Why I break the law

[Rico]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

We can't both know it all. Rico is right when he agrees with me the rest of the time he doesn't know nothin'. C'mon Rico get out of bed AFF is calling.

Rico literally tossed and turned in bed last night and got zero sleep. I don't know what happened. Finally, at 7:30 this morning, when the alarm went off, I cleared out all my hours for today, laid back down, and actually got to sleep. Me no likey when that happens.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by Pro31:28

It's almost like one of them does this for a living!

Sister, I do this while making a living. I started working from home a few months ago and have been doing a whole lot more posting than I had been doing, which was already a whole lot.

[Neubill]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

Look the Jews have rejected Christ from the beginning, there is nothing that I am going to say to change their mind. I don't see the need for a Messiah to come and follow the Law of Moses. He made the law obsolete, that is what the writer of Hebrews tells us. A new Priest and a new law.

I have a New Covenant and have no desire to make Christ's death in vain by trying to follow a system He made obsolete with His death. If you want to follow Judaism go ahead, I would rather follow Christ.

Who is the Gospel for, Baron? The Jew first. Or is that not in your version of the Bible?

As far as the Jews rejecting Him from the beginning, get some understanding about the choice that was made by the people between Jesus and Barabbas. Not all of the Jews were even present to pick Barabbas over Jesus, as it would be impossible for all to be present in such a small courtyard, so don't imply that the Jews rejected Him from the beginning. The actions of a small number does not a blanket judgment make. Besides, count the number of Jews who came to believe in the book of Acts. Many.

As far as you changing their mind, you won't change their mind as long as you continue in this drivel which proclaims that G-d's everlasting covenant isn't everlasting anymore and that G-d gave His bride Israel a law that would only be a curse. The Law contains curses, but also blessings. Give Deuteronomy a read and see. The curses come when willful transgression of the Law takes place. The blessings come when willful obedience of the Law is enacted out as a sign of submission to G-d.

You don't see the need for Messiah to come and follow the Law of Moses, yet that's exactly the criteria the Torah establishes for who the Messiah is. A Messiah who does not follow Torah is no Messiah at all. You don't see it because you're either not aware of it or because you're deceived by anti-Jewish theological bias. You're supposed to provoke Jews to jealousy, not confirm what Yeshua's opponents say about Him being a person who is anything but the Jewish Messiah.

King David said the Law is 'Perfect.' Paul said the Law is holy, just, and good. Obsolete doesn't fit, especially when the Word of G-d is the same yesterday, today, and forever. BTW, if you have a Bible that has italics in the print (i.e. KJV), you'll find that the word 'covenant' in Hebrews 8 is in italics. The covenant isn't obsolete: it's the priesthood. Read the chapter in context; the first priesthood was flawed, not the first covenant. To say that the first covenant was flawed is to say that G-d gave His people something that was less than perfect, and the G-d I serve does everything to perfection.

I don't doubt for a moment that you have a new covenant. Read Jeremiah 31 and you'll discover that the New Covenant is the Torah written on your heart. You want to be a breaker of The Law? Have it your way, but in the Messianic Age, you'll be observing the Festival of Tabernacles, and woe unto you if you don't, big dude.
...and you would only make Christ's death to be in vain if you chose salvation through Torah instead of through Him. Paul remained zealous for the Law, all while maintaining his salvation as coming from Jesus.

You mention Galatians. Galatians was about legalism, not Torah. Bro-Larry hates legalism, and rightfully so. I hate it, too. Torah is not legalism.
Torah is what G-d gave to Israel.
Legalism is what man gave to Israel.
Torah is G-d's instruction (that's what Torah means, it doesn't mean Law).
Legalism is man's interpretation of G-d's instruction.
Torah is G-d's revelation of His Righteousness.
Legalism is man's perversion of G-d's Revelation.

The Pharisees turned Torah into legalism.
Jesus took legalism out from Torah.
That's why people who do things the way Jesus did are doing Torah.

Finally, I don't do Judaism, I do 'Jesus'ism. He's the living Torah, and we're His Disciples. Disciples imitate their Master, and since He's the Master, if He did it, we should do it. If He didn't do it, we shouldn't do it.

Shabbat shalom!

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by Neubill

Who is the Gospel for, Baron? The Jew first. Or is that not in your version of the Bible?

As far as the Jews rejecting Him from the beginning, get some understanding about the choice that was made by the people between Jesus and Barabbas. Not all of the Jews were even present to pick Barabbas over Jesus, as it would be impossible for all to be present in such a small courtyard, so don't imply that the Jews rejected Him from the beginning. The actions of a small number does not a blanket judgment make. Besides, count the number of Jews who came to believe in the book of Acts. Many.

As far as you changing their mind, you won't change their mind as long as you continue in this drivel which proclaims that G-d's everlasting covenant isn't everlasting anymore and that G-d gave His bride Israel a law that would only be a curse. The Law contains curses, but also blessings. Give Deuteronomy a read and see. The curses come when willful transgression of the Law takes place. The blessings come when willful obedience of the Law is enacted out as a sign of submission to G-d.

You don't see the need for Messiah to come and follow the Law of Moses, yet that's exactly the criteria the Torah establishes for who the Messiah is. A Messiah who does not follow Torah is no Messiah at all. You don't see it because you're either not aware of it or because you're deceived by anti-Jewish theological bias. You're supposed to provoke Jews to jealousy, not confirm what Yeshua's opponents say about Him being a person who is anything but the Jewish Messiah.

King David said the Law is 'Perfect.' Paul said the Law is holy, just, and good. Obsolete doesn't fit, especially when the Word of G-d is the same yesterday, today, and forever. BTW, if you have a Bible that has italics in the print (i.e. KJV), you'll find that the word 'covenant' in Hebrews 8 is in italics. The covenant isn't obsolete: it's the priesthood. Read the chapter in context; the first priesthood was flawed, not the first covenant. To say that the first covenant was flawed is to say that G-d gave His people something that was less than perfect, and the G-d I serve does everything to perfection.

I don't doubt for a moment that you have a new covenant. Read Jeremiah 31 and you'll discover that the New Covenant is the Torah written on your heart. You want to be a breaker of The Law? Have it your way, but in the Messianic Age, you'll be observing the Festival of Tabernacles, and woe unto you if you don't, big dude.
...and you would only make Christ's death to be in vain if you chose salvation through Torah instead of through Him. Paul remained zealous for the Law, all while maintaining his salvation as coming from Jesus.

You mention Galatians. Galatians was about legalism, not Torah. Bro-Larry hates legalism, and rightfully so. I hate it, too. Torah is not legalism.
Torah is what G-d gave to Israel.
Legalism is what man gave to Israel.
Torah is G-d's instruction (that's what Torah means, it doesn't mean Law).
Legalism is man's interpretation of G-d's instruction.
Torah is G-d's revelation of His Righteousness.
Legalism is man's perversion of G-d's Revelation.

The Pharisees turned Torah into legalism.
Jesus took legalism out from Torah.
That's why people who do things the way Jesus did are doing Torah.

Finally, I don't do Judaism, I do 'Jesus'ism. He's the living Torah, and we're His Disciples. Disciples imitate their Master, and since He's the Master, if He did it, we should do it. If He didn't do it, we shouldn't do it.

Shabbat shalom!

Very well written Neubill!

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by Rico

Weren't there provisions in the law for exemptions to working on the Sabbath, and example of which was an ox in a ditch?

When God made regulations for the Sabbath you shouldn't add to what he said. God tells US what to do on Sabbath. So to do what Jessu said on Sabbath by the man who took up his bed could not violate a law. WHen the law is based God telling what to and not to do. Also Jesus point of getting the ox out was simple. There is no regulation for doing GOOD on the Sabbath. To do what is right is right all the time! To labor or carry a burden was simply the point of STOP going about your daily business and think on him and be still for the most part on Sabbath. Don't do your own work for your benefit on Sabbath. Getting a Ox out of the ditch or some major issue is to do good. Nothing wrong with that.

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by Neubill

[FONT="Trebuchet MS"]

You don't see the need for Messiah to come and follow the Law of Moses, yet that's exactly the criteria the Torah establishes for who the Messiah is. A Messiah who does not follow Torah is no Messiah at all. You don't see it because you're either not aware of it or because you're deceived by anti-Jewish theological bias. You're supposed to provoke Jews to jealousy, not confirm what Yeshua's opponents say about Him being a person who is anything but the Jewish Messiah.

Any Scripture for this or just another point on which the Jews have misread prophesies about the Messiah?

Originally Posted by Neubill

Obsolete doesn't fit, especially when the Word of G-d is the same yesterday, today, and forever. BTW, if you have a Bible that has italics in the print (i.e. KJV), you'll find that the word 'covenant' in Hebrews 8 is in italics. The covenant isn't obsolete: it's the priesthood. Read the chapter in context; the first priesthood was flawed, not the first covenant. To say that the first covenant was flawed is to say that G-d gave His people something that was less than perfect, and the G-d I serve does everything to perfection.

Covenant is in italics in verse 7 not in verse 6 and is the immediately preceding topic in the previous sentence I am not aware of any translation that interprets verse 7 as referring to the priesthood, it doesn't make sense grammatically or contextually.

Hebrews 8:6-7, 13
6 But now Jesus, our High Priest, has been given a ministry that is far superior to the old priesthood, for he is the one who mediates for us a far better covenant with God, based on better promises.
7 If the first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no need for a second covenant to replace it.
13When God speaks of a “new” covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear.

Originally Posted by Neubill

Have it your way, but in the Messianic Age, you'll be observing the Festival of Tabernacles, and woe unto you if you don't, big dude.

I guess that depends on your view of prophecy I don't see the church returning to the law. Those same passages used to show a return to the law include meaningless sacrifice, since Christ died once for all.

Originally Posted by Neubill

You mention Galatians. Galatians was about legalism, not Torah.

Galatians is about a church returning to the law not about legalism in the law.
Galatians 3:19-20, 23-25
What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one.

Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ[h] that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

Galatians 4:8-11
Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. But now that you know God—or rather are known by God—how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you.

What were these days they were observing? They weren't legalism of the law they were the law.

[Neubill]

Sorry for not getting back to you sooner, Baron. My pharmacy has kept me busy, or as Oneness Man would say, I was practicing sorcery.

Originally Posted by Baron1710

Any Scripture for this or just another point on which the Jews have misread prophesies about the Messiah?

Deut. 13:1-5 YLT (usage of the Tetragrammaton is mine)
1-3 “When there ariseth in your midst a prophet, or a dreamer of a dream, and he hath given unto thee a sign or wonder, and the sign and the wonder hath come which he hath spoken of unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods (which thou hast not known), and serve them, thou dost not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or unto that dreamer of the dream, for YHVH your God is trying you, to know whether ye are loving YHVH your God with all your heart, and with all your soul;
4 after YHVH your God ye walk, and Him ye fear, and His commands ye keep, and to His voice ye hearken, and Him ye serve, and to Him ye cleave.
5`And that prophet, or that dreamer of the dream, is put to death, for he hath spoken apostacy against YHVH your God (who is bringing you out of the land of Egypt, and hath ransomed you out of a house of servants), to drive you out of the way in which YHVH thy God hath commanded thee to walk, and thou hast put away the evil thing from thy midst.”

YHVH commands His people to serve Him and obey Torah. Other gods do not. A Messiah who leads Israel away from the way of YHVH and His Torah is no Messiah at all.

…and your smug attitude towards Jews and our understanding of Scripture isn’t going to provoke many of my brothers to jealousy. Besides, you’re really in a poor position to talk about Scripture being misread, because Christians like you have misread the words and actions of Jesus for nearly 2000 years, accusing Him of doing the exact same things that His opponents accused Him of, namely, violating Torah. No willful violator of YHVH’s Torah can be, by definition, the Messiah of Israel. Jesus kept Torah and kept it perfectly. And He didn’t keep it so that we wouldn’t have to: He kept it to show us how it should be kept.

Shalom shalom, Baron.

[Neubill]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

Covenant is in italics in verse 7 not in verse 6 and is the immediately preceding topic in the previous sentence I am not aware of any translation that interprets verse 7 as referring to the priesthood, it doesn't make sense grammatically or contextually.

It does if you look at verse 8. “For finding fault with them,…” as it’s written in your KJV. Them (the priesthood), not it (the covenant).
Why did you skip verses 8-12? Probably because it clashes with your anti-Torah theology. Verses 8-12 go on to quote Jeremiah 31, which is the New Covenant: The Torah of YHVH being written on the heart of His People.
You claim to be one of YHVH’s people, yet you want to be known as one who breaks Torah. You might want to rethink that one.

Shalom shalom, Baron.

[Neubill]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

I guess that depends on your view of prophecy I don't see the church returning to the law. Those same passages used to show a return to the law include meaningless sacrifice, since Christ died once for all.

So the church is going to be standing on the sidelines while all of this is happening? Then I guess 'everyone' doesn't mean everyone, to use your phrase.

Zech 14:16 YTL
“And it hath come to pass, Every one who hath been left of all the nations, Who are coming in against Jerusalem, They have also gone up from year to year, To bow themselves to the King, YHVH of Hosts, And to celebrate the feast of the booths.”

The church will keep the Festival of Tabernacles. You’ll get a chance to practice this coming October.

Until then, Shalom shalom.

[Neubill]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

Galatians is about a church returning to the law not about legalism in the law.
Galatians 3:19-20, 23-25
What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one.

Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ[h] that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

And yet you conveniently ignore 3:21 of Galatians, which proclaims that the Torah of YHVH is not against the promises of YHVH. True, the Torah serves as the one who was put in charge to lead us to Christ. Now that we’ve been led to Him, we’re to follow Him and live as He did.

How did He live? He kept Torah, not the way the people who sat in the seat of Moses (the Pharisees) kept it, but in Spirit and in Truth. Torah wasn’t the problem. It was the Pharisees who pressured the Galatians to formally convert to Judaism and keep Torah their way to ensure a complete salvation.

Originally Posted by Baron1710

Galatians 4:8-11
Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. But now that you know God—or rather are known by God—how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you.

What were these days they were observing? They weren't legalism of the law they were the law.

I agree that the days were the Feasts of YHVH. I’ll let Dr. David Stern explain why Galatians is about legalism and not Law:

But when Gentiles observe these Jewish holidays neither out of joy in sharing what God has given the Jewish people nor out of spiritual identification with them, but out of fear induced by Judaizers who have convinced them that unless they do these things, God will not accept them, then they are not obeying the Torah but subjugating themselves to legalism; and legalism is just another species of those weak and miserable elemental demonic spirits, no better than the idols left behind.
Gentile Christians who choose to add a cultural identification with Jews to the spiritual identification they have already made by trusting in the Jewish Messiah, or who enjoy the beauty and significance of Jewish rituals, are, according to Romans 14 and 1 Corinthians 8, free to observe them.

Shalom shalom, Baron.