀργῆς
(orges - wrath) through him.

If we had never obeyed the Son, God's settled indignation and anger would still abide upon us every day. His wrath against us would have been eventually revealed from heaven against us, and in flaming fire, He would then, take vengeance upon us and destroy us in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone.

That, brothers and sisters, is not love, but wrath.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

We're still talking about it because you are persisting in claiming there is a fault with "antiquated English" that is the occasion of people misreading and misunderstanding.

No, I am not saying that at all. I did not, do not and never shall say that there is a fault with Antiquated English language. Please do not tell me what I know I said. lol. It is talking about remaining in it and learning more of it. It's not our love to HIm depends on whether or not we keep his commandments. Commandment keeping does not generate love for him as many might think by reading this.

The problem is not with the old English, it's with people who cannot follow it correctly. That's not the Old English fault. It's the fault of those who do not follow it for not being educated enough in following it.

For example, when I first read Rev 5's reference to this verse:

13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, [u]heard I[/i] saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

I thought it meant that all creation HEARD JOHN holler. But in reality, JOHN HEARD all creation holler out.

The Old English threw me off. Not because it's wrong, but I was lacking understanding of reading Old English. Who around here, for example, knows what FETCH A COMPASS means in the KJV?

There is nothing antiquated about "If you keep my commandments you shall abide in my love." If the presence of "ye" be the antiquated terms that throw people off, then what they would be thrown off about is what "ye" signifies. Which is not what the discussion was about . besides which, I've never known anyone over the age of say 16 who doesn't know that "ye" is just an old way of saying "you". So, there is no "antiquated language" that "throws people off."

Yes, there most certainly is. But I will not belabour it.

Rather, people cannot accept that abiding in God's love is conditioned upon obedience. So they throw themselves off into a reversal and wresting of the plain statement of Scripture, like saying "what this means is if we abide in God's love then we will keep His commandments" when that is not at all what the verse says.

My understanding of Col 2 is not based on a misunderstanding of archaic Elizabethan English, but it is based on an examination of the koine Greek grammar. Try again.

Same example. You felt that "but the body of Christ", following the words about a shadow, means no one can judge EXCEPT the body of Christ, and that is not at all what the way that the English reads as. You even admitted you read it wrong, and tried saying I did as well. It actually means the body of Christ is in reference to that which cast the shadow, not an exception of who cannot judge.

Nobody said we do.

Nobody said we can earn God's love? It sure looked like you said that when you said we only abide in God's love if we keep his commandments.

I just interpreted the verse the way in whiCH John 14:23 reads about the issue. IF WE LOVE HIM, we will keep his commandments.

[james34]

If we love him we will keep his commandments

Some interpret "will" as having a future tense aim, for some it is so future tense that it never happens. But they were preached to that they loved God in a biblical Godly way, and that keeping his commandments is just trying to merit his love.
I have often pondered (years ago now) what the motive of our love toward God is? I have come to the conclusion that we love him because (he first loved us, not in lip service only but in demonstration.) The giving of his life is the greatest manifestation of his love, but it no where near the only manifestation. These selfless proofs of his love initiate in us a love toward God, but if the love that was born in us is true, then we will strive to keep his commandments and that is a present tense "will", not a ten years down the road "charismatic will". We will be judged not by how much we say we love God, by every idle word and by the whole word of God.
We live in a religious time where people put more emphasis on the second commandment than on the first.
The second being Love your neighbor as yourself, but the first is to Love the Lord thy God with all of thy heart, soul , strength and might......the second is like unto it and is even called the royal commandment. But it is the 2nd and not the first. The secular humanistic version of christianity can proffessdly embrace the second commandment and ignore the first.
But to accept a love absent from obedience of keeping the commandments puts us on that old slippery slope. The bible tells us upon these 2 commandments hinge all of the law and the prophets. This is true only because true love for God (the love "of "God shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost) being present in us keeps us from all of those sinful things which the commandments speak of. You dont covet things that belong to someone you love, not his property , not his wife, you dont bear false witness against someone(love thine enemy) that you love,etc. I must conclude therefore that to walk in his love cannot be separated from abiding in his word...then are we his disciples (not in lip service) but in deed.