Many people would hate to see that fear and uncertainty leave their Christian lives. They thrive on compelling others to continuously strive for uncertain outcomes and hold these poor souls forever in a condition of debt.
The pastor won't have a horse farm to retire to unless he manipulates other souls into striving to pay a debt that was in fact paid for each of us long ago.
Thus, each of us are required to "offer up" our sons and daughters each and every day to sustain the money flow. It's barbarous. It's the linchpin in a stratified class system that seeks to maintain the flow of wealth from families and into one man's coffers.
This same system existed in another form in the Middle Ages. Vast hoards of gold and silver were siphoned from Northern Europe and into Italy and Rome. It was while one of those Northern Europeans, an Augustinian monk from Germany, was crawling on his hands and knees up the "Scala Santa" in Rome that he heard a voice speaking to him: "The just shall live by faith!"
The culmination of that "revelation" was that the flow of gold and silver ceased and the Renaissance and the Reformation spread throughout the world.
Hmmmm...interesting. Not to mention the whole Catholic's church idea of indulgences which prompted the Reformation.
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"Love God and do what you please"
-St. Augustine
sola Christus
sola gratia
sola fide
sola deo gloria
So. Are you deceived? Well, let's see. You are sincere, of course. You haven't maneuvered your thinking to dishonesty, or something blatantly awry, of course. So, by your reasoning, you can rest assured that you are not deceived. But here's the problem: nobody who sees things differently from you (me, for example) will ever think they are dishonest, either! I, for example, am 100% sincere in my quest for truth. And yet, here I am. Utterly deceived. And do you think any of those who cry "Lord, Lord" and are sent away will think they were dishonest?
It is pointless to take this subjectively and analyze each other and compare notes. Deceived people were dishonest at some point that moved God to give them over. So you and I cannot tell who they are by their words. You cannot tell if I am deceived, neither I you. But, even the Lord's prayer gives a remedy. We are to forever pray that God keep us on the narrow way and not let us go into the broad way, in as sincere a prayer as we can muster.
Another thing, though. If the Bible is true, then you are deceived. Right?
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Originally Posted by Jeffrey
Pel, Mike is saying Baptism saves us, so long as in view of the resurrection and done in faith. It's not a direct link, or an exclusive device. That's the way I'm understanding him.
Of course, I believe the Bible that we are saved by faith -- those things which follow are "because of" faith, and not "for faith" or "for salvation." Nor are they to "prove something to God."
Then how would you say baptism saves by the resurrection?
I agree baptism is not done FOR faith or "to prove something to God". But it is part of salvation nonetheless. As I stated, as soon as Peter said baptism saves by Christ's resurrection, baptism was made part of salvation. I see no other way to look at it.
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Originally Posted by Adino
MFBlume, since baptism saves are all who are baptized saved in God's eyes?
No. Some were baptized as a work for salvation, and that doesn't work, no pun intended.
Only those who experience a baptism as a result of genuine faith THAT WORKS are saved.
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
Mike, I really don't believe that that's even possible.
How do you define faith? And what does that mean for a person who "has faith" to you?
Why then does the book of Revelation say plagues will strike people and, for all that, they would still not repent? Why even comment on their refusal to repent if one cannot choose to repent or not of one's own volition? If one gets true faith and has no choice but to repent, removing it from a personal decision (ironic), then there is no reason in noting some do not repent. It should say God refused to give them true faith. But it put the onus on their shoulders and said they refused to repent.
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Originally Posted by Pelathais
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Originally Posted by mfblume
We get SOME one steppers thinking they get your point, when they do not stop to consider maybe they MISSED your point, and have ASSUMED that a box for your thoughts is your actual box that they have emphasized as being error, when not at all. And when actual beliefs are presented, the ears are closed and accusations of self contradiction fly.
uh... what?
Maybe only "SOME" people get my point, however I don't think ANYONE would be capable of getting that last one by you.
When I said YOU, I did not mean Pelathais. I actually meant three steppers. It was a generalization from a "three stepper" perspective..
IOW, you (Pelathais, a one stepper) misunderstood my point, and I claimed you assumed you knew it due to a boxing-in concept you think I engaged in with my beliefs. When I actually clarified my point and spoke of the man driving in the car to church to be baptized, you claimed I contradicted myself. I was explaining that there is no contradiction if you actually got my point. Neither of us are stupid, bro. It's just that it is sometimes hard to relate viewpoints, and when that occurs the recipient of the explanation thinks contradiction abounds where there actually is none. For some reason you think I am insulting you when I claim you cannot get my point. Notofoworks is touchy that way, too.
Anyway, I would like to get notofworks to responds to my days old post of righteousness and how it really can get complex. He won't answer.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
Brethren, explain these passages: Mark 16:16 KJV He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
The repeated phrase omits and integral part of salvation. It is known that baptism is an act that joins hands with believing faith. It is part of the picture almost. Thus, it is often said in such context (including Acts 2:38)
I believe Mark 16:16 is a verse that perfectly shows the example of how faith THAT works is what saves. Baptism in such an instance is not a work of salvation. But the text does not say He that believeth and is sagved shall be baptized. It says belief PLUS baptism saves. I believe repentance PLUS baptism remits sins, being the same message. Acts 2:38. If one does not believe, then one will not be baptized, hence, the lack of mentioning baptism in the damnation reference.
Baptism defintiely joins hands with faith. And without faith it is useless, answering Adino's question as to whether or not I think all baptized people are saved.
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Colossians 2:11-12 KJV In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: (12) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
What does Paul say in Romans about circumcision -- particularly as it related to Abraham, and what we have in common with Abram? Romans 4. This scripture clearly draws a picture of Paul's picturesque analogy of "being in Christ." Both burial (going down in water) and resurrection (coming up from water) are seen here. None of which are systematic as a theological vice as much as they are a great demonstration of what is happening. Neither do I believe baptism to be "purely symbolic" as some on here do.
Circumcision is something done as a result of faith THAT works in Abraham's case. Righteousness is indeed present in true unfeigned faith before circumcision in Abraham's day. But the faith Abraham had was faith THAT WOULD WORK. Imagine, as we have tried to explain so many times, Abraham refusing circumcision after he "believed". Such a "faith" would be dead faith, and God would not have made him righteous in seeing that workless faith.
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Acts 22:16 KJV And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
"washing away sins" is not done by baptism....
But it is done AT baptism.
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we know this. If one asks he will forgive. By our faith in God we are seen justified, meaning we are pardoned ("washed") of our record of wrong -- and the second part of justification is reconciliation of relationship. Again, we limit Paul to literal speech, turning his every expression into a systematic theology, which it is not.
No, that is not the point I make. Paul is simply saying his baptism was a part of his sins being washed away. Why else would he even mention baptism if this was not the case? No one was there except Paul and Anannias and God, which was the same case with the Ethiopian Eunuch. It had to be done for more than a show.
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We see here another picture of the life coming to Christ -- they are always baptized -- and what one pictures is someone stepping away from the past and "into Christ." Neither is confession the "way in."
Why be baptized in such demanding requirements? Why even mention this if baptism is NOT SOMEHOW PART of salvation and washing away sins? We can say that there is systematic theology presented, but pelase explain why baptism is mentioned here, then. I am not getting answers from you as to WHY.
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Romans 6:3-4 KJV Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? (4) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Doug Moo's thoughts/comments on this passage are incredible. Encourage you to read them. Paul is explaining a concept to Jews, using things Jews would understand. Again, he often uses baptism as being the most visible manifestation of what has happened. I say it again though that I don't believe it's "just symbolism" but that in baptism is a real awareness and presence of Jesus. It's a statement not just in flesh to others, but also in Spirit. But it's not the "way in."
You are closer here than anyone else who claims to be a onestepper, I think. I am not saying baptism in and of itself is the "way in". But WITH FAITH from a heart acting in faithful obeidence, IT IS PART OF THE "WAY IN".
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1 Peter 3:21 KJV The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
This verse has been treated with worthy commentary often on AFF.
I really do not want to hunt around the entire forum to find those thoughts.
Thanks!
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
It is pointless to take this subjectively and analyze each other and compare notes. Deceived people were dishonest at some point that moved God to give them over. So you and I cannot tell who they are by their words. You cannot tell if I am deceived, neither I you.
You don't know if I'm deceived?
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But, even the Lord's prayer gives a remedy. We are to forever pray that God keep us on the narrow way and not let us go into the broad way, in as sincere a prayer as we can muster.
Another thing, though. If the Bible is true, then you are deceived. Right?
Yes.
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
It is pointless to take this subjectively and analyze each other and compare notes. Deceived people were dishonest at some point that moved God to give them over. So you and I cannot tell who they are by their words. You cannot tell if I am deceived, neither I you. But, even the Lord's prayer gives a remedy. We are to forever pray that God keep us on the narrow way and not let us go into the broad way, in as sincere a prayer as we can muster.
. . .
You don't know if I'm deceived?
. . .
Anyway, I didn't ask if you thought I was deceived. And I didn't offer my opinion on whether you are deceived. The analysis I did was based on your claims of how to know you are not deceived. So, never mind my analysis:
Are you deceived?
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Anyway, I didn't ask if you thought I was deceived. And I didn't offer my opinion on whether you are deceived. The analysis I did was based on your claims of how to know you are not deceived. So, never mind my analysis:
Are you deceived?
Oh, wait. I sorta did. Well, I said I was utterly deceived, which would be (should be?) your opinion of me.
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
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