AGAIN!!! (sigh) Let me know when you are going to discuss something.
Anyway, so interesting why one steppers will not say baptism saves by Christ's resurrection, unless forced to quote scripture.
No one "forced" me to quote 1 Peter 3:21 - I brought it up to show how "getting wet" saves no one. It is clearly the "resurrection of Jesus Christ" that saves us in 1 Peter 3:21. You said as much yourself.
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Originally Posted by mfblume
Meanwhile alleged "three steppers" use these passages all the time, as well as those that seem to one steppers to promote only faith.
So many passages like this will only be repeated by onestep believers when someone points them out to them. The language of the scriptures in these cases is otherwise absent. Be baptized and wash away thy sins. No one stepper would use those words unless reading Acts 22:16. One steppers will not respond to questions of how to be saved with Acts 2:38. The question has not changed but somehow the answer did.
Empty rhetoric. I brought up 1 Peter 3:21 in this thread, not you and not any of the other "3 Steppers."
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Originally Posted by mfblume
No question by one steppers would be given to someone as Paul asked about Spirit and Water Baptism in Acts 19.
And yet your 3rd grade English teacher might have some questions about that sentence. What are you trying to say?
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Originally Posted by mfblume
This is my point. The emphasis upon no need for baptism in salvation simply leaves these folks void of speaking the same thing the early church ministers spoke about.
uh... you okay? The "early church ministers" clearly emphasized the cross and the work of Jesus Christ as being the Gospel and the means of salvation. You have not even attempted to to engage the many, many citations I have made to Scripture. And, when I responded to your list of Scripture passages - rather thoroughly demolishing your arguments - you completely ignored me except to start in with the taunting and name calling.
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Originally Posted by mfblume
We get SOME one steppers thinking they get your point, when they do not stop to consider maybe they MISSED your point, and have ASSUMED that a box for your thoughts is your actual box that they have emphasized as being error, when not at all. And when actual beliefs are presented, the ears are closed and accusations of self contradiction fly.
uh... what?
Maybe only "SOME" people get my point, however I don't think ANYONE would be capable of getting that last one by you.
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Originally Posted by mfblume
The fact is that baptism is part of salvation if Peter said baptism saves by the resurrection of Jesus. It's right there in black and white! Had baptism never been intended as PART of salvation, the two words "baptism saves" would never be associated as they are in Peter's words.
People quote Peter saying "baptism saves by the resurrection of Jesus" and then say baptism does not save. Bottom line: If baptism had no part at all in salvation, then Peter would not have said baptism saves by the resurrection of Jesus.
Well, I am glad that you at least are one of those who did somehow manage to get my point. Thanks!
I, for one, would be interested in your "hell thoughts", for this is a troubling subject for me, personally. As for me, I don't care where you talk about it...here or its own thread...but I'd be interested to hear your thoughts concerning hell AND heaven and their differentiating concepts in the Testaments.
Jeffrey's points are well-spoken and completely valid...we can't "prove" but we can "believe" and ultimately, that's what we've chosen to do. Yes, I have personal experiences that prove God completely to me.
I know this may irk some of the bible-thumpers, but the bible doesn't prove God to me. It confirms it. But with the bible's confirmation of God, come the verses that make me scratch my head.
NFS, you're one here who seems to type out very well my heart...my heart that was unable to properly verbalize it. So I look forward to hearing what you have to say.
NOW and Jeff,
I've debated the Hell issue thoroughly and it appears to me, somewhere within the realm of translating, copying, and the Religious getting their dirty little fingers upon Scripture, we now have this unfathomable place of torment for all who choose another "Way" or plan of Salvation. Of course, this depends on what Church you go to.
Think about it; if you remove Hell from the Plan of Salvation, what happens?
1. A person no longer follows the idea or plan of redemption because of the consequence. This is HUGE! So many are afraid to question or change because Hell awaits those who do. So, Faith actually becomes bondage. A prison of fear.
2. The heart of man/woman would approach God from an entirely different perspective. The preacher could no longer use this "Heavy" to keep the sheep under submission, and, we would no longer tell others that "Unless you repent, you will BURN". I see this as an antidote to our concept and Faith in God. People would begin to develop a loving relationship with God based upon the Family structure that we can see. For instance, how can we relate to a Father that torches His very own Creation, not for one day, but forever? We can't, so the distance between us and the Lord grows because that's the only way we accept Hell and its ferocity.
3. Life, love, and compassion for people would change. No longer would backsliders be considered doomed. Hope becomes more real and honest because deep down we know, all fail, some at the point of death. WE don't use the unseen dimensions to inflict fear, releasing us from manipulating people which is absolute freedom. We stop the torturous mind games, and begin to base our love for God on REAL LIFE. What we can see.
When Hell is in the equation, we are WAY more judgmental. Those "SINNERS" are heading for what they deserve. Notice, the extreme Religions and power hungry cults will pound the pulpit with Hell Fire. Obey or burn. Fear is the permeating result of this place, and the perfect ploy to program our minds to NEVER question.
IMO, Hell puts God in not only a bad light, but an abusive one. As a father, I would never send my children to a place where they would burn for eternity, no matter what they did. This life is tough, and many things can come our way that might lead us astray. Human beings are weak, and the Church is not exempt from weak people. Man gets into trouble on every level of life, and His only Hope is mercy from a Creator who see's clearly that we all fail, cry, and wish for a body that can't be tempted.
I see on this Forum debate after debate on subjects you would think would be concluded by now. But man will argue till he dies, from politics to Religion, where our culture molds us into individuals that are unique and different. It really makes me laugh when we say, "God is not the Author of confusion", yet we are all confused about our Faith. To me the reason for the confusion is simple; we can't let go of the "Unseen". As long as the unseen is documented as a fact, the arguing will never cease because how can we prove what we can't see, feel or touch.
As far as Scripture is concerned, many things MUST be considered when talking about Hell. Like I’ve said, Eternal Damnation is NOT in the Old Testament, PERIOD. If God wanted the World to know that they are going to Hell, the Book of Genesis would have clearly pointed this out. Also, none of the original manuscripts of the New Testament exist. They are ALL copies, written in Greek, the official language of Rome during all this “Translating” and the development of the Catholic Church.
I’m so deeply bothered by the fact that we are expected to believe in extreme and diabololical things that we can’t see. If God wanted this to be so, it would seem apparent that proof of such places could be validated somehow. We are fallible enough with what we can see, let alone with Worlds we can’t.
An answer to this crisis? Not sure I have one. One thing that has helped me with understanding is to simply validate by experience. Be more fact oriented. If I’m going to call God my Father, how do I see and feel about this role in life? If we are His Children, how do I love and care for my own children? To be honest, developing a relationship with Someone I can’t see, touch, or talk to is more than difficult. But when I hold my wife tightly when she is hurting, or we spend an evening under candlelight, I try with everything that is inside of me to think of God.
Hell makes absolutely no sense, and if God is all knowing, to allow man to populate this World so he can simply die within a few years and then spend eternity screaming in torment is beyond crazy. Hell just doesn’t fit, and I think we need to admit that.
__________________
"Resolved: That all men should live to the glory of God. Resolved, secondly: That whether or not anyone else does, I will." ~Jonathan Edwards
"The only man who has the right to say he is justified by grace alone is the man who has left all to follow Christ." ~Dietrich Bonheoffer, The Cost of Discipleship
"Preachers who should be fishing for men are now too often fishing for compliments from men." ~Leonard Ravenhill
Hi ya, Jason. Some would say that although Simon was wrong in attempting to purchase the ability to impart some aspect of the Spirit, this shortcoming had no bearing on his condition as a believer. Others would question whether he ever truly had faith in something other than the exhibition of signs and wonders. If Simon truly had faith in Christ, then he was saved. If his faith was ultimately in something other than Christ, then he was not.
My question deals with those who truly do have a genuine faith in Christ and who are baptized. I would consider ALL these as being saved. In fact, I consider ALL who truly believe as saved in the eyes of God even before they are baptized - How this does not contradict what I've said earlier I will explain after a while.
Again, for those who believe 'baptism saves'.... will you agree that ALL who truly believe and are baptized ARE SAVED whether or not they have spoken in tongues?
Again, for those who believe 'baptism saves'.... will you agree that ALL who truly believe and are baptized ARE SAVED whether or not they have spoken in tongues?
Basically yes. I believe the proper response to Acts 2:38 is repentance and water baptism (Acts 2:41)
__________________
"Resolved: That all men should live to the glory of God. Resolved, secondly: That whether or not anyone else does, I will." ~Jonathan Edwards
"The only man who has the right to say he is justified by grace alone is the man who has left all to follow Christ." ~Dietrich Bonheoffer, The Cost of Discipleship
"Preachers who should be fishing for men are now too often fishing for compliments from men." ~Leonard Ravenhill
My good friend, T. When a person is mistaken it is because they are deceived. And if they are deceived it is because their hearts were not right as far as sincerity goes at a point in time, which moved God to allow one to be given over. God only lets those be given over when they are in a normal state of being, as everyone is, but then for some reason as some given point in time they maneuver their own thinking to dishonesty or something blatantly awry. Read Romans 1. Those who remain honest with themselves and with God are not given over to deception. One has to personally and willingly change one's thoughts to God-dishonouring ones or wicked and dishonest ones.
Romans 1:18-26 KJV For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; (19) Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. (20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: (21) Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. (22) Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, (23) And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. (24) Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: (25) Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. (26) For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
My good friend, T. When a person is mistaken it is because they are deceived. And if they are deceived it is because their hearts were not right as far as sincerity goes at a point in time, which moved God to allow one to be given over. God only lets those be given over when they are in a normal state of being, as everyone is, but then for some reason as some given point in time they maneuver their own thinking to dishonesty or something blatantly awry. Read Romans 1. Those who remain honest with themselves and with God are not given over to deception. One has to personally and willingly change one's thoughts to God-dishonouring ones or wicked and dishonest ones.
Romans 1:18-26 KJV For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; (19) Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. (20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: (21) Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. (22) Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, (23) And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. (24) Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: (25) Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. (26) For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
So. Are you deceived? Well, let's see. You are sincere, of course. You haven't maneuvered your thinking to dishonesty, or something blatantly awry, of course. So, by your reasoning, you can rest assured that you are not deceived. But here's the problem: nobody who sees things differently from you (me, for example) will ever think they are dishonest, either! I, for example, am 100% sincere in my quest for truth. And yet, here I am. Utterly deceived. And do you think any of those who cry "Lord, Lord" and are sent away will think they were dishonest?
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
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