From a guy who defends Catholic sprinkling two peas in a pod.
LOL
I do sincerely love you Bro. Epley.
You'll find "sprinkling" water as part of clensing throughout the Old Testament in the Law and even written about in the prophets. This was LONG before the Catholic Church. It's as ancient as dirt and if you read the Mishnah regarding mikveh (what most Christian scholars attribute to the origin of full immersion baptism) you'll notice that the Jewish writers admit that it was originally done via sprinkling the "waters of purification" or the "waters of sanctification" found in the brazen laver. Now, while I know it upsets the fruit basket of "Pentecostal tradition" those are the FACTS. But... who am I to upset all that tradition you put so much stock in?
Do a search on the word "sprinkle" or "sprinkling" using Biblegateway.com. It's mentioned more than most realize. Consider this - Throughout the Old Testament the mode of ceremonial cleansing was sprinkling or pouring. The ceremonial blood was sprinkled around the altar (Exodus 29:16, Exodus 20-21; Leviticus 1:5,11; Leviticus 16:14.). A leper who appeared for cleansing was sprinkled seven times (Leviticus 14:7), as was his house (v. 51). From a pint of oil, the priest also had to perform a sevenfold sprinkling before the LORD (v. 16). One who had touched a corpse would be rendered unclean unless the water of purification was sprinkled on him (Numbers 19:13). Levites were sprinkled for their cleansing and consecration as priests (Leviticus 8:30; Numbers 8:7,11). Most important to the subject of New Testament baptism, the members of the covenant community were sprinkled (Exodus 24:7-8).
Likewise, pouring is found as a frequent mode of ceremonial applications. Priests were ordained as such with the pouring of anointing oil (Exodus 29:7). Aaron himself was ordained with the pouring of oil (Leviticus 8:12; 21:10). In addition to sprinkling, sacrificial blood was also poured out at the altar (Exod. 29:12; Lev. 4:7,18,25,30,34; Deut. 12:27). Drink offerings were poured out (Exod. 37:16). Oil was poured on grain offerings (Lev. 2:1,6). And with the law of leprosy (mentioned above), the pint of oil was poured into the priest’s left palm (Lev. 14:15, 26).
So, if believing in sprinkling and pouring as valid modes of water baptism makes me Catholic, does believing in full immersion make you a Baptist???
From a guy who defends Catholic sprinkling two peas in a pod.
So, is submersion really more than symbolic? Or is it that the baptism can't be properly symbolic unless it's a submersion?
What happens if something, say a hand or part of the forehead, isn't quite submerged, accidentally? Is the whole thing invalid, or will that part of the person not make it to Heaven?
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
My friend if there was not a single historical record it would matter not remember those in control writes the history God keeps perfect records.
NOT ONE person has been saved since Pentecost without obeying Acts 2:38.
True. I'd like to mention that many Christians within the Catholic church down through the ages repented of sin, were water baptized, and even experienced spiritual "ecstasy" wherein they spoke unintelligibly and had visions. Most existed within Catholic tradition, but did they not obey Acts 2:38 by repenting, being water baptized, and filled with the Spirit? Sure, the traditional church only offered a threefold baptismal formula... but their hearts were still in obedience walking in all the light they had. Will God throw them into torments because some "man" said the wrong words over them???
Think Epley. I know that's challenging because then you have to walk by the Spirit. It's just too easy to lean on "tradition" and walk "the line" of modern Apostolic "denominations"... because it allows you to move on without really thinking about the issues.
You'll find "sprinkling" water as part of clensing throughout the Old Testament in the Law and even written about in the prophets. This was LONG before the Catholic Church. It's as ancient as dirt and if you read the Mishnah regarding mikveh (what most Christian scholars attribute to the origin of full immersion baptism) you'll notice that the Jewish writers admit that it was originally done via sprinkling the "waters of purification" or the "waters of sanctification" found in the brazen laver. Now, while I know it upsets the fruit basket of "Pentecostal tradition" those are the FACTS. But... who am I to upset all that tradition you put so much stock in?
Do a search on the word "sprinkle" or "sprinkling" using Biblegateway.com. It's mentioned more than most realize. Consider this - Throughout the Old Testament the mode of ceremonial cleansing was sprinkling or pouring. The ceremonial blood was sprinkled around the altar (Exodus 29:16, Exodus 20-21; Leviticus 1:5,11; Leviticus 16:14.). A leper who appeared for cleansing was sprinkled seven times (Leviticus 14:7), as was his house (v. 51). From a pint of oil, the priest also had to perform a sevenfold sprinkling before the LORD (v. 16). One who had touched a corpse would be rendered unclean unless the water of purification was sprinkled on him (Numbers 19:13). Levites were sprinkled for their cleansing and consecration as priests (Leviticus 8:30; Numbers 8:7,11). Most important to the subject of New Testament baptism, the members of the covenant community were sprinkled (Exodus 24:7-8).
Likewise, pouring is found as a frequent mode of ceremonial applications. Priests were ordained as such with the pouring of anointing oil (Exodus 29:7). Aaron himself was ordained with the pouring of oil (Leviticus 8:12; 21:10). In addition to sprinkling, sacrificial blood was also poured out at the altar (Exod. 29:12; Lev. 4:7,18,25,30,34; Deut. 12:27). Drink offerings were poured out (Exod. 37:16). Oil was poured on grain offerings (Lev. 2:1,6). And with the law of leprosy (mentioned above), the pint of oil was poured into the priest’s left palm (Lev. 14:15, 26).
So, if believing in sprinkling and pouring as valid modes of water baptism makes me Catholic, does believing in full immersion make you a Baptist???
NOTHING you posted here has ONE thing to do with NT water baptism.
So, is submersion really more than symbolic? Or is it that the baptism can't be properly symbolic unless it's a submersion?
What happens if something, say a hand or part of the forehead, isn't quite submerged, accidentally? Is the whole thing invalid, or will that part of the person not make it to Heaven?
Baptism-baptize- simply means to immerse or submerge it does NOT mean to sprinkle or pour. It is a burial-planting.
True. I'd like to mention that many Christians within the Catholic church down through the ages repented of sin, were water baptized, and even experienced spiritual "ecstasy" wherein they spoke unintelligibly and had visions. Most existed within Catholic tradition, but did they not obey Acts 2:38 by repenting, being water baptized, and filled with the Spirit? Sure, the traditional church only offered a threefold baptismal formula... but their hearts were still in obedience walking in all the light they had. Will God throw them into torments because some "man" said the wrong words over them???
Think Epley. I know that's challenging because then you have to walk by the Spirit. It's just too easy to lean on "tradition" and walk "the line" of modern Apostolic "denominations"... because it allows you to move on without really thinking about the issues.
If a person in the Catholic church-Mormon church-JW meeeting hall obeyed from the heart Acts 2:38 they were born again. However to be saved you must continue in His word.
Baptism-baptize- simply means to immerse or submerge it does NOT mean to sprinkle or pour.
Bro. Epley, the word "baptizo" (Gk.) is a robust word with multiple meanings. While yes, it is used to describe the process of submerging something it also means:
1) to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
2) to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean
with water, to wash one's self, bathe
3) to overwhelm
For example the term "baptizo" is used in relation to pouring water over one's hands:
Luke 11:38
And when the Pharisee saw it, he marvelled that he had not first washed (baptizo) before dinner.
According to Scripture one is "washed" (baptizo) if only water is allowed to run on their hands. As with "washing" today it can be done by submerging one's self in a bathtub or by allowing water to sprinkle from a shower or even by pouring from a container such as with a sink bath.
Quote:
It is a burial-planting.
Since we take on the likeness of Christ's burial in our baptism... when was Christ "planted"??? He wasn't, they washed his body by pouring water on it, wrapped it with spices, and placed him in a tomb.
If you have water poured over you, you've taken on a greater likeness to Christ's burial than if you're dunked.
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