The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Adino

You missed the point. Cornelius received the Spirit only after he obeyed. Only those who obey God are given the Spirit. Cornelius could not OBEY the Gospel until he had heard it. Cornelius had not heard the Gospel until Paul told him in Acts 10:40-43.

Between the time he heard the Gospel and received the Spirit, Cornelius did nothing but believe. Since God gives the Spirit ONLY to those who obey, it must be concluded that a heart of faith itself was sufficient obedience.

If it was sufficient obedience for God to give the Spirit as witness to Cornelius' faith in the Gospel...... why not for Pressing?

Because it didn't happen the same way for the men that Paul ran across in Ephesus. That shows me that either way - you must obey what Peter preached. That is exactly what Cornelius did. It didn't matter that he received the Holy Ghost after repentance, he still obeyed and was baptized.

As I stated, using Cornelius alone isn't going to work. It didn't happen that way for the men in Ephesus. They did believe what Paul preached - they believed - but they did not receive the Holy Ghost until after they were baptized. Was the "answer of a good conscience" after baptism what they needed to believe they could be filled? Maybe so. Maybe Cornelius only needed repentance and an understanding to believe and have faith enough to be filled. Apparently he did. I do know that God knows the heart of every man and I leave that in God's hands. Either way, the Gospel is preached.

When the death, burial and resurrection is preached, willing hearts will respond and be filled. It doesn't make any difference to me when they are filled. I want to make sure they know what Peter preached - repent, be baptized and you will be filled. The promise is unto you and to your children and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

[Neck]

Anyone getting more saved or lost from this thread? Just wondering...

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by Neck

Anyone getting more saved or lost from this thread? Just wondering...

Well, The Illegalist told me I'm not going to heaven, so maybe so!

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by Adino

You missed the point. Cornelius received the Spirit only after he obeyed. Only those who obey God are given the Spirit. Cornelius could not OBEY the Gospel until he had heard it. Cornelius had not heard the Gospel until Paul told him in Acts 10:40-43.

Between the time he heard the Gospel and received the Spirit, Cornelius did nothing but believe. Since God gives the Spirit ONLY to those who obey, it must be concluded that a heart of faith itself was sufficient obedience.

If it was sufficient obedience for God to give the Spirit as witness to Cornelius' faith in the Gospel...... why not for Pressing?

God had already seen his life as a God-Fearer and he had a good report among the Jews. Thus God knew by his actions his heart. Peter preaching was simple SHOW UP start preaching the gospel and witness the acceptance of the Gentiles. Peter then brings them into covenant with Christ by baptism.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

God had already seen his life as a God-Fearer and he had a good report among the Jews. Thus God knew by his actions his heart. Peter preaching was simple SHOW UP start preaching the gospel and witness the acceptance of the Gentiles. Peter then brings them into covenant with Christ by baptism.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Nor could they (or we!) "see God's" action when He counts us "righteous." There's nothing really to see any how (at least in this world).

Abraham was "accounted righteous" by God long before he ever acted upon his willingness to sacrifice his son.

The only verb that describes Abraham's actions in Genesis 15:6 is "believed." God's immediate response to that "action" is to count Abraham "righteous."

We are told to emulate this act of believing and to expect the exact same response from God (Galatians 3:6-14).

Whatever else that may happen in our lives will also require faith; however to be "justified" - that is, to have our sins forgiven and to be declared "righteous" in God's own eyes requires only faith in the provision that Jesus Christ has made for those sins at Calvary.

I take it for what it says, and I think that certainly includes what you've mentioned, but the connection between Genesis 15:6; Romans 4 and Galatians 3:6-14; can't be left out.

God accounts us righteous because of our belief in the saving power of the cross.

Yes, those Scriptures tell us what Jesus freely and willingly did for us. However, the word "free" also comes before us in Romans 5:15-19.

You keep going back to the requirement for the Christian believer to be obedient to God's commands, and you'll get no argument from me about that. However, this thread is about how "The Cross and the Cross Alone Can Save..."

What obedience is required for salvation? For our salvation?

Romans 5:19 - "... by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

Whose obedience is in mind here? Yours? Mine? No!

We are all made righteous by the obedience of a single individual. It was His obedience and His obedience alone that saves us. We are saved by "the obedience of one!"

Romans 11:5-6 clearly demands us to accept that this free gift comes without any "works" on our part.

Paul seems to be telling us, "it's one or the other" in Romans 11:5-6. It's either "grace" or it's "works." For whatever reason, he seems to come down rather heavily on the "grace" side of things.


Have a great day tomorrow, or "today" if that's when you see this. But then again, still have a great tomorrow whenever that gets here.

Pel,
I didn't forget about your last post to me. I just got a bit sidetracked. I guess I pretty well have exhausted my points and can't really add anything else to what I've already said.

Anyway, I wanted to thank you for the conversation! You were great in your presentation and approach. If I was going to converse with anyone where we had points of some disagreement, I would choose you!

God Bless!

[TheLegalist]

••Actually, Ephesians 1:13 negates everything you've said. It very simply says, "And when you believed in Christ, he identified you as his own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom he promised long ago".

LOL! As usual you ignore the witness that receiving the HS is not by blind faith that you have. Congrats on your continued insistance in error. I have no problem with the verse as I can see it for what it is. You on the other hand really can't answer the questions presented and chuck doesn't either.

So do you believe that verse? Let's ask this...does every person who believes receive the Holy Spirit? That is what it says, so do you believe that? Would you take it to believe that if you believe, you will...as in a futuristic statement....receive the Holy Spirit?

Does a person receive the HS before baptism? I imagine you would say yes and I as well say yes you can. Yet THEY KNEW THEY DIDN'T BY SIMPLY BELIEVING!

••When I believed in my heart and confessed with my mouth that Jesus is Lord and that God has raised Him from the dead. Simple.

and the continuance of blind faith teaching when Acts clearly shows different.

••It has everything to do with it. It's a very simple statement that cannot be added to. Well, it can be added to, which you are doing, but it's not right.

yeaaaahhh.... the problem is like all your other friends is you make "faith" one thing and not about the whole. Typcal...

People had already believed and had not received... Paul asked HAVE YOU SINCE which means it is not automatic reception without knowing THUS NOT BLIND FAITH.

••I'm gonna post something Chuck Smith said about this verse. I'm sure you'll disagree, but I'll put it in a separate post.

yawn...

••But it doesn't say, "If you believe you CAN receive". It says "Which will be given to everyone who believes."

YES believes is a continous understanding it not about "once believed received." LOL!

••What would you like to know...what Simon the sorcerer saw? There are a myriad of things he could have seen. Chuck Smith mentions the number of ways the Holy Spirit manifests itself. If you put Simon's testimony into a box where it can only mean "Tongues", you are doing the Holy Spirit a GREAT disservice. The Holy Spirit is SO much more and I hate to see you, or others limit it to that.

hmm the continous witness is clear and the witness is that he "speaks" as a witness. That is how God is. The unruly member bears witness of the Spirit.

Originally Posted by notofworks

If one works hard enough at it, one can make any verse mean anything. And you've worked very hard.

yes and the believe only crowd has to ignore the points made.

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Here are the Chuck Smith notes which, I'm sure, you'll disagree with. But here they are nonetheless.





WHY WOULD PAUL ASK THIS QUESTION?
A. He no doubt saw that their experience in Christ was lacking something.
1. Maybe there was an absence of love.
a. One of the real marks of the truly Spirit filled life is love. The fruit of the Spirit is love.
b. This love is described as bringing joy and peace, and causing us to be longsuffering. It manifests itself in gentleness, goodness, meekness faithfulness and self control.
2. Maybe they lacked real zeal and enthusiasm for the things of the Spirit.
3. It could be that they lacked a real dynamic in their walk with Jesus, and their witness for Him.
4. Whatever it was that Paul noticed, he suspicioned their deficiency was due to the absence of the Holy Spirit.
B. It is one thing to be filled with the Holy Spirit, and quite another to be overflowing with the Spirit.
1. When on the feast day, recorded by John in chapter 7, Jesus stood and cried to the assembled multitude, "If any man thirst let him come unto Me and drink, and he that drinks of the water that I give, as the scripture says, out of his innermost being there will flow rivers of living water." John tells us that Jesus was speaking of the Spirit which was not yet given.
a. What did He say of the Spirit? He would be like a torrent of living water flowing out from your life.
b. The question really is not do you have the Holy Spirit dwelling in you, but do you have the Holy Spirit flowing out from your life like a torrent of living water?
2. You can pour water in a glass until the glass is full, but if you keep pouring, the glass will begin to overflow. There is a difference between full and overflowing.
C. Many have complained of the difficulty of living the Christian life, and have given up because they found that it was too difficult. It is not only difficult, it is impossible.
1. It is very frustrating to see the ideal and to admire the ideal, to admit to the ideal, and then be unable to live up to the standards of the ideal.
2. Paul spoke of that frustration in his own life in Romans 7. "I do the things I don't want to do, and I don't do the things I desire to do. I hate the things I do. I consent to the law that it is good, but I cannot perform that which is good. When I would do good, evil is present with me. My inward man delights in the law of God, but their is another law in my flesh that wars against my mind, and brings me into bondage to my flesh. Oh wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me from the body of death?"
3. Paul then found his answer in chapter 8 as he speaks of the life in the Spirit. "The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has freed me from the law of sin and death, for what the law could not do because of the weakness of my flesh, God has done for me by sending His Son in the flesh, that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in me as I walk after the Spirit. So then they who are in the flesh cannot please God, but we are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit if the Spirit of God is dwelling in us."
4. He shows me the ideal, and then gives me the power to live the ideal.
III. HAVE YOU RECEIVED THE HOLY SPIRIT? IS THERE SOMETHING MISSING IN YOUR WALK WITH THE LORD? ARE YOU LIVING A DYNAMIC CHRISTIAN LIFE?
A. On a scale of one to ten, where would you rate your fervency for Christ?
B. If Paul would meet you and visit for a while, would he be apt to ask you if you received the Holy Spirit when you believed?
C. Is the Spirit flowing forth from your life like a torrent of living water?
D. Would you like a new dynamic to live the Christian life?
E. Ask the Father for the gift of the Holy Spirit, that your life might overflow with His love and power. Jesus said that if you earthly fathers know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those that ask Him.

sheeesh talk about side stepping the issue that is still in front of your face. HEY CHUCK... you don't ask a question that would be redundant to ask if it was simply thought that one believed they had received the HS by blind faith. THE ISSUE STILL REMAINS! ONE WOULD EXPECT that question to be asked if there was a expectation of the manifested presence of the Spirit as witness. Especially since you have another witness that shows PEOPLE KNEW that they had not "received" the HS and simply believing and being baptized was not the expectation "to know" in Acts 8.

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Well, The Illegalist told me I'm not going to heaven, so maybe so!

well based upon the end result I must say no.... That is what we call a logical conclusion. You knew the answer. Am I your judge? No! If I was I don't think I could do that to anyone. I leave it up to God. I teach what I believe is right and let him sort it out with righteous judgment.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

LOL! As usual you ignore the witness that receiving the HS is not by blind faith that you have. Congrats on your continued insistance in error. I have no problem with the verse as I can see it for what it is. You on the other hand really can't answer the questions presented and chuck doesn't either.



Does a person receive the HS before baptism? I imagine you would say yes and I as well say yes you can. Yet THEY KNEW THEY DIDN'T BY SIMPLY BELIEVING!




and the continuance of blind faith teaching when Acts clearly shows different.




yeaaaahhh.... the problem is like all your other friends is you make "faith" one thing and not about the whole. Typcal...

People had already believed and had not received... Paul asked HAVE YOU SINCE which means it is not automatic reception without knowing THUS NOT BLIND FAITH.



yawn...



YES believes is a continous understanding it not about "once believed received." LOL!



hmm the continous witness is clear and the witness is that he "speaks" as a witness. That is how God is. The unruly member bears witness of the Spirit.



yes and the believe only crowd has to ignore the points made.

So you believe Simon the sorcerer "saw" tongues? How does one do that? Are you speaking of the cloven tongues of fire resting on one's head or tongues that he was speaking? Whichever, I've never "seen" tongues. I've heard them (Alleged tongues, anyway). Earlier in Acts 8 it was noted the great joy that was present. Simon certainly could have seen that.

You yawned. Sorry for boring you.

You "Tongues-only" folks insist that Acts 2 is the benchmark for all history in establishing precedent for salvation. I have never seen tongues in my lifetime, allegedly or otherwise, nor anything else that happened in the upper room account. I've never seen any sound, come to think of it.

I've never seen fire on top of anyone's head, a rushing mighty wind, and I haven't seen people speak in a language that was intelligible to someone who speaks another language. Yet you "Tongues-only" people insist that we must do things just like Acts 2.

So I'll make a deal with you...when you see those things take place, I'll give tongues a shot. Until then, I'll fulfill every command the bible gives me for salvation and in the process, be empowered everyday of my life by the power of the Holy Spirit that resides in me!