The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by mfblume

HAHAHA. RIGHT!

They believe in grace to cause us to be saved, without so much as our choice, and with all that overcoming power over human will, as though we really had no will, they do not believe grace can empower us in victory over sin!

May I interrupt this theological and self-satisfactory high-fiving, to point out that "The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save."

Romans 4:2 Was it because of his good deeds that God accepted him? If so, he would have had something to boast about. But from God's point of view Abraham had no basis at all for pride.


Romans 4:3 For the Scriptures tell us, "Abraham believed God, so God declared him to be righteous."


Romans 4:4 When people work, their wages are not a gift. Workers earn what they receive.


Romans 4:5 But people are declared righteous because of their faith, not because of their work.

[mfblume]

LT,

Romans 6, which speaks of baptism by the way, teaches that we have died with Christ when baptized into His death to such a degree that we can present ourselves alive from the dead, since we died with Christ to sin and arose with Him, for God to empower us to dominate sin in our lives. Calvinism and Lutheranism deny this. But Paul said Christ died to -- of all things -- sin. And we died with Him to -- of all things -- sin.

Romans 6:10-11 KJV For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. (11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The whole point is that the work of the cross in our lives in dying with Christ, rising with Him and being seated with Him over all powers, including sin, has caused us to be veritable powerhouses if we can only accept this and act upon it by faith.

If people believe they cannot have victory over sin, they will find a way to fulfill it. We look forward to the things we expect. If we expect to sin, we will. Romans 6 removes the expectancy to sin away from us by walking through the understanding that we are dead to sin to engender faith in us, so why should we expect it to dominate us all our lives if we have HIS GRACE upon us to empower us over it?

This is the victory of the cross after the cross saved us.

I like what one teacher said. The blood was shed ON EARTH to save us, and the BLOOD IS SPRINKLED IN HEAVEN to empower us with FAITH of HIS WORK that saved us to LIKEWISE keep us above sin. Paul also called this walking after the Spirit. So long as we walk after the Spirit, and not the flesh, by not looking to the flesh to make itself ANYTHING powerful, God can continue to work as He first worked to save us. In both cases, it takes our faith.

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by notofworks

May I interrupt this theological and self-satisfactory high-fiving, to point out that "The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save."

Romans 4:2 Was it because of his good deeds that God accepted him? If so, he would have had something to boast about. But from God's point of view Abraham had no basis at all for pride.


Romans 4:3 For the Scriptures tell us, "Abraham believed God, so God declared him to be righteous."


Romans 4:4 When people work, their wages are not a gift. Workers earn what they receive.


Romans 4:5 But people are declared righteous because of their faith, not because of their work.

ehhh when you think of the POWER of his resurrection that we experience to overcome LITERALLY! high five is weak.... it makes you want to...




oh and who is the "one" Paul is talking about in verse 5. Also are these "believers" in the church Paul is talking about? Also what works are Paul talking about? Mans works of self initiative or response to his Word?

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness."
Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.
Rom 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,
Rom 4:6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by mfblume

LT,

Romans 6, which speaks of baptism by the way, teaches that we have died with Christ when baptized into His death to such a degree that we can present ourselves alive from the dead, since we died with Christ to sin and arose with Him, for God to empower us to dominate sin in our lives. Calvinism and Lutheranism deny this. But Paul said Christ died to -- of all things -- sin. And we died with Him to -- of all things -- sin.

Romans 6:10-11 KJV For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. (11) Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The whole point is that the work of the cross in our lives in dying with Christ, rising with Him and being seated with Him over all powers, including sin, has caused us to be veritable powerhouses if we can only accept this and act upon it by faith.

If people believe they cannot have victory over sin, they will find a way to fulfill it. We look forward to the things we expect. If we expect to sin, we will. Romans 6 removes the expectancy to sin away from us by walking through the understanding that we are dead to sin to engender faith in us, so why should we expect it to dominate us all our lives if we have HIS GRACE upon us to empower us over it?

This is the victory of the cross after the cross saved us.

I like what one teacher said. The blood was shed ON EARTH to save us, and the BLOOD IS SPRINKLED IN HEAVEN to empower us with FAITH of HIS WORK that saved us to LIKEWISE keep us above sin. Paul also called this walking after the Spirit. So long as we walk after the Spirit, and not the flesh, by not looking to the flesh to make itself ANYTHING powerful, God can continue to work as He first worked to save us. In both cases, it takes our faith.

yep... we become new and servants of the most high God. If we are still walking in sin we are not his servant. As the Spirit will not lead us to sin. As pointed out we are now not debtors to sin anymore but to Christ by death. Which is unto covenant! Covenant brings us into a newness of purpose and life. Thus we are dead to the past and all things have become NEW IN HIM!

Rom 6:2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?

oh wait... I can't stop sinning isthe foundation of this theology and the ABOVE clearly shows Paul was showing power over such. Paul was not talking about postionally righteous but PRACTICAL righteousness that is brought about by the empowering grace we realize by coming INTO and ABIDING in him and HIM through US.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

yep... we become new and servants of the most high God. If we are still walking in sin we are not his servant. As the Spirit will not lead us to sin. As pointed out we are now not debtors to sin anymore but to Christ by death. Which is unto covenant! Covenant brings us into a newness of purpose and life. Thus we are dead to the past and all things have become NEW IN HIM!

Rom 6:2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?

oh wait... I can't stop sinning isthe foundation of this theology and the ABOVE clearly shows Paul was showing power over such. Paul was not talking about postionally righteous but PRACTICAL righteousness that is brought about by the empowering grace we realize by coming INTO and ABIDING in him and HIM through US.

AMEN!!!

It seems practical righteousness is absent from those who propose any aberrant teaching apart from the truth of the cross the bible is really trying to relate. Things practical make all the world of a difference. LORD, teach me Your Way!

So, the work of the cross saves and continues to work in victory over sin. First, victory FROM SINS, and then victory OVER SIN.

Someone once pointed out that SINS (the acts) are the issues from Romans 1 up to the middle of chapter 5, and then it switches to speak about SIN (the principle).

[notofworks]

This is funny.

Why don't you two do a couple of laps around the sanctuary and when you're finished, start shouting.



(Admin, can we please get a smilie of a guy frantically running around the church?)

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by notofworks

This is funny.

Why don't you two do a couple of laps around the sanctuary and when you're finished, start shouting.



(Admin, can we please get a smilie of a guy frantically running around the church?)

I second the motion!

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

Let me put it to you this way....

God according to scripture and prophecy gives us a heart of flesh so that we will do his commandments.

1) I don't believe in total depravity you DON'T?? Partial? Almost TOTAL? Where are you on the continuum? Marred by sin but not depraved?
2) our works are not the source of justice for our sin. the atonement of christ is.
3) our obedience has a direct affect on our relationship and standing with Christ. We are either true to the purchase price for eternal life or not and we will be judged faithful or wanting.
4) Our obedience is not the source of grace though grace is only given to the humble What does the second half mean? How am I "humble?" There is a condition for offered grace? What do you think the scripture means on that?
5) We cannot receive the promise without obedience and judged "just" to our call and then chosen from those whom are called. Did Abram have a promise in Gen 12 before the rest of the story?
6) It is by the power of his Spirit we become perfect in our work instead of the reasoning and wading the waters of confusion of the mind of how to obey God's law.
7) The Spirit bears witness with our spirit if we are being responsive to him and if not it is unto the flesh and death. God cannot have pleasure or dwell(have relationship) with a heart at enmity with him. This is basic relationship law. The Spirit will still compel to turn but dwelling is a matter of synergistic communion.

Was my heart at enmity with God when he bestowed righteousness and grace upon me? The Spirit's action is conditional upon ours? Through the cross, are we still at enmity with God?

Thanks for your response, TL. In the middle of a paper on justification right now and thought I'd tag back in here.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

I) God - Lutherans believe in the Triune God and reject other interpretations regarding the nature of God.

uh they can't really explain it either so this is amusing.

II) Original Sin - Lutherans believe that the nature of man is sinful, described as being without fear of God, without trust of God and with concupiscence. The only 'cure' for sin is to be reborn through Baptism and the Holy Spirit.

The first part is contradictive to 18. It's a compromise.

III) The Son of God - Lutherans believe in the incarnation, that is, the union of the fully human with the fully divine in the person of Jesus. Jesus Christ alone brings about the reconciliation of humanity with God.

about time something good is said.

IV) Justification By Faith - Man cannot be justified before God through our own abilities; we are wholly reliant on Jesus Christ for reconciliation with God. (This is often described as the one article by which the "Lutheran church stands or falls".)

own abilities must be defined. does it mean outside of God's request or simply our own initiative. If it is a reference to works of our own initiative I agree but I doubt it.




V) The Office of Preaching Lutherans believe that to see to it that the gospel of Jesus Christ is proclaimed throughout the world, Christ has established his office of the holy ministry.
VI) Of The New Obedience - Lutherans believe that good deeds of Christians are the fruits of faith and salvation, not a price paid for them.

While we are at it let's just throw out Christ's Word that receiving the kingdom of God is like purchasing a field or a great pearl. Also let's ingore basic understanding of contract law and how it works.

VII) Of The Church Lutherans believe that there is one holy Christian Church, and it is found wherever the gospel is preached in its truth and purity and the sacraments are administered according to the gospel.
VIII) What The Church Is Despite what hypocrisy may exist in the church (and among men), the Word and the Sacraments are always valid because they are instituted by Christ, no matter what the sins may be of the man who administers them.
IX) Of Baptism Lutherans believe that Baptism is necessary for salvation, and that through Baptism is offered the grace of God. Children are baptized as an offering to them of God's grace.

1/2 right

X) Of the Lord's Supper Lutherans believe that Christ's body and blood is truly present in with and under the bread and wine of the sacrament, and reject those that teach otherwise.
XI) Of Confession Lutherans believe that private absolution should remain in the church, though a believer does not need to enumerate all of his sins as it is impossible for a man to enumerate all of the sins for which he should be forgiven.
XII) Of Repentance Repentance comes in two parts: in contrition for sins committed according to the Law and through faith offered through the Gospel. A believer can never be free from sin, nor live outside of the grace of God.
XIII) Of the Use of the Sacraments The Sacraments (Baptism and the Eucharist) are physical manifestations of God's Word and his commitment to us. The sacraments are never just physical elements, but have God's word and promises bound to them.
XIV) Of Ecclesiastical Order Lutherans only allow those who are "rightly called" to administer the Sacraments.
XV) Of Ecclesiastical Usages Lutherans believe that church holidays, calendars and festivals are useful for religious observance, but that observance and ritual is not necessary for salvation. Human traditions (such as observances, fasts, distinctions in eating meats) that are taught as a way to "merit" grace work in opposition to the Gospel.
XVI) Of Civil Affairs Secular governments and vocations are considered to be part of God's natural orders; Christians are free to serve in government, the military and engage in the business and vocations of the world. Laws are to be followed unless they are commandments to sin.
XVII) Of Christ's Return to Judgment Lutherans believe that Christ will return to judge the world and all men; the 'godly' will be given everlasting joy, the 'ungodly' will be condemned. This article rejects notions of the earthly kingdom of the godly, or that Christ's judgment will not be final.
XVIII) Of Free Will Lutherans believe that we have free will in the realm of "civil righteousness" (or "things subject to reason"), but that we do not have free will in "spiritual righteousness". In other words, we are free to choose and act in every regard except for the choice of salvation. Faith is not the work of men, but of the Holy Spirit.

This is totaly ignorant and stupid while being contradictive.

XIX) Of the Cause of Sin God does not cause people to sin — sin is instead the work of the 'ungodly and the devil'. (i.e. our selfish concerns of this world)
XX) Of Good Works The Lutheran notion of justification by faith does not somehow condemn good works; our faith causes us to good works as a sign of our justification (or salvation), not a requirement for salvation.

This clearly ignores the whole of scripture and that works are the very essence of judgment of what "faithfulness" is. This also fails as it makes salvation ONLY a single realized point in time vs a whole view of a promise to be realized by judgment in the end. Typical failure of understanding Abraham and WAY over reaching what Gen 15:6 is about. Promises and covenants mean rights to obtain. Abraham had conditions, Jesus gave conditions and faithfulness is always the judge of obtaining the promise BY THE CONDITIONS of the contract!

XXI) Of the Worship of the Saints Lutherans keep the saints, not as saviors or intercessors to God, but rather as examples and inspirations to our own faith and life.

Are you citing part of the Confession or where are you citing from?

Contractual law. I think our hugest blunder is to see God through our constructed grids.

TL are you a Triumphalist? Do you believe we can attain perfection? How "faithful" must I be to deserve to be saved?

What I have now in salvation, is it not also futuristic? Is my name not written in the Book of Life now? Do you not have comfort in and security in the promise?

Is grace "you do this and I'll do this" or is grace "I've done this so you can do this?"

[mfblume]

Yes. More smilies are needed. Running the aisles smilies, casting out devils smilies and anti-liturgy smilies.