Some opinions wanted

[meBNme]

I walked out of a "Church" service once.

It was promoted heavily as a "Praise concert, FREE to the public"

We were there 45 min, they had taken up 6 offerings, and were on the 7th.
At the beginning of EVERY song, and at the end of EVERY offering, there was this big spiel about how "we fixin ta git our PRAISE on up in heah!!" and "Now we gonna worship and bring down the Holy Ghost in dis house!!".
Three songs were singing ABOUT praise, and how "we gon dance an shout" but not one song ever actually spoke good things of God, or of his character or what he means to us. Only ONE song, mentioned Jesus, only two times. And it was to basically say, "we are Jesus people".
There was no worship, no praise and absolutely no anointing or moving of any spirit but self aggrandizement, greed, self promotion, and putting on a show to sell Cd's.

We kept waiting for the worship to start, we even tried starting it. If you were not performing some perfectly choreographed "dance" or swaying just right with the crowd, you were looked at like a freak. Don't even try to actually raise your hands or praise with your mouth unless the song said, "This is how I raise my hands" over and over 47 times.

Maybe it was just me, but I didn't feel any moving of the spirit or even a sense of worship over "This is how I raise my hands" repeated over and over just because the music was hoppin.

We left.

It was all a show, it was all about money.

We have since not purchased one song produced by those highly publicised, highly reputed (and in my opinion, highly fake) performers.

Don't just brag about how you gonna praise and how good a groove you can cut.
Get out there and DO IT. but do it unto God, not to promote your next CD and boost your rep.

[Cindy]

My opinion is, it's not any of my business how a church takes up an offering. Or what they take it up for. Or how many offerings they take up. If it isn't my church.

[All4one]

The church is supposed to be a blessing to the world! not be blessed by the world. WWJD? Jesus probably got up and left too.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by gloryseeker

It is very simple. According to the Bible there is only one way that faith comes (Rom 10:17), by hearing the Word.

Now, if someone says, "Ushers come up and pass the plates" you are absolutely right, no faith will come. But if someone takes a few minutes and exhorts from the Word why we are to give then according to the Word faith will come.

Too often, the focus of "offering time" is about the church getting the money it needs to operate. Tithes and offerings is a time of worship. It is a way we honor God and when faith comes and we give according to how God designed His system there are many promises that will manifest in our life.

Having a box in the back and nothing being said about giving robs people of the Word, the opportunity, and the reason we give.

Gloryseeker, I can respect your opinion, but not everyone believes in the magic tithing doctrine. Given the very loose network of churches in the New Testament and how they gathered, and how most were slaves and very poor Roman citizens, how they didn't have a Levitical Priesthood, and how they had no temple, it's highly doubtful that the New Testament church of the bible even tithed. Most likely they took up targeted offerings to address needs as they arose.

I'm not wanting a tithing debate, I'm just trying to illustrate that not everyone believes exactly the same thing on this. There's room for disagreement.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Sam

So, how should a pastor's salary be determined?
At a figure that equals the average salary of the membership?
Slightly higher than the largest salary in the congregation?
Two, three, or ten times the average salary of the membership?

I think a pastor should work a full time job like everyone else. Just my opinion. I know plenty of pastors that are bivocational and refuse to depend on the church's welfare. One even told me that Paul admonished against fellowshipping with men who wouldn't work, and he believed that goes for the pastor too.

[Rhoni]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Makes me nervious to see a thread started by Rhoni wherein she is thinking like me......

Originally Posted by Praxeas

So you think "Church" is the time and place to have 4 solicitations for funds one of which was a raffle (gambling)?

BTW if Pastoring is a 24/7 job what is being a saint that get's calls or text messages all times of the day and night to pray for this person or that person, teach bible studies, witness to souls, show up early for prayer and whatever else a saint is expected to do and to shell out money not once, not twice, not even three times but 4 times in a place and time that is supposed to be about prayer, worship,evangelism, edification and other such things?

Jesus, as our ultimate example did do something...He chased the moneycahngers out of the temple.

I do know the pastor and he is worthy of the honor and the vacation and even the yard work. My problem with the whole thing is the appropriateness of how it was done.

#1. Raffling is gambling [you all know me and I am more moderate but gambling in the church duirng service is such a witness to the world/visitors - NOT]
#2. You do not take an offerrring for missions, church ministries, and take a second offerring for the Pastor's landscaping while telling the people he and his wife are in the Caribbean financed also by the church. Vistors and those not in the congregation should not be solicited for funds in this way. They do not know the Pastor and what he does or doesn't do for the church.
#3. I will say that through the years things have changed in ministry. Many Pastors are not availbale to their church 24/7. They have set appointment times and they are set by the church administrator and they have lay Pastors that visit the sick, counsel, and prayer teams for special prayer. This is a good thing on one hand and a bad thing on another.

Blessings,
Rhoni

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I think there are excesses in this area and I agree rarely does a saint get sent to some nice place....the best they can hope for is Fresno or Bakersfield California, however at the same time I have to say my Pastor does not get enough. But the reason for that is not because I think Pastors should live like spoiled kings over God's heritage. The reason is because he really does not get enough and has had to work part time to suppliment his income.

Originally Posted by All4one

The church is supposed to be a blessing to the world! not be blessed by the world. WWJD? Jesus probably got up and left too.

P.S. Praxeas - you and I are in total agreement on this one!

[Pastor Keith]

Originally Posted by Sam

So, how should a pastor's salary be determined?
At a figure that equals the average salary of the membership?
Slightly higher than the largest salary in the congregation?
Two, three, or ten times the average salary of the membership?

There is a compensation book for ministers printed annually. It lists the average compensation for churches of various sizes. For a church running between 100-200 the compensastion is about 82k a year if I remember.

I think that to be a good starting point. I do believe Paul's usage of "Don't Muzzle the Ox" to a good principle as well.

[Pastor Keith]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I think a pastor should work a full time job like everyone else. Just my opinion. I know plenty of pastors that are bivocational and refuse to depend on the church's welfare. One even told me that Paul admonished against fellowshipping with men who wouldn't work, and he believed that goes for the pastor too.

As a younger Pastor who has worked bi-vocationally I appreciate your post, but at the same time, it takes being a Pastor sometimes to realize Pastor full time truly is hard work and unique burden. Pastoring/Ministering is one of the loneliest, least appreciated jobs regardless of income.

[Pastor Keith]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Good point!

I think this to be a good scripture regardin consitent and weekly giving.

1 Corinithians 16: 1Now about the collection for God's people: Do what I told the Galatian churches to do. 2 On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made.

[Margies3]

Originally Posted by keith4him

There is a compensation book for ministers printed annually. It lists the average compensation for churches of various sizes. For a church running between 100-200 the compensastion is about 82k a year if I remember.

I think that to be a good starting point. I do believe Paul's usage of "Don't Muzzle the Ox" to a good principle as well.

Keith, is that 82K including the cost/value of insurance, retirement benefits, etc., etc.?? Or is it 82K PLUS all of those things?

I'm thinking about the people who work at Jeep. They make a very healthy income. And even more when they work over-time. But a large part of their total package is their incredibly generous benefits package.

So if it's 82K INCLUDING benefits, in this area, that would be a pretty good figure. I'd say it would mean they'd take home $50-60K, plus they'd have their benefits. In most cases around here it would also include a parsonage and utilities on top of the salary. I've heard people complain that pastors make that much "when they don't even have to pay rent or a mortgage". But I remind them when I hear that we are paying for our houses right now while we are living in them. One day, most of these pastors will retire. And when they do, they will need a home to live in. So they'll need to have enough $$$'s saved so they can afford to pay for that home. I wouldn't want to see them having to start paying on a mortgage at 65 or 70 years of age!