Good points! I would alter my thoughts then to say Spirit baptism delivers us from a state of death.
If Spirit reception saves us from spiritual death, what does baptism save us from?
If your answer is "SIN," then how can it be theologically sound to say God grants spiritual life to those who still have the cause of spiritual death imputed to them? Case in point.... Cornelius or anyone else gifted the Spirit of life prior to baptism (which, btw, I would say includes everyone who believes).
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Romans 10 must be understood in light of its context.
Paul makes very clear distinction between an internal believing with the heart and an external confession with the mouth. With the heart man believes unto righteousness. I understand this to be a righteousness God alone sees because he alone knows the heart of man. Those who believe are justified of all things and God who knows the heart gives the Spirit to those who believe bearing witness to their faith in the Gospel (Acts 13:38-39; Acts 15:7-9).
Those who have faith in the Gospel preached confess with their mouth their faith and are to be considered as saved by the Church community at large.
Again, if Spirit reception saves us from spiritual death, what does baptism save us from?
The word "Righteous" can cover a lot of territory. The "Just" in the Old Testament and the word "Righteous" in the New Testament can be interchangeable.
Right.
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Righteousness can be obedience. Romans 5:17 seems to point to a right standing with God while the Matthew 5 reference seems to have more to do with obedience.
Actually I think Matt 54's reference is fulfilled in Romans 5's experience of receiving this gift.
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So what is your point? You keep coming back to "Righteousness", so go ahead and make your point because I'm not figuring out your code.
You wondered what I meant earlier in associating righteousness with salvation, making it seem you did not have a concept of how righteousness is involved in salvation -- or at least you never said what relationship the two have together. It was just that you looked as though I was from Mars when speaking about righteousness and salvation together. So I am trying to determine what relationship you think righteousness has at all.
Are you equivocating salvation and righteousness? Maybe you are.
You give hints of something you are thinking, but do not explain your beliefs on it in such statements.
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I'm not sure that I said that "works are something like helping an old lady across the street" as a blanket all-inclusive statement. I believe I was talking about the concept of works bettering our position with God for salvation. I'm not sure what helping an old lady across the street has to do with baptism.
Well you mentioned salvational baptism is salvation by works, and then you said "works" are like walking an old lady across the street when you claimed repentance is not a "work"..
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
If Spirit reception saves us from spiritual death, what does baptism save us from?
This departs from the traditional UPC idea, but baptism is not just burial. It is death. We are baptized into Christ's death. And it also involves resurrection. Col 2:11-12 shows that baptism has us both circumcised from the body of sins of the flesh as well as being risen with Him. Baptism saves us from the OLD MAN, technically. It causes us to be DEAD TO SIN through Christ. How can baptism play a part in death to sin if it is not required for salvation? But God still grants righteousness before baptism since faith THAT WORKS will have us baptized, and I think that is what it means by syaing baptism saves by the resurrection of Jesus. This gets back to the old debate about what the baptism in Romans 6 is all about.
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If your answer is "SIN," then how can it be theologically sound to say God grants spiritual life to those who still have the cause of spiritual death imputed to them? Case in point.... Cornelius or anyone else gifted the Spirit of life prior to baptism (which, btw, I would say includes everyone who believes).
The only way I see this makes any sense is that it is contractual. God's seal is Spirit baptism -- that is, it's His signature on the contract. Ours is water baptism, analagous to circumcision in the OT. The gentiles received His Spirit BEFORE water baptism, as you indicate. But they were still in need of water baptism as per Peter's COMMAND. It was no option whatsoever. And since I already stated adamantly that God imputes righteousness to us upon our FAITH THAT WORKS, baptism can in no way be regenerational, despite Pel's accusation that I believe a form of baptismal regeneration, when such a thing like Cornelius' Spirit baptism occurred before he was water baptized. God sees the FAITH THAT WORKS in men like Cornleius, and allows for Spirit baptism due to having imputed Cornelius with righteousness upon such faith, and water baptism must still be carried out, though, leaving Peter unable to depart from them without having baptized them since it is partly contractual as well as something that manifests faith that works.
Paul makes very clear distinction between an internal believing with the heart and an external confession with the mouth. With the heart man believes unto righteousness. I understand this to be a righteousness God alone sees because he alone knows the heart of man. Those who believe are justified of all things and God who knows the heart gives the Spirit to those who believe bearing witness to their faith in the Gospel (Acts 13:38-39; Acts 15:7-9).
Amen, but Paul is not giving systematic theology in Romans 10.
If Acts 2 is not systematic theology, then we have none!
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
The most immediate recent posts somehow make me think of demons in cuddly, teddy bear costumes. lol
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
Actually I think Matt 54's reference is fulfilled in Romans 5's experience of receiving this gift.
You wondered what I meant earlier in associating righteousness with salvation, making it seem you did not have a concept of how righteousness is involved in salvation -- or at least you never said what relationship the two have together. It was just that you looked as though I was from Mars when speaking about righteousness and salvation together. So I am trying to determine what relationship you think righteousness has at all.
You give hints of something you are thinking, but do not explain your beliefs on it in such statements.
Well you mentioned salvational baptism is salvation by works, and then you said "works" are like walking an old lady across the street when you claimed repentance is not a "work"..
I'm confused a little by this...In one place you referred to Matthew 54 and I can't find it, and also, my "handle", "NotofWorks" appears as "Notofowrks" and I have no idea how that could happen. Weird. And I still haven't figured out how to do the multiple quotes. But anyway:
This is probably a little too bottom-lineish, but I love the bottom line...saves time. I believe salvation brings righteousness, but righteousness does not bring us salvation, i.e., we can't improve ourselves in order to get saved, for example, "I quitting sinning, therefore I spoke in tongues." Our righteousness is as filthy rags.
I'm confused a little by this...In one place you referred to Matthew 54 and I can't find it, and also, my "handle", "NotofWorks" appears as "Notofowrks" and I have no idea how that could happen. Weird. And I still haven't figured out how to do the multiple quotes. But anyway:
This is probably a little too bottom-lineish, but I love the bottom line...saves time. I believe salvation brings righteousness, but righteousness does not bring us salvation, i.e., we can't improve ourselves in order to get saved, for example, "I quitting sinning, therefore I spoke in tongues." Our righteousness is as filthy rags.
I have come to a conclusion,
After observing you (notofworks) and realizing that you don't even really believe the Bible, (you said yourself that it is not the Infallible Word of God) ...why do folks like Blume (of course Blume spiritualizes everything..) and others (myself included) even bother discussing the Bible with you....it is like trying to argue with a Mormon or a JW...they don't believe the Bible either and it is a waste of time to try to prove something to them out of a book they discount.
After observing you (notofworks) and realizing that you don't even really believe the Bible, (you said yourself that it is not the Infallible Word of God) ...why do folks like Blume (of course Blume spiritualizes everything..) and others (myself included) even bother discussing the Bible with you....it is like trying to argue with a Mormon or a JW...they don't believe the Bible either and it is a waste of time to try to prove something to them out of a book they discount.
Deadeye, I wish you posted more because you're fun. But when did I say the bible was not the infallible Word of God?
I'm confused a little by this...In one place you referred to Matthew 54 and I can't find it,...
From an earlier post to which I referred in using a typo...
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Originally Posted by notofworks
Righteousness can be obedience. Romans 5:17 seems to point to a right standing with God while the Matthew 5 reference seems to have more to do with obedience.
Anyway, the righteousness that exceeds that of the pharisees is God's righteousness.
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This is probably a little too bottom-lineish, but I love the bottom line...saves time. I believe salvation brings righteousness, but righteousness does not bring us salvation, i.e., we can't improve ourselves in order to get saved, for example, "I quitting sinning, therefore I spoke in tongues." Our righteousness is as filthy rags.
There is a missing factor there, though. Righteousness brings salvation if it is God's righteousness being imputed to us. I mean, right standing with God (righteousness) saves us! It's just that self cannot produce that kind of righteousness, for as you stated, self righteousness is as filthy rags.
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
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