Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume
From words like this, Pel, it looks like you are accusing me of baptismal regeneration. See what I mean?
You seem to infer here, for it is not totally clear what you are saying, that those who believe Jesus involved water baptism in "born of the water and of the Spirit" propose baptismal regeneration. The point actually is that SOME who actually DO believe baptismal regeneration see no place of faith in all of this. Yes, they use this verse, but they claim FAITH is not involved with baptism in this reference.
But those of us who believe this is indeed speaking of water baptism, and are not baptismal regenerationists, claim that this water baptism is useless without faith. We believe that our obedience to be baptized is the work that makes "faith that works" a present reality. Our faith includes belief that God actually does a circumcision of the heart while we are baptized in water. The action of baptism is not the saving element, though. This is what we have been trying to say over and over again. Baptism is just the inseparable work that comes along with the "faith that works".
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It's honestly a bit difficult to pin you down on this - and I haven't really even concerned myself with hanging any kind of tag on you anyway.
However: If some one were to say that water baptism is "essential" to the New Birth, then they are at least a "baptismal regenerationalist" in part and maybe in whole, such as the Campbellite groups.
Campbellites hold to the idea that God imparts the Spirit at the time a believer is baptized. They of course don't see "tongues" as an evidence of this. They do hold to the idea though, that the Holy Spirit comes upon an individual at the time of water baptism. This is perhaps one of the more extreme examples of baptismal regenerationalism in the Protestant world.
The RCC teaches that a "grace" is given with each sacrament bestowed by the Church. Baptism being one of those sacraments, a "grace" is bestowed that covers original sin (and sins that are "past" is the person is an adult) and "seals" the individual into the Body of Christ. There is much more, but the RCC practice isn't completely equivalent to the Campbellite doctrine. The Holy Spirit is "passed on" in the RCC directly through the laying on of hands from an ordained bishop who claims a direct apostolic descent from Jesus Christ and His apostles. It's sort of like a relay race with the Spirit of God in place of the baton. (This is one reason many bishops felt compelled to tolerate pedophile priests - because they need to whole system of "hand offs" intact for the Church to exist in the next generation. But that's a different matter).
So, those who do insist upon water baptism as a component or as the "complete package" of the New Birth (like the Campbellites) are to varying degrees, "baptismal regenerationalists."
Where you stand is completely up to you.
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