Prominent Memphis Area Pastor Resigns

[canam]

Tv1a: the Gossip Sherriff of AFF!

:santathumb

[tv1a]

If you want to know, ask him.

While is is certainly not something to be obsessed with there is nothing "wrong" with wondering where TB is at and what he is doing, etc.

[Steve Epley]

Steve Epley


Not that is known ...... but I heard soon .....

Been praying for them.

[revdtzombik]

It has been a real heart breaking situation that will take the hand of God to repair and replenish , but in time the healing power of the Almighty will heal.

Rev. Brown is still there as interm pastor and things are coming together.

We do not attend there but are in the same area at another UPCI helping in ministry.

blessings.
The Rev

[Jermyn Davidson]

My, my, my! 5:24 just grips my heart!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dck3onPX3Sc

[canam]

:santathumb nice

[Peacemaker]

Paul was brash and offensive. The last couple chapters of 2Corinthians shows Paul was ready for battle. Paul accused the Galatians of falling under the spell if witchcraft.

The only people offended with Paul were the religious people. Jesus offended the religious people. Telling the pharisees their father was the devil doesn't win too many friends or influence.

That is the most ridiculous misrepresentation of Paul. He rebuked the Corinthian and Galatian churches because of doctrinal error. But he was THEIR apostle responsible for bringing them into the Gospel.

I am amazed that you simply ignore "must not strive, but be gentle, apt to teach, and patient." Based on your premise, Paul must have lied.

The vast majority of Paul's writings are gentle and instructive.

EVERYTHING he wrote was to religious people.

When Paul talked harshly to the high priest, he apologized upon realizing what he had done.

[Peacemaker]

I'm going to stop now TV1A. I do appreciate your statements about leaving the preacher alone. I'm not your enemy. :-)

[tv1a]

I didnt ignore the gentle, patient style Paul encouraged. Paul actions shows there are times when you have to be abrupt. We agree Paul was harsh againt religious foolishness. So were Jesus, John the Baptist, and James. With numerous Biblical examples the kind gentle approach wasn't appropriate. Since Paul used different styles for different situations, one must conclude Paul was suggesting an ideal approach.

That is the most ridiculous misrepresentation of Paul. He rebuked the Corinthian and Galatian churches because of doctrinal error. But he was THEIR apostle responsible for bringing them into the Gospel.

I am amazed that you simply ignore "must not strive, but be gentle, apt to teach, and patient." Based on your premise, Paul must have lied.

The vast majority of Paul's writings are gentle and instructive.

EVERYTHING he wrote was to religious people.

When Paul talked harshly to the high priest, he apologized upon realizing what he had done.

[tv1a]

Never thought of you as the enemy.

I'm going to stop now TV1A. I do appreciate your statements about leaving the preacher alone. I'm not your enemy. :-)

[RandyWayne]

Never thought of you as the enemy.

Perhaps a "frenemy"?

[tv1a]

An equal opportunity offender...


Perhaps a "frenemy"?

[CC1]

My, my, my! 5:24 just grips my heart!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dck3onPX3Sc

Hope you are ok. If the tightness in your chest continues you might try taking an aspirin.

I watched that segment and it was touching seeing those young boys praying. If you keep watching at about 6:18 it is clear that praying is not going to keep the boy in the red shirt from chewing his gum ninety to nothing!

[Old Paths]

Hope you are ok. If the tightness in your chest continues you might try taking an aspirin.

I watched that segment and it was touching seeing those young boys praying. If you keep watching at about 6:18 it is clear that praying is not going to keep the boy in the red shirt from chewing his gum ninety to nothing!


I notice that also....




Hee heeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[RandyWayne]

Finally watched the video.

Is is amazing how sophisticated the apostolic mating game has become. :)

I guess the mightier the poof the higher the fertility and more likely the success of the future pastors church (and likelihood for a spot for his Lincoln Town car).

[Monterrey]

Bwahaha ... Randy, you kill me!

[Godzchild]

Ok, allow me please to say something about the "sleeves above the elbow" issue....as a former member of TPC under Pastor Black for 8 years, he did not HAMMER the sleeve, hair UP on the platform, or TV issues! NO WHERE is it written about sleeve length or hair up while on platform or TV! Bro Black did however preach against what you ALLOW in your home and that is what a remote is for! He was THE BEST pastor ever. Growing up 5th generation Apostolic, I have a late Uncle who passed and was UPC and hammered his "man made" rules from the pulpit and that was why his church was a small one. If it is NOT in GODS WORD....leave it alone!

[Godzchild]

SHORT SLEEVES....???? Are you kidding me????? AS A MEMEBER OF THIS CHURCH FOR 8 YEARS.....HE DID NOT HAMMER THE SLEEVES ISSUES BECAUSE NO WHERE IN THE BIBLE IS IT WRITTEN SLEEVE LENGTH GETS YOU A FIRST CLASS TICKET TO HELL.......OR MAKES US A WEAKER CHURCH....OR MAKES THE PREACHER FALL FROM GRACE!!!!! PLEASE PEOPLE...STOP WITH THE SLEEVE THING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BRO BLACK IS NOT AND WAS NOT A RADICAL....LIKE MOST UPC PREACHERS!!!!!

[tv1a]

Let it die Godzchild.

[Steve Epley]

SHORT SLEEVES....???? Are you kidding me????? AS A MEMEBER OF THIS CHURCH FOR 8 YEARS.....HE DID NOT HAMMER THE SLEEVES ISSUES BECAUSE NO WHERE IN THE BIBLE IS IT WRITTEN SLEEVE LENGTH GETS YOU A FIRST CLASS TICKET TO HELL.......OR MAKES US A WEAKER CHURCH....OR MAKES THE PREACHER FALL FROM GRACE!!!!! PLEASE PEOPLE...STOP WITH THE SLEEVE THING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! BRO BLACK IS NOT AND WAS A RADICAL....LIKE MOST UPC PREACHERS!!!!!

See I told y'all he was not a conservative. Thanks.

[Godzchild]

oh its dead....just like all these jacks who are posting these asinine posts!!!! So you have spoken yours....leave mine alone! RADICALS are what makes it pathetic and make people turn to other "pentecostal" religion....where they are not hammered! TERRY BLACK is still a good man and that is just like I said....a MAN...who is not any exception to the rule of failure!

[Godzchild]

oh please!! WHATEVER!!!!!!

[CC1]

oh its dead....just like all these jacks who are posting these asinine posts!!!! So you have spoken yours....leave mine alone! RADICALS are what makes it pathetic and make people turn to other "pentecostal" religion....where they are not hammered! TERRY BLACK is still a good man and that is just like I said....a MAN...who is not any exception to the rule of failure!

Can you elaborate on the "rule of failure"? Are you saying that because we have a fallen nature it is inevitable that all of us will live double lives for an extended period of time? Preaching behind a pulpit while in repeated sexual sin? Hmmm.....

You have a very broad definition of a "good man. He may have been a good man for many years but it is incorrect to say that while he was living this double life he was a "good man". At best a good man gone bad. Which all of us are capable us.

[tv1a]

First of all I am the only one that can use the word asinine. Second. I have been the strongest critic of the nature of this thread. I ticked off a lot of people Until you made some noise, this thread had very little traffic the past couple weeks. That's was ignorant. This thread was dying. I admire your loyalty but question your intelligence. Let the thread die Godz.



oh its dead....just like all these jacks who are posting these asinine posts!!!! So you have spoken yours....leave mine alone! RADICALS are what makes it pathetic and make people turn to other "pentecostal" religion....where they are not hammered! TERRY BLACK is still a good man and that is just like I said....a MAN...who is not any exception to the rule of failure!

[Godzchild]

u r so right on that and yes I knew him as a good man.....but not as what he did and if he was preaching it from the pulpit and living the opposite....bad news. Just still in shock! So please understand I am not condoning his actions at all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! To think, sitting under his direction , preaching against porn, the internet....etc....and then...well, its all said for itself!

[Cindy]

u r so right on that and yes I knew him as a good man.....but not as what he did and if he was preaching it from the pulpit and living the opposite....bad news. Just still in shock! So please understand I am not condoning his actions at all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! To think, sitting under his direction , preaching against porn, the internet....etc....and then...well, its all said for itself!

This is what makes it so sad. You are in my prayers.

[Godzchild]

ok...allow me to say its still asinine:gotcha but I JUST found out about all of this just 2 days ago. I am not trying to rock the boat or stir the pot.....I am still in shock that I sat under his direction for years and for his teachings/preachings.....to be "caught in the same"...... so yeah, today it dies! Have a blessed day

[tv1a]

I know how you feel. I won't go into details. Thoughts and prayers.

ok...allow me to say its still asinine:gotcha but I JUST found out about all of this just 2 days ago. I am not trying to rock the boat or stir the pot.....I am still in shock that I sat under his direction for years and for his teachings/preachings.....to be "caught in the same"...... so yeah, today it dies! Have a blessed day

[Steve Epley]

ok...allow me to say its still asinine:gotcha but I JUST found out about all of this just 2 days ago. I am not trying to rock the boat or stir the pot.....I am still in shock that I sat under his direction for years and for his teachings/preachings.....to be "caught in the same"...... so yeah, today it dies! Have a blessed day

I will add you personally to my prayer list. I have been praying for the church.

[tv1a]

Have to give props to you. I think your presence and response or lack of response was a major reason why people begin to lose interest in this thread.

I will add you personally to my prayer list. I have been praying for the church.

[Steve Epley]

Can you elaborate on the "rule of failure"? Are you saying that because we have a fallen nature it is inevitable that all of us will live double lives for an extended period of time? Preaching behind a pulpit while in repeated sexual sin? Hmmm.....

You have a very broad definition of a "good man. He may have been a good man for many years but it is incorrect to say that while he was living this double life he was a "good man". At best a good man gone bad. Which all of us are capable us.

There is no excuse for immorality.

[tv1a]

Finally an Eplyism I can agree with.

There is no excuse for immorality.

[Steve Epley]

Finally an Eplyism I can agree with.

Immorality is always devastating to the home. But when the ministry lives immorally and keeps a religious face it is henious. It destroys the faith of many saints. A preacher should never be careless around women. A guard should always be in place. Because since we are all human we can all fail in this sin that is why Paul said "flee fornication."

[PrincessofGod]

I am familiar with the church. I even visited a few times over the years. From what I understand TB's whole family was employed at the church. TB was on the payroll, as well as his wife, two sons-in-law, daughter, and son. Nepotism anyone?

yes and he was paying himself 300000 a yr and each of them 100000 a yr... sad

[Praxeas]

This thread was fairly dead until someone that did not want it talked about decided to talk about it....

How ironic

[seekerman]

Wouldn't it be interesting if all the financial information of a building based 'church' religious system be openly available?

[PrincessofGod]

I to was a member at TPC for over 15 years and have known Bro Black as a Great man of God. I do to see that he is only human and we all fall short of the glory of God from time to time... But to stand up and preach on internet and controlling what is in your home and so on then to go and do what e is saying not to do... That will make a lot of people question everything he has taught... specially people who are new in christ. I dont understand the stealing money from the church... I dont have a problem with his family all working at the church but making 100,000 for each kid and paying himself 300,000 a yr is insane... No pastor should be making that much. And if they do they should be giving that money to Gods Church and helping people in need. He is just a man and i pray for him and his soul but i just dont understand how someone can live a two faced life

[hometown guy]

Immorality is always devastating to the home. But when the ministry lives immorally and keeps a religious face it is henious. It destroys the faith of many saints. A preacher should never be careless around women. A guard should always be in place. Because since we are all human we can all fail in this sin that is why Paul said "flee fornication."

Yes sir. And when a pastor fails I hope they will find a place of repentance and be able to serve God all the rest of their days on a pew.

[Steve Epley]

I am sad for all y'all who are hurt and pray for y'all.

[tv1a]

Are you suggesting I brought this up? If so Godzchild may disagree with your assessment. Still ironic?


This thread was fairly dead until someone that did not want it talked about decided to talk about it....

How ironic

[Praxeas]

This thread was fairly dead until someone that did not want it talked about decided to talk about it....

How ironic

Are you suggesting I brought this up? If so Godzchild may disagree with your assessment. Still ironic?
This poster seems to believe I mentioned his name.....

How Bizarre

[PrincessofGod]

Im not here to bash him just saying you reap what you sow and that only God can judge im... but its sad he has led so many people while he was up there faking it.

[Praxeas]

And yet...it was virtually dead until someone that is complaining about the topic....dragged it back to the forefront again


How Ironic.....

[tv1a]

Truth is truth no matter source. Rock stars and movie stars are doing drunk driving public service announcements all the time because the judge ordered them to instead of throwing them in jail for drunk driving. Doesn't make the message less truthful.

My pastor is worth more than $300,000. It is arrogance to suggest a pastor's salary be capped as long as the finances are there.


I to was a member at TPC for over 15 years and have known Bro Black as a Great man of God. I do to see that he is only human and we all fall short of the glory of God from time to time... But to stand up and preach on internet and controlling what is in your home and so on then to go and do what e is saying not to do... That will make a lot of people question everything he has taught... specially people who are new in christ. I dont understand the stealing money from the church... I dont have a problem with his family all working at the church but making 100,000 for each kid and paying himself 300,000 a yr is insane... No pastor should be making that much. And if they do they should be giving that money to Gods Church and helping people in need. He is just a man and i pray for him and his soul but i just dont understand how someone can live a two faced life

[Steve Epley]

Truth is truth no matter source. Rock stars and movie stars are doing drunk driving public service announcements all the time because the judge ordered them to instead of throwing them in jail for drunk driving. Doesn't make the message less truthful.

My pastor is worth more than $300,000. It is arrogance to suggest a pastor's salary be capped as long as the finances are there.

One can only dream.:christmoose:santathumb:horn:bells

[navygoat1998]

One can only dream.:christmoose:santathumb:horn:bells

I have to be honest a good shepherd is priceless. A pastor that leads and follows as one that has to give an account to God for He has been entrusted with His sheep even the difficult ones.

The bad pastors are the ones who get the headlines but there are many more who truly care for and feed the sheep. Jesus asked Peter 3 times will you feed My sheep???? His sheep are important to Christ but then again we are all sheep even pastors.

[Fiyahstarter]

My pastor is worth more than $300,000. It is arrogance to suggest a pastor's salary be capped as long as the finances are there.

BULL.

[Old Paths]

BULL.

Careful.

That's some nasty stuff that you're walking in.....




Hee heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[seekerman]

Careful.

That's some nasty stuff that you're walking in.....




Hee heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

When you walk in places like that, you MUST walk circumspectly or you'll step in a pile of...............error.

[CC1]

ok...allow me to say its still asinine:gotcha but I JUST found out about all of this just 2 days ago. I am not trying to rock the boat or stir the pot.....I am still in shock that I sat under his direction for years and for his teachings/preachings.....to be "caught in the same"...... so yeah, today it dies! Have a blessed day

Godzchild, I can only imagine what you are going through. I think most everybody on this forum will be praying for you as we have been for the church and all those affected.

[Tlswift2009]

I to was a member at TPC for over 15 years and have known Bro Black as a Great man of God. I do to see that he is only human and we all fall short of the glory of God from time to time... But to stand up and preach on internet and controlling what is in your home and so on then to go and do what e is saying not to do... That will make a lot of people question everything he has taught... specially people who are new in christ. I dont understand the stealing money from the church... I dont have a problem with his family all working at the church but making 100,000 for each kid and paying himself 300,000 a yr is insane... No pastor should be making that much. And if they do they should be giving that money to Gods Church and helping people in need. He is just a man and i pray for him and his soul but i just dont understand how someone can live a two faced life
Can you believe that Pastor Hawkins of Bountiful Blessing {former G.E. Patterson's Church} makes a base salaray of $58,000.00 a month??? There is so many/much GREED in the Pentecostal Churchworld..

[Fiyahstarter]

Can you believe that Pastor Hawkins of Bountiful Blessing {former G.E. Patterson's Church} makes a base salaray of $58,000.00 a month??? There is so many/much GREED in the Pentecostal Churchworld..

SINFUL, in my opinion.

But according to TV1a: A pastor's salary should not be capped, as long as the money is there to take...and to think otherwise is arrogance. (paraphrased). :crazy

I hope people WAKE UP and quit giving blindly to these "men of the cloth" who have made their "calling" a way to fatten their personal pocketbooks. :stop

We must demand accountability in the church. How much is coming in? How much is going out, and where??? A good steward of God's money should be EAGER (even proud) to show these statistics. If they are not willing, then wonder why!!

[tv1a]

Why don't you quote me instead of paraphrasing. In case you haven't noticed, I'm a stickler for accuracy. Here are my words.

"My pastor is worth more than $300,000. It is arrogance to suggest a pastor's salary be capped as long as the finances are there."





SINFUL, in my opinion.

But according to TV1a: A pastor's salary should not be capped, as long as the money is there to take...and to think otherwise is arrogance. (paraphrased). :crazy

I hope people WAKE UP and quit giving blindly to these "men of the cloth" who have made their "calling" a way to fatten their personal pocketbooks. :stop

We must demand accountability in the church. How much is coming in? How much is going out, and where??? A good steward of God's money should be EAGER (even proud) to show these statistics. If they are not willing, then wonder why!!

[MissBrattified]

I don't particularly care about specific salary amounts, although the salaries mentioned above seem gargantuan. It would be more important to me to know what was being done with all that money. Lots of traveling, especially to other countries, can be extremely expensive, so knowing details is important to judging what is reasonable or not. Our church sent our pastor, pastor's wife and son to Japan a few years ago for an anniversary trip because they were former missionaries to Japan, and it cost several thousand dollars. That was a once-in-25-years gift, but I can imagine travel expenses racking up quickly if someone was traveling multiple times per year or month.

Transparency, on the other hand, is very, very important. If a pastor or church board doesn't want to be transparent about what happens to the money the constituents give, that's a big red flag. Those who give have a right to know where the money is going.

[Steve Epley]

People make choices! They choose where to go to church(some choose to stay home) some choose to tithe(some choose not to tithe)some choose to give. The ministry is the only profession I know where some not matter the amount always feel like the preacher is getting too much money. They don't fuss what the doctor makes or the lawyer makes or corporate officiers make. Only preachers. Do some preacher misuse money? I am afraid some might. But their salary is given by folks who choose to support their pastor and really it is no one else's business besides those who give it how much they make.
My pastor was retired from the coal mines for black lung he recieved a settlement and bought a nice car. I remember the grumbling about the car. He bought it with his own money. His salary which was a disgrace was posted on the board for folks to see. Our church was a money church yet they had him on such a small salary. However there was a group of saints in that church wo would not put their tithing through that board nd demanded he take it personally. God bless them.

[seekerman]

People make choices! They choose where to go to church(some choose to stay home) some choose to tithe(some choose not to tithe)some choose to give. The ministry is the only profession I know where some not matter the amount always feel like the preacher is getting too much money. They don't fuss what the doctor makes or the lawyer makes or corporate officiers make. Only preachers. Do some preacher misuse money? I am afraid some might. But their salary is given by folks who choose to support their pastor and really it is no one else's business besides those who give it how much they make.
My pastor was retired from the coal mines for black lung he recieved a settlement and bought a nice car. I remember the grumbling about the car. He bought it with his own money. His salary which was a disgrace was posted on the board for folks to see. Our church was a money church yet they had him on such a small salary. However there was a group of saints in that church wo would not put their tithing through that board nd demanded he take it personally. God bless them.

Everyone makes choices. Some choose to preach a message which promotes them as lord over one of the many building-based 'churches' which they label the "house of God". Some choose to promote the message that they're the individual who controls the application of the redemptive blood of the Lamb of God unto an individual and without them, no blood is applied. Some choose to teach that since an individual controls the application of the blood of the Lamb of God is controlled by them, any deviation from their ritual will withhold the redemptive blood from the individual calling upon Jesus for salvation, i.e., the tremendously ignorant and unlearned statement that "all trinitarians are going to hell".

Some choose to follow a man-centric romanist religious system, others choose not to do that and choose to follow a Jesus-centric gospel instead.

I choose to reject you as mediator between God and man, but others will choose to believe your swill that it's you who holds the blood and it's you who has the power to apply it.

We all make choices. Every one of us.

[Steve Epley]

Everyone makes choices. Some choose to preach a message which promotes them as lord over one of the many building-based 'churches' which they label the "house of God". Some choose to promote the message that they're the individual who controls the application of the redemptive blood of the Lamb of God unto an individual and without them, no blood is applied. Some choose to teach that since an individual controls the application of the blood of the Lamb of God is controlled by them, any deviation from their ritual will withhold the redemptive blood from the individual calling upon Jesus for salvation, i.e., the tremendously ignorant and unlearned statement that "all trinitarians are going to hell".

Some choose to follow a man-centric romanist religious system, others choose not to do that and choose to follow a Jesus-centric gospel instead.

I choose to reject you as mediator between God and man, but others will choose to believe your swill that it's you who holds the blood and it's you who has the power to apply it.

We all make choices. Every one of us.

Speaking of Rome you never did answer if you had an Xmas tree?

[MemphisTN]

People forget Bro. Trimble was Asst. for a while - not a family member.

I wished people who don't know facts would not post false facts. Bro Trimble is a Cousin of Pastor Terry black.

[seekerman]

Speaking of Rome you never did answer if you had an Xmas tree?

You never explained your view that the blood of the Lamb of God isn't imputed to an individual without your intercession with God on behalf of that individual.

:ucuttree:treegifts

[MemphisTN]

Um. You really can't possibly know this. Growing up as a PK I experienced a lot of hurts that those in the pew can't identify with--however, most people have experienced hurt in general and we can all commiserate at that level.

what makes the PK kids say things like this, we should not divide, PK's Parents are also the parents of the church as u, so when they do things to those other KIDS in the Pew's that ur speaking of its' the same thing. I agree with you that sometimes PK kids have a ruff time, but it's like comparing the RICH TO THE POOR. And people in the PEW are somewhat like kids under the pastors their his children and saints, he has to take care of them all. It's a huge responsibility, but often times PK's want pity, and they say that they have had it harder than the ones that come off the street, i don't see it that away, I think we all have it hard on both sides of the fence. we should stop comparing PK's to Saints. Neither has it worse than the other. I have lived upstairs from my pastor and i can hear everything that went on. they are no different than us they just have a lot of Burden but its their JOB they signed up for that job. You didn't sign up to be a PK but u were raised to be one. So i get where u r coming from, but i used to hear the PK kids get up and tell the Other Kids in the church that they had it worse than those that come off the street. I used to get so angry, i hated hearing that. The thing is neither of us have walked in the others shoes so therefore we can't say either way. It's hard for PK and its hard for Non PK. I've seen Ministry families where they were all in it for The Souls and for helping serving People and they just stuck together.

[MemphisTN]

I agree with you from the point of view that a church should be non-profit, although even non-profit organizations pay out salaries to employees.

This thread is going off on a tangent, but I will say this: some pastors accumulate wealth because they take too much of what is given; others accumulate wealth because they are good stewards of what they are given and/or because they have earned money from private efforts. Those who fall into the latter category should be respected for their stewardship, not criticized for it.

Our pastor takes a far-too-modest-salary (IMO) and has to supplement by working outside jobs. I really dislike that, because I know he would be more productive for the church and community if he didn't have to work the extra jobs. When a church asks a pastor to come and work for them, I don't see the problem with the church offering compensation. A pastor is ultimately still a man who needs to provide for his family, first and foremost. I fail to see how working for the church and earning a living should be mutually exclusive.


I believe for every church to survive the Pastor should not work. It's not fair, nor the First Lady. Unless she works at the church. That is what they are here for to Work in the fields& in the Church House. A pastor also has the right to take 100% of the tithes as well for salary if he wishes. But then you have board members who run the church some pastors own their churches and put the UPC logo on it, but the church is not considered a UPCI church but the pastor holds a UPCI license. therefor the pastor owns the church and thus he cannot be kicked to the curb when something happens. In this case i do not know but I would guess that he did not have that control. This church went thru this same ordeal in 1985-1986. I will not say names, but the Former Pastor and Teacher at the academy school of this church--He was having an affair with his secretary and the men of the church board followed him one night when he left the platform during the service and they caught them at the pastors Home and I think they got it on Video for proof.

This church has really had it ruff. I was very surprised to hear of this issue today. When bro black took over he was very hard to deal with!!!! Bro Black grew over the years and became a different person to me. In those days if the Mans hair was to long they would sit you down in 2 seconds. but what gets me is these pastors have these rules that are so over rated, they don't follow some of them but u have to. I went to visit this church years later and i was told that Bro Black didn't live in a big house as the previous pastor lived in a 2 story with a Maid, and bro black didn't even drive a new car. So i cannot say anything about that part. But I saw this day coming in the back of my mind. I wonder how long it would take for this to unfold. Yes he deserves forgiveness and his is human, but when you Hammer down on PEOPLE about RULES and you KNOCK PEOPLE down out of positions because their hair is long and touches their collars thats going over board. But the other more serious rules don't seem to apply here in this situation.

Because if he was doing anything of what has been talked about he should have Sat himself down right after it happened. But it's seems today that a PASTOR can fall down and he can remain the pastor if he commits a SIN that would SIT other's down , who sits him down? I believe that everyone deserves a second chance but in this case, I was the one with my hair touching my COLLAR and i ws drug into his office and told that he never wanted to see me on his platform again, i was on the platform in the dark when church wasn't even going on. But Today I hear that this man has fallen and I wonder why the rules don't apply to them? Because I was not committing ANY SINS , I actually went in to tell him a situation that happened to me as a kid, and I was confused, but he didnt want me having any part of the platform or any leadership. Yet i was not committing any sin. But he can commit Moral sins and he gets the FREE PASS until the People find out about it.

This is why people are fed up with RELIGION and POLITICS. The pastors family has a right to work in the church, I won't say anything about that issue. But it seems to me that everyone in his family was on the payroll just about. including sons in laws.......... All of this stuff back in the day was so strict laws but now we find out that things are being DONE and the rules change when its seems convenient to their situation. to me this is not fair. But everyone at that church went along with it. People's lives are being ruined and people are walking away from church because of Pastors who can RUN THE SHOW any way they want and the rules are changing. The world has been watching this group for a long time and slowly but surely the rules are changing.....NO TV to TV ....NO JEWELRY to Some JEWELRY, Only wedding rings, but now oh women can have an extra ring on the other hand as long as its a mothers day ring and class rings,. Dress code is getting worse, Womens clothes getting tighter skirt splits higher, girls wearing their shirts to their Cleavage..whats next MINI SKIRTS and tank tops? also men waering their pants so tight u can see their JUNK in the TRUNK and UNDER THE HOOD, that's discusting, ... I seen a PASTOR big name in UPC singer too his wife posted a facebook PIC of her in a BIKINI with her TOP untied but she was on her stomach and her whole body was exposed. I just don't get it. It's not ok when the saints mess up, but it's ok when Pastors are getting away with this stuff. It's a double standard and it's not fair.
That's it Im done.
I was a Former Member of this Church thru Both Pastors. So don't say I don't have my Facts because I was there.

[MemphisTN]

More and more I can see the case for biblical pattern of elders overseeeing the church.

I would also be curious to know if Pastor Terry Blacks Mother , MOTHER BLACK, was getting a Paycheck or if she was on the payroll of this church? Not to be mean, she is a sweet lady, The Blacks came in and took over this church or was voted in, His mom drove a Big blue 4 door Mercedes in the days when they took over. I believe that he should care for his Mother but I can almost bet you they found her a position on the Payroll. I now someone will call me out on this but it seems that that whole family including INLAWS were on payroll. If they can do the job hey they should get the job. But it was just a thought that occured to me.

[BrotherEastman]

I agree with you from the point of view that a church should be non-profit, although even non-profit organizations pay out salaries to employees.

This thread is going off on a tangent, but I will say this: some pastors accumulate wealth because they take too much of what is given; others accumulate wealth because they are good stewards of what they are given and/or because they have earned money from private efforts. Those who fall into the latter category should be respected for their stewardship, not criticized for it.

Our pastor takes a far-too-modest-salary (IMO) and has to supplement by working outside jobs. I really dislike that, because I know he would be more productive for the church and community if he didn't have to work the extra jobs. When a church asks a pastor to come and work for them, I don't see the problem with the church offering compensation. A pastor is ultimately still a man who needs to provide for his family, first and foremost. I fail to see how working for the church and earning a living should be mutually exclusive.


I believe for every church to survive the Pastor should not work. It's not fair, nor the First Lady. Unless she works at the church. That is what they are here for to Work in the fields& in the Church House. A pastor also has the right to take 100% of the tithes as well for salary if he wishes. But then you have board members who run the church some pastors own their churches and put the UPC logo on it, but the church is not considered a UPCI church but the pastor holds a UPCI license. therefor the pastor owns the church and thus he cannot be kicked to the curb when something happens. In this case i do not know but I would guess that he did not have that control. This church went thru this same ordeal in 1985-1986. I will not say names, but the Former Pastor and Teacher at the academy school of this church--He was having an affair with his secretary and the men of the church board followed him one night when he left the platform during the service and they caught them at the pastors Home and I think they got it on Video for proof.

This church has really had it ruff. I was very surprised to hear of this issue today. When bro black took over he was very hard to deal with!!!! Bro Black grew over the years and became a different person to me. In those days if the Mans hair was to long they would sit you down in 2 seconds. but what gets me is these pastors have these rules that are so over rated, they don't follow some of them but u have to. I went to visit this church years later and i was told that Bro Black didn't live in a big house as the previous pastor lived in a 2 story with a Maid, and bro black didn't even drive a new car. So i cannot say anything about that part. But I saw this day coming in the back of my mind. I wonder how long it would take for this to unfold. Yes he deserves forgiveness and his is human, but when you Hammer down on PEOPLE about RULES and you KNOCK PEOPLE down out of positions because their hair is long and touches their collars thats going over board. But the other more serious rules don't seem to apply here in this situation.

Because if he was doing anything of what has been talked about he should have Sat himself down right after it happened. But it's seems today that a PASTOR can fall down and he can remain the pastor if he commits a SIN that would SIT other's down , who sits him down? I believe that everyone deserves a second chance but in this case, I was the one with my hair touching my COLLAR and i ws drug into his office and told that he never wanted to see me on his platform again, i was on the platform in the dark when church wasn't even going on. But Today I hear that this man has fallen and I wonder why the rules don't apply to them? Because I was not committing ANY SINS , I actually went in to tell him a situation that happened to me as a kid, and I was confused, but he didnt want me having any part of the platform or any leadership. Yet i was not committing any sin. But he can commit Moral sins and he gets the FREE PASS until the People find out about it.

This is why people are fed up with RELIGION and POLITICS. The pastors family has a right to work in the church, I won't say anything about that issue. But it seems to me that everyone in his family was on the payroll just about. including sons in laws.......... All of this stuff back in the day was so strict laws but now we find out that things are being DONE and the rules change when its seems convenient to their situation. to me this is not fair. But everyone at that church went along with it. People's lives are being ruined and people are walking away from church because of Pastors who can RUN THE SHOW any way they want and the rules are changing. The world has been watching this group for a long time and slowly but surely the rules are changing.....NO TV to TV ....NO JEWELRY to Some JEWELRY, Only wedding rings, but now oh women can have an extra ring on the other hand as long as its a mothers day ring and class rings,. Dress code is getting worse, Womens clothes getting tighter skirt splits higher, girls wearing their shirts to their Cleavage..whats next MINI SKIRTS and tank tops? also men waering their pants so tight u can see their JUNK in the TRUNK and UNDER THE HOOD, that's discusting, ... I seen a PASTOR big name in UPC singer too his wife posted a facebook PIC of her in a BIKINI with her TOP untied but she was on her stomach and her whole body was exposed. I just don't get it. It's not ok when the saints mess up, but it's ok when Pastors are getting away with this stuff. It's a double standard and it's not fair.
That's it Im done.
I was a Former Member of this Church thru Both Pastors. So don't say I don't have my Facts because I was there.

no disrespect intended, but you should really paragraph your posts and space between so that your post aren't to difficult to read.

[MemphisTN]

"Slipped"? That's sugarcoating it to say the least. Slipped would be a lapse in judgment. An unguarded moment. A foolish decision in the heat of the moment. No, this was systematic, habitual, premeditated, weaving an intricate web of deception for years of immoral behavior and stealing all the while projecting himself a champion for holiness standards and the denomination. And he said plenty the week before. He said "you will find questionable things in 54 years, as I would yours". He draws a moral equivalency by basically saying "we all sin" to water down the severity of his sins and hypocrisy. And then he goes on and on about jackals and how they should be shot. And then encouraged everyone to turn to their neighbor and ask them, "Are you a sheep or are you a jackal? They'll already know." So he got his chance to come clean that day, but he chose to try to demonize those who knew the truth about him and called him on it. Why would the board want to trust him to say more after that sham? Did he love the church? After promising to build a new building and raising funds for years and years, with nothing to show for it but an opulent lifestyle and nepotism? Is stealing money from and deceiving a congregation love? Or was it love of self and the lifestyle, the late night expensive steak dinners, the lavish vacations, the houses, the cars, the clothes, the wealth? Give it time, maybe the board will still present something more, maybe they're just trying to work through it.

When this happened in 1985-1986 with the FORMER pastor and his family they threw him out, He even had is DAD the BISHOP of the UPIC come in to his defense but it didn't work, other people came and tried to say Let's over look this mishap. I do get what she is saying about forgetting all he has done. There is just too much going on here.

[MemphisTN]

When this happened in 1985-1986 with the FORMER pastor and his family they threw him out, He even had is DAD the BISHOP of the UPIC come in to his defense but it didn't work, other people came and tried to say Let's over look this mishap. I do get what she is saying about forgetting all he has done. There is just too much going on here.

when i came back to visit 3-4 years ago, a friend told me that Bro Black didn't live in a BIG HOUSE or a Expensive neighbor hood, it was normal and that they drove used CARS. So was this family lying to me because it sounds now like they were living it up/???

[MemphisTN]

I question the spiritual integrity of a person suggesting this forum is exactly what is needed for this situation when the Bible clearly states to avoid with drama. One of my mentors said in these types of conflict, both sides are probably lying. Chances are the truth is different from perception.

i will say this, when a Man of God is sinning behind the scenes and he is Hammering down on the saints heads with a hammer, and sitting them down taking positions away from them for their SCREWUP mishaps, what gives him the right to do this?????????

[MemphisTN]

Amen!!! Leadership is also ACCCOUNTABLE to the flock that they serve. Answers should be given concerning the former Pastor's resignation, and why: it will help to heal and to bring closure...

wow u said it. You are so correct. They won't be able to put it to closure until he comes forward with truth. Everyone deserves to know the truth.

[MemphisTN]

This level of denial is disturbing. Even if you don't have detailed proof of wrongdoing, he resigned. If the man was innocent, why in the world would he step down without a fight? If you require proof, then buckle up because if you ever get it, it's going to obliterate the false image you have constructed about this man. He's not great. He constructed a public image of greatness but in private he was anything but. And if you were a good member, and did your duty, and marched in lock-step, and never asked questions or ever showed signs of not being adoring or had a mind of your own, you would never have seen the side of this man that many saw. Many got to see a self indulgent, self promoting, condescending, manipulative, hypocritical narcissist. And if he started another church, you couldn't pay me to darken those doors.

I agree with CC1, there will be another church. If not pastored by him, by one of the sons in law, with the man lurking in the shadows. And if the ALJC takes him or the WPF he'll connect with them because a big part of his identity was the preaching gigs around the world and country. He'll try to resurrect that. Or he'll get a revelation about grace (hopefully) and minister in a whole new way and actually do a 180 and begin pointing people to the cross, instead of uncut hair and shout down services.

I thought there was scripture about the Bishop failing in a certain sin he could not no longer be a bishop am i missing something?????

[Praxeas]

I believe for every church to survive the Pastor should not work. It's not fair, nor the First Lady. Unless she works at the church. That is what they are here for to Work in the fields& in the Church House. A pastor also has the right to take 100% of the tithes as well for salary if he wishes..
Yeah...that's a bunch of baloney. In a well working church the entire body is working in the fields and in the so called "Church House", with the Pastor equiping the body to do that work

No, he does not have that right. That is where bad pastors come from when they believe they have a right to take.

[MemphisTN]

Pretty much says it.

and all those that have attended this church and have gotten hurt and left or had to leave also DESERVES to know. People who watched on LINE deserve to know. TPC was hiding all that the 1st pastor did in whitehaven to. But they have to answer to people now at a whole different level. You have the internet church to answer to. Don't worry about what happened just deal with it tell the truth and the truth shall set everyone free. Bottom Line. TRUTH SHALL Set U FREE

[MemphisTN]

I have no problem with poor people. There is a reason the ministry is elevated above the saints is to teach saints how to be saints.

If trailer park trash can afford a computer, a cell phone, or a webcam shows they are poor stewards of God's resources. Get off welfare before you proclaim you speak for God.

what the what? where are we going to with TRAILER PARK TRASH. ???? why is POOR PEOPLE or their SOCIAL STATUS in the MIX?????

everyone at this church and the WEB ON LINE church deserve to know the truth.

[BrotherEastman]

When this happened in 1985-1986 with the FORMER pastor and his family they threw him out, He even had is DAD the BISHOP of the UPIC come in to his defense but it didn't work, other people came and tried to say Let's over look this mishap. I do get what she is saying about forgetting all he has done. There is just too much going on here.
Starting to wonder whether you are gossiping about something in which you only may have part of the story. I know you say you were there, but that doesn't mean you know details. Just sayin'

[Praxeas]

I have no problem with poor people. There is a reason the ministry is elevated above the saints is to teach saints how to be saints.

If trailer park trash can afford a computer, a cell phone, or a webcam shows they are poor stewards of God's resources. Get off welfare before you proclaim you speak for God.
The "Ministry" is to teach the rest of us how to be "Ministers"...to serve.

Eph 4:11 And truly He gave some to be apostles, and some to be prophets, and some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers,
Eph 4:12 for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ.

They are our servants.

Mat 20:26 However, it shall not be so among you. But whoever desires to be great among you, let him be your servant.

[The Lemon]

Yeah...that's a bunch of baloney. In a well working church the entire body is working in the fields and in the so called "Church House", with the Pastor equiping the body to do that work

No, he does not have that right. That is where bad pastors come from when they believe they have a right to take.

Yeah...what Prax said!

Seriously, giving at any and every level possible is just plain Christian...be that money, time, talent(s), etc. I do not have a problem per se on full time ministry, but I do have my own opinions on the pro's and possible con's of such.

I have had a full time pastor and I have had a pastor who owned a business outside of the church. Loved them both, respected them both. The biggest difference was that the full time pastor seemdd to be more out of touch with people's work / family schedules, and invented things to fill up church calendars, while the working pastor was very much in touch with said schedules.

Both were annointed, both uased of God. Just a side not, and not that it has anything to do with this thread, but my full time pastor was the one that backslid and lost his marbles shortly after a building program....just a thought.

[Godzchild]

my family was there when all of this started to unfold! *EDITED BY ADMIN--SPECIFIC NAMES REMOVED*

Terry giving the new home on the "church property" to his son and his DIL......but all the while asking for more money in EVERY SERVICE......not once but 2-3 times....for different things....supposedly for the church fund.....bad news! I only feel sorry for one person in this! The mud will cling long after the scandel is over!

[MemphisTN]

Wow!!! I’ve just watch that sermon that Pastor Black preached concerning King David’s transgressions into adultery and murder, and how it was not because of David’s righteousness that God spared this man’s life, and to cleanse him from his guilt, but it was because David was a man that knew how to REPENT; even though the Prophet Nathan had to confront King David. How many times does God’s people today sin, but fail to repent, or to acknowledge their/our sins {keep them supposed hidden}; even with hearing the word over and over again???? My Lord, this sermon touches my heart because I’ve been there as David was with longtime lingering guilt of sins {all of us in some form of sin(s)}, and it took the convictions of God to move me/us to REPENT; this sermons blesses me, reminds me, and humbles my heart to know that we fall short and sin many times over, but it’s the unlimited MERCY and GRACE of God that’s ready to forgive, and to CLEANSE us from ALL unrighteousness. The Psalms 51:1-14 has/is a favorite passage of scriptures oftentimes used by myself to go before God in penitence, and asking for forgiveness of my faults, shortcomings, and sin, and to renew, and restore me Lord back to your grace-in Jesus name!!!! This sermon; though preached many years ago is a REMINDER to us ALL: WE CAN FALL SHORT AND COMMITT GRIEVIOUS SINS, BUT GOD IS THERE WATING/READY TO FORGIVE, BUT WE MUST CONFESS-REPENT, AND TURN FROM THAT/THOSE SINS.

wow they sure are pulling down HIS SERMOMS off the internet really quick. I keep trying to watch these links and they are gone nothing. Hmmmm wonder why?

[Godzchild]

UPCI should pull everything he has touched and said off the internet! He is a mockery UNTIL he repents in from of his congregation and GOD (wrong order) but even after....he has not rights to teach or preach to ANYONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MemphisTN]

Nice try. The protocol to approach an offending brother is found in Matthew 18:15-17. Paul used this method when dealing with the perversion in the Corinthian church. It seemed to work well for him. One other point.



Which poster personally spoke with TB in private? Thought so. Skip the part about going to the person in private and devour him on a public forum. Again show of hands of people who followed the protocol Jesus established in Matthew? Any confront TB with two or three witnesses? Did you take your offense to the congration? Probably not. They would look at you as if you are wierd. If you are offended by the Memphis Mess, at least pretend to be a christian following the directives Jesus established.

The main part of the scripture you should have highlighted was if the brother sinned against thee. Did TB personally do something against you? Clearly the scripture indicates there has to be a personal involvement to the offense. Maybe this was one of the ways Christ was trying to reduce gossip.


1st of all , the UPCI church is the church as a whole. Personal , what the ........ are you talking about personal. Bro Black did this to the entire UPCI group, not just his people in that building, do you realize how many people watch you guys on line live on the WEB? I guess you don't think those of us on the web should KNOW THE TRUTH? or do you ? Even if you belong to another church but you may watch this church on LINE because you love the music or the teaching then he did it to those people to. So you cannot say that Nothing was done personal to this certain person when you don't know if he is a WEB WATCHER or not. SORRY but he needs to ADMIT to the world of the WEB his actions because once you guys GO LIVE ON LINE you have opened up the old saying US 4 & NO MORE, to the whole world. YOU guys in the UPCI religion think that its just in those walls, but remember what TOM TRIMBLE (terry blacks cousin) wrote that song BEYOND THESE WALLS. Your church opened up those walls and went out into the PUBLIC on line so this is about EVERYONE who has ever watched. you don't know that this guy he might be paying tithes to this church in secret and there fore he deserves an answer. Get over it already. you cannot keep things SECRET and in those walls not when you have opened up to BROADCAStiNG to the world, Those days are over the old saying US 4 & NO MORE.
thats the way you would like it, but that's GONE when the WWW WORLD WIDE WEB came into play your church opened up its doors to MEMBERS on the WEB. So how do you know who is paying TITHES and OFFERINGS with credit cards and checks in the mail. U DON"T .

[MemphisTN]

no disrespect intended, but you should really paragraph your posts and space between so that your post aren't to difficult to read.

BTW, Wasn't N.P Urshan the original pastor of the church in question?

Yes He was. I thought i stated that..........sorry about my writing i will try harder to make it eaiser on you and others.

[MemphisTN]

Yeah...that's a bunch of baloney. In a well working church the entire body is working in the fields and in the so called "Church House", with the Pastor equiping the body to do that work

No, he does not have that right. That is where bad pastors come from when they believe they have a right to take.

There is scripture that says the man of God has the right to 100 % of the tithes. It's the offerings that pays the church bills and the pastor can take 100%, most do not because they cannot operate like that, but there are some that do.

[MemphisTN]

Yes He was. I thought i stated that..........sorry about my writing i will try harder to make it eaiser on you and others.

i pretty much used commas and periods i thought, so i don't see where you could be too confused.

[MemphisTN]

but if you like i can rewrite the story and do it in paragraph style for you.

[Godzchild]

I would not watch another sermon by TB if I was on my way to Hell in a handbasket! He is a HYPOCRITE. They ALL knew what was going on ... and yet they were reaping in the benifits of his pathetic life LYING style! I was appauled to know TB asked for money to help buy the russian child!!!!!!:scorebad

[MissBrattified]

i pretty much used commas and periods i thought, so i don't see where you could be too confused.

Your posts will be easier to read if you'll separate your sentences up into paragraphs and put a double-line space between the paragraphs. Every 4-5 sentences, just hit the Enter key twice. :)

[MemphisTN]

Why don't you quote me instead of paraphrasing. In case you haven't noticed, I'm a stickler for accuracy. Here are my words.

"My pastor is worth more than $300,000. It is arrogance to suggest a pastor's salary be capped as long as the finances are there."

i was told by my pastor that , there is scripture that the bible speaks of that says the TITHES belong to the PASTOR and the Offerings pay the bills.

[MemphisTN]

Godzchild, I can only imagine what you are going through. I think most everybody on this forum will be praying for you as we have been for the church and all those affected.

what this TPC group has to understand that you guys decided to go LIVE on the WEB and open up the church to the world by doing so. Past saints and people who watch at home on line around the world Need to hear the truth for the truth shall set everyone free. Just because the UPCI does not Allow TV broadcasting still, doesn't mean that it's just the people in those 4 walls that are affected. This is now a public matter because this church has went PUBLIC by broadcasting itself on line to the world. There are those that pay tithes and send in offerings to FUND ur Church there that never step foot in building for what ever reason. And if someone who sat under him in the past needs to put closure to this then they have every right, Not only u people in those 4 walls are affected here, HE HAS AFFECTED people all over the GLOBE because once again YOU MADE IT PUBLIC on the World wide web. you guys seem to think that the outsiders that don't show up are not affected, or those that never step foot in that building,

None of you know who is paying tithes and offerings unless ur in the accounting dept. So therefore, Let everybody Have some closure. This has probably affected so many the BLACKS are well known in this UPCI group and beyond that, Bro Blacks parents are very well known, and Bro Black was made more POPULAR than his father I would think, after where he took this church from That small Building on airways to where it is now. You don't know the impact he has had on others that are not just sitting on the pews. There are countless members beyond those walls over there. So just stop trying To cover up and hide that which has happened, and just TELL THE TRUTH and LET THE HEALING BEGIN. Until the truth is told and out the HEALING CANNOT BEGIN. AND when a Man of God takes a position like this he owes everyone that truth so that HE himself can start to heal himself and his family and then those outside his family that are his sheep and those that have watched him him thru the years and have sent their tithes and offerings in the mail.

[Godzchild]

Thank you CC1...its been a blow to the heart....to say the least!

[MemphisTN]

Starting to wonder whether you are gossiping about something in which you only may have part of the story. I know you say you were there, but that doesn't mean you know details. Just sayin'

Yes we were there, we heard everything. How is it that you think you know the truth and u were not even in the room? or were you?

[Godzchild]

what this TPC group has to understand that you guys decided to go LIVE on the WEB and open up the church to the world by doing so. Past saints and people who watch at home on line around the world Need to hear the truth for the truth shall set everyone free. Just because the UPCI does not Allow TV broadcasting still, doesn't mean that it's just the people in those 4 walls that are affected. This is now a public matter because this church has went PUBLIC by broadcasting itself on line to the world. There are those that pay tithes and send in offerings to FUND ur Church there that never step foot in building for what ever reason. And if someone who sat under him in the past needs to put closure to this then they have every right, Not only u people in those 4 walls are affected here, HE HAS AFFECTED people all over the GLOBE because once again YOU MADE IT PUBLIC on the World wide web. ur archives and ministry go beyond the walls as TERRY BLACKS Cousin, TOM TRIMBLE wrote the song you sang live on the Internet in the Live Recording at TPC, you guys seem to think that the outsiders that don't show up are not affected, or those that never step foot in that building, None of you know who is paying tithes and offerings unless ur in the accounting dept. So therefore, Let everybody Have some closure. This has probably affected so many the BLACKS are well known in this UPCI group and beyond that, Bro Blacks parents are very well known, and Bro Black was made more POPULAR than his father I would think, after where he took this church from That small Building on airways to where it is now. You don't know the impact he has had on others that are not just sitting on the pews. There are countless members beyond those walls over there. So just stop trying To cover up and hide that which has happened, and just TELL THE TRUTH and LET THE HEALING BEGIN. Until the truth is told and out the HEALING CANNOT BEGIN. AND when a Man of God takes a position like this he owes everyone that truth so that HE himself can start to heal himself and his family and then those outside his family that are his sheep and those that have watched him him thru the years and have sent their tithes and offerings in the mail.

amen to that!:preach but unfortunantly....your speech will fall on many deaf ears!:bedtime

[Charnock]

Poor Terry Black. He's so misunderstood and mistreated.

I think we should receive an offering for him.

[Godzchild]

Poor Terry Black. He's so misunderstood and mistreated.

I think we should receive an offering for him.

:heeheehee rofl.....yeah...so he can buy another BMW for his daughter or son....lol and say its going to a worthy cause! >:-(

[CC1]

The UPCI only discovered "restoration" when the bluebloods son's started having moral failures. Right off the top of my head I can think of three UPC 20th century legends whose sons required either restoration or the appearance of it in the past 25 years or so.

As someone mentioned these sons received treatment strictly based on their last name. Any other licensed minister in their situation would have been toast with no questions asked.

I still highly respect all three of the elders (father's) I refer to but no doubt this bias toward protecting their sons was a weakness. The same weakness I see in much of old time Pentecost and in ex old time Pentecost churches where churches are passed down to sons like a deserved legacy regardless of whether or not the sons are the best person to lead the flock.

[Praxeas]

There is scripture that says the man of God has the right to 100 % of the tithes. It's the offerings that pays the church bills and the pastor can take 100%, most do not because they cannot operate like that, but there are some that do.

Well this should be an interesting topic. Please post this verse that says Pastors have a right to take 100% of tithes.

[Praxeas]

i was told by my pastor that , there is scripture that the bible speaks of that says the TITHES belong to the PASTOR and the Offerings pay the bills.

Are we being punked? You were told by your Pastor?

[Fiyahstarter]

Why don't you quote me instead of paraphrasing. In case you haven't noticed, I'm a stickler for accuracy. Here are my words.

"My pastor is worth more than $300,000. It is arrogance to suggest a pastor's salary be capped as long as the finances are there."

Yeah, that's what I said you said...LOL.

Sorry, I disagree. Half-million dollar homes, Escalades, BMWers, excessive spending... seriously. I don't think God is pleased with pastors fleecing their flocks.

Let's play JEOPARDY!!

I'll take Words that Begin With 'A' for $500

And the answer is:

A lack of this is often too tempting for even the best of people.

What is ACCOUNTABILITY, Alex?

Ding, Ding, Ding.

I'll take Words that Begin With 'A' for $800

And the answer is:

What a person has if they think pastors' salaries should be capped.

What is ARROGANCE, Alex?

No, sorry. We were going for ABSURDITY.

[AreYouReady?]

Yeah, that's what I said you said...LOL.

Sorry, I disagree. Half-million dollar homes, Escalades, BMWers, excessive spending... seriously. I don't think God is pleased with pastors fleecing their flocks.

Let's play JEOPARDY!!

I'll take Words that Begin With 'A' for $500

And the answer is:

A lack of this is often too tempting for even the best of people.

What is ACCOUNTABILITY, Alex?

Ding, Ding, Ding.

I'll take Words that Begin With 'A' for $800

And the answer is:

What a person has if they think pastors' salaries should be capped.

What is ARROGANCE, Alex?

No, sorry. We were going for ABSURDITY.

:jolly

[AreYouReady?]

Just wondering... does this church have an active benevolent fund for the unfortunate?
It would be awesome if they do.

[Tlswift2009]

SINFUL, in my opinion.

But according to TV1a: A pastor's salary should not be capped, as long as the money is there to take...and to think otherwise is arrogance. (paraphrased). :crazy

I hope people WAKE UP and quit giving blindly to these "men of the cloth" who have made their "calling" a way to fatten their personal pocketbooks. :stop

We must demand accountability in the church. How much is coming in? How much is going out, and where??? A good steward of God's money should be EAGER (even proud) to show these statistics. If they are not willing, then wonder why!!
Amen!!!

[Tlswift2009]

I thought there was scripture about the Bishop failing in a certain sin he could not no longer be a bishop am i missing something?????
No-you're on biblical point!!!! There's so MUCH sinning and double-standards going on in the church with certain persons, and family members!!! A Bishop should be EXACTLY what the bible says; BLAMELESS!!! Adultery is NO accident; it's a choice!!!

[hoot]

Well this should be an interesting topic. Please post this verse that says Pastors have a right to take 100% of tithes.

I need to be shown that scripture! Maybe in a small church- I was shocked to learn that LOTS of preachers take 100% of the tithes! I am not talking about little churches- I am talking about preachers making 7 figures. At some point it is just pimps in the pulpits..

[Tlswift2009]

When this happened in 1985-1986 with the FORMER pastor and his family they threw him out, He even had is DAD the BISHOP of the UPIC come in to his defense but it didn't work, other people came and tried to say Let's over look this mishap. I do get what she is saying about forgetting all he has done. There is just too much going on here.
Those persons {the supposed board} that presided over the Pentecostal Church at the time of Pastor Black's resignation should have allowed for a private member mtg only after the Sunday worship service, and allowed Pastor Black to repent at that time so that the healing could/would take place without interuption afterward; meaning-if he comes back now to repent; I'm not sure how this would affect the congregation now.

My wife and I were sent to restore a church of 200 members back in 1989 because the pastor fell into a very wild-blatant adulteress affair with a sister in the church. The pastor refused to repent and he was expelled from the church, but his wife stayed and recovered fairly well. God blessed us to move the church on with great spiritual results and growth; it was awesome. I went in to that situation very cautious and considerate of the people's hurts, wounds, and disappointments, and I took some hits {undeseerved} by several members who were in auxilary leadership {deacons/trustee} positions, but they were only acting out some of their still healing wounds; we developed a good relationship in tme, and trust was restored, and they dealt with me as their new pastor as though nothing ever took place after about a year or two; it was great to see/witness God heal his people: the church prospered in every aspect.

I ministered having faith in God, a teaching series of "giving the gift of forgiveness" by Dr. Charles Stanley, ministered much, much prayer sessions with fasting periods, etc, and God did wonders among that church group. From a smaller scale; I know the ""INS"" of the situation {how it can/does affect the members} that ocurred at TPC-due to my own experience rebuilding the church that God me to; unfortunately, the former pastor never would repent to the people; even though I conversed with him over a 7 year period; he died a freak-tragic fiery accident {he burned up alive} at home during one of his unscheduled days off from work. He was given opportunity to repent, and amend for his betrayal to the church, but he was too bitter with the very people that had followed his ministry faithfully: what a tragic end for this former pastor!!!

[AreYouReady?]

WOW.

That is a sad ending for that former pastor, Bro. Swift.

[Tlswift2009]

Yeah...what Prax said!

Seriously, giving at any and every level possible is just plain Christian...be that money, time, talent(s), etc. I do not have a problem per se on full time ministry, but I do have my own opinions on the pro's and possible con's of such.

I have had a full time pastor and I have had a pastor who owned a business outside of the church. Loved them both, respected them both. The biggest difference was that the full time pastor seemdd to be more out of touch with people's work / family schedules, and invented things to fill up church calendars, while the working pastor was very much in touch with said schedules.

Both were annointed, both uased of God. Just a side not, and not that it has anything to do with this thread, but my full time pastor was the one that backslid and lost his marbles shortly after a building program....just a thought.
When I started pastoring back in 1989; I worked part time for FedEX during the night, and my wife worked full time during the day for FedEX {Hacks Cross}. We were young; me 27, and she was 37 at the time; we never quit our jobs; never had a mind to quit either. I'm a finance/administration, and tax man by profession {college degree}; I established a sound financial accountability system {I.R.S. approved} for the church and had it certified by an expert CPA, and I trainned the deacons/trustees how to take proper care of ALL church finances, money affairs, and stewardship, and my hands were OFF this matter once everything was set in order.

I did a lot of studying and praying during my day hours, and developed a very aggeressive community and prison ministry that went very well, and the church continued to grow, but I never, ever stopped/resigned my job; I did not feel it a leading from the Lord, and I personally did not want to retire; too young, and I wanted to be a financial blessing to the church, and not a burden. I'm pastoring my 3rd church as of October of 2011 in one of the most POOREST sections of Memphis, and I'm still working-lol, and I still DO NOT have a mind to retire; I'm too young-lol; my wife did retire {forced job buy-out} back in 2003, but being a finance man; we prepared for that day coming, and still living very well WITHOUT a church salary.

My personal situation of not receiving a salary from the church is NOT befitting for all, but it was a good/proper thing for me to continue to work and take care of my own family; notwithstanding; the church did bless us financially along the way as they felt that they wanted to do so through the direction of the deacons/trustees, and it was very good. I personally do not feel that a pastor should quit his job just because he's a pastor over a church; it may NOT be financially feasable and/or proper timming of the Lord...Let's remember that the Apostle Paul chose rather to work and support himself so that he would not be a financial burden to the church; especially the new church being develop after the day of Pentecost; the church needed support to survive at that early time. On the other hand; if-when a church can financially support its pastor without hardship, and the people want to see their pastor do full time pastorate without the distraction of working a secular job-when the time is right: GO FOR IT!!!!! Just my personal thought.

[Tlswift2009]

UPCI should pull everything he has touched and said off the internet! He is a mockery UNTIL he repents in from of his congregation and GOD (wrong order) but even after....he has not rights to teach or preach to ANYONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I know that repentance should be made, but I'm wondering how it will now affect this church that seems to still be reeling???? Repentance should have been made upfront during the official resignation. Lord Jesus, help TPC to heal, and survive, and go on to GREATNESS for your glory!!!

[Tlswift2009]

1st of all , the upci church is the church as a whole. Personal , what the ........ Are you talking about personal. Bro black did this to the entire upci group, not just his people in that building, do you realize how many people watch you guys on line live on the web? I guess you don't think those of us on the web should know the truth? Or do you ? Even if you belong to another church but you may watch this church on line because you love the music or the teaching then he did it to those people to. So you cannot say that nothing was done personal to this certain person when you don't know if he is a web watcher or not. Sorry but he needs to admit to the world of the web his actions because once you guys go live on line you have opened up the old saying us 4 & no more, to the whole world. You guys in the upci religion think that its just in those walls, but remember what tom trimble (terry blacks cousin) wrote that song beyond these walls. Your church opened up those walls and went out into the public on line so this is about everyone who has ever watched. You don't know that this guy he might be paying tithes to this church in secret and there fore he deserves an answer. Get over it already. You cannot keep things secret and in those walls not when you have opened up to broadcasting to the world, those days are over the old saying us 4 & no more.
Thats the way you would like it, but that's gone when the www world wide web came into play your church opened up its doors to members on the web. So how do you know who is paying tithes and offerings with credit cards and checks in the mail. U don"t .
very good point(s)!!!! What we do as christians; wheter good or bad affects more than the people within our immediate church confines!!!

[Tlswift2009]

There is scripture that says the man of God has the right to 100 % of the tithes. It's the offerings that pays the church bills and the pastor can take 100%, most do not because they cannot operate like that, but there are some that do.
I've heard this before, but as you say; most churches cannot operate on this basis; especially when it first comes to operate as a church...interesting...

[Tlswift2009]

I would not watch another sermon by TB if I was on my way to Hell in a handbasket! He is a HYPOCRITE They ALL knew what was going on ... and yet they were reaping in the benifits of his pathetic life LYING style! I was appauled to know TB asked for money to help buy the russian child!!!!!!!:scorebad
You know, I have known Pastor Black since about 1996, and he helped {counselled} me and my wife through a very tough, critical point of our lives in ministry; he was awesomely helpful, and it hurts me badly to see him in this situation that has affect/infected so many others-I pray that he be totaly restored in every apsect: THE MAN HAS BEEN USED BY GOD OVER THE YEARS TO DO GREAT THINGS, AND HELP SO MANY, ut I do understand that there's no favoritism with Gos, and it should not be that way in the church; altough we should make sure that we {the church} offer biblical GRACE-FORGIVENESS, and opportunities for RESTORATION; regardless to whether a person can ever preach/teach again; the soul still need redemptiion in order to be saved...

[Tlswift2009]

what this TPC group has to understand that you guys decided to go LIVE on the WEB and open up the church to the world by doing so. Past saints and people who watch at home on line around the world Need to hear the truth for the truth shall set everyone free. Just because the UPCI does not Allow TV broadcasting still, doesn't mean that it's just the people in those 4 walls that are affected. This is now a public matter because this church has went PUBLIC by broadcasting itself on line to the world. There are those that pay tithes and send in offerings to FUND ur Church there that never step foot in building for what ever reason. And if someone who sat under him in the past needs to put closure to this then they have every right, Not only u people in those 4 walls are affected here, HE HAS AFFECTED people all over the GLOBE because once again YOU MADE IT PUBLIC on the World wide web. you guys seem to think that the outsiders that don't show up are not affected, or those that never step foot in that building, None of you know who is paying tithes and offerings unless ur in the accounting dept. So therefore, Let everybody Have some closure. This has probably affected so many the BLACKS are well known in this UPCI group and beyond that, Bro Blacks parents are very well known, and Bro Black was made more POPULAR than his father I would think, after where he took this church from That small Building on airways to where it is now. You don't know the impact he has had on others that are not just sitting on the pews. There are countless members beyond those walls over there. So just stop trying To cover up and hide that which has happened, and just TELL THE TRUTH and LET THE HEALING BEGIN. Until the truth is told and out the HEALING CANNOT BEGIN. AND when a Man of God takes a position like this he owes everyone that truth so that HE himself can start to heal himself and his family and then those outside his family that are his sheep and those that have watched him him thru the years and have sent their tithes and offerings in the mail.
I admire your courage to speak as your have; it's not a popular thing, but MOST necessary. You can pull up just about every crime committed by people n the community on the google; it's our right as law abiding; tax paying citizens to know what's going on in our communities in order to know how-what, and how to function and/or make our life's adjustments based upon what's going on-I feel you're saying the pemise is/should be given, and understood for those that supports and/or become a part of ""ministries gone public""??? I feel that you're beng fair, and that your point(s) should be considered valid....AFF, please don't stone me; MemphisTN is the messager; I'm just agreeing {smiling}...

[Tlswift2009]

i was told by my pastor that , there is scripture that the bible speaks of that says the TITHES belong to the PASTOR and the Offerings pay the bills.
I've heard that before, but I DO NOT believe this will sit well with the laity...

[Tlswift2009]

amen to that!:preach but unfortunantly....your speech will fall on many deaf ears!:bedtime
But MemphisTN post/commentaries has much merit. We should not close our hearts to truths; even if/when it's painful, but we must deal with all issues in the spirit of meekness, but scripturally sound basis/principles-King David would have never repented; perhaps; had not intervene and sent the Prophet Nathan-all sin(s) must be dealt with; remember, the Church of Jesus Christ belongs to Jesus; he's the one that purchased the church with His blood and gruesome sufferings, and Jesus holds ALL men/women accountable for how we deal with His Church...Jesus is a merciful God, but Jesus is also a God of accountability!!!

[Tlswift2009]

I've read the by-laws for I am a licensed minister with the UPCI. And unless you or the deacons were in the room, then you have nothing to say in the matter either.

You sound like you would rather believe a deacon more than you would a pastor. This thread is turning into gossip.
Pastors will, and has LIED before; es[ecially when they're into something ungodly, or trying to protect someone in error....stay true and real to rightness, and righteousness lest you fall into this same snare of deception: be faithful to God more than to anyone else...Love God first and foremost=that's bible!!!!

[Tlswift2009]

The UPCI only discovered "restoration" when the bluebloods son's started having moral failures. Right off the top of my head I can think of three UPC 20th century legends whose sons required either restoration or the appearance of it in the past 25 years or so.

As someone mentioned these sons received treatment strictly based on their last name. Any other licensed minister in their situation would have been toast with no questions asked.

I still highly respect all three of the elders (father's) I refer to but no doubt this bias toward protecting their sons was a weakness. The same weakness I see in much of old time Pentecost and in ex old time Pentecost churches where churches are passed down to sons like a deserved legacy regardless of whether or not the sons are the best person to lead the flock.
Amen!!!!

[Tlswift2009]

WOW.

That is a sad ending for that former pastor, Bro. Swift.
Amen!!! I was disciplined {silenced from preaching} twice as a young minister over 25 years ago, and once about 20 years ago while pastoring; NO adultery or money issues involved; just the growing challenges of getting along in my marriage during our first year, and once for not making wise decision with a family in the church, and while it was pauinfully embarrasing, and hurtful to my ego; it helped to make me a better husband-minister, and pastor. I thank God for the ministers that's not afraid to hold other leadership; even pastors accountable for their actions; if this is done according to biblical principles; it would help to detour possible shipwrecks of scandals, and it would spare God people from harm, and the church from the snares of reproach!!! I AM VERY AWARE OF WHAT'S EXPECTED OF MY BY GOD-THE CHURCH, AND THE WORLD!!! GODLY CHARACTER, AND INTEGRITY!!!

[not4saken]

This thread makes for some very interesting reading. I have been 'out of the loop' for awhile, as I no longer attend an Apostolic church. I am 5th generation apostolic- PK. When my mom mentioned to me last week about Bro. TB, I knew immediately where to go, to get answers for her. And...you didn't disappoint! I realize that not every word typed on this forum is true- but there is ALWAYS a grain of truth in EVERY POST. Whether large, or small...truth will be present. This nation is full of people that are disallusioned, disgusted and tired of closing their eyes to the blatant wrong-doings of those in leadership within the confines of the so-called TRUTH. We are taught that we should forgive and move on. We are to hold ministry in the highest regard. "Touch not my anointed" has come forth from every single pulpit in the Apostolic movement, I would wager. What they seem to forget is this- we are ALL God's anointed. NOT just the ministry. I lived in a preacher's/pastor's home all of my life. My friends were children of pastors...ALL good men, striving to do the right things. Living good lives...trying to live above reproach. But, my daddy always admonished me to never put a MAN on a pedastal. He may be a God called man- but he is still just that- a MAN. Flesh. And, just like all of us, if pastors do not DIE to their flesh- DAILY, they will fall. Period. He has an advocate with his Father, Jesus Christ the righteous, just as all of us do! I marvel at our shock whenever we hear of yet another minister falling into sin...isn't it just a fulfillment of His Word? YOU are not exempt, let me tell ya. The fact that TB hid his sin for years, is disgusting. And do you, for ONE second think that his wife was not aware?? Don't be fooled. She KNEW. She chose to be ignorant. What fools. She also owes those precious people of God an apology. I find this whole situation to be sickening and the debauchery that soaps are made of. And yet, we are having a feeding frenzy over it. Shame on us. Where shall the sinner and the ungodly appear??? The very righteous are SCARCELY going to make it in, folks. My daddy always told me, when a man of God beats his saints over the head with the same stuff over and over and over- beware. HE is the one with the problem, and time will reveal his weakness and his failure in THAT area. I have witnessed this over and over in Pentecost. (as well as other denoms) We all need to remember that we are all sinners, saved by GRACE. God requires something of His bride. Some find the cost too high. And some, like myself, have lost all hope of EVER being able to measure up to a man's yardstick. I throw myself on the mercy seat, and pray with alllll my being, that God is more forgiving than the men I have sat under. God bless you all...God's family is a close-knit group. "And by THIS shall ALL men KNOW ye are my disciples- by your LOVE one for the other". I am so thankful that He is a just God. A righteous Judge. And a loving Father.

[H Gang]

He was THE BEST pastor ever.

Delusional

[Not ashamed]

I just have to say a few things to those who were former members of TPC (like myself). First, I feel your pain. I get it, it's a raw wound and you want to cry foul. It's a perfectly normal human desire.

However, calling people's names here when they aren't here to defend themselves is unfair. I understand you see that things weren't as they should be, as do I, but calling people out for anything they may have done in the past 20 years is unproductive at best.

Secondly, there are still some "facts" being tossed around here about some people that don't quite square with what I know, but getting into a war of facts won't solve a thing, who knows who to believe on the internet anyway?

I'd like to use this anology: TPC is like the victim of a gunshot wound. They were hit out of the blue and spent some time on life-support in critical condition. Now, their condition is still very serious, they have lost some "blood" (members), but the heart is still pumping and it looks like the patient may yet recover fully. The most important thing is to make sure the patient doesn't die. Finding out exactly what caliber of gun the bullet came from might ease some of the confusion, but in reality, it won't change the prognosis of the patient at all.

I get why you want the light of day on every gory detail, part of me does too. I feel like a fool in some ways for trusting TB with my thoughts and my soul. But the church is moving on, and we should too. God will deal with TB and everyone else involved, I pray they seek His mercy. Whatever wrongs were done by TB or others are over now. It is time to mend the damage done.

I pray most of all for the precious saints at TPC to find strength & healing, the ones I've spoken to are still deeply wounded by this, and many are struggling mightily.

Instead of taking this to the internet, let's take it to God. Nothing hides from Him. Brothers, sisters, I beseech you...for your own peace of mind & soul...give it to God & leave it there. God bless you, you will be in my prayers, I pray I'm in yours.

[Chateau d'If]

This thread makes for some very interesting reading. I have been 'out of the loop' for awhile, as I no longer attend an Apostolic church. I am 5th generation apostolic- PK. When my mom mentioned to me last week about Bro. TB, I knew immediately where to go, to get answers for her. And...you didn't disappoint! I realize that not every word typed on this forum is true- but there is ALWAYS a grain of truth in EVERY POST. Whether large, or small...truth will be present. This nation is full of people that are disallusioned, disgusted and tired of closing their eyes to the blatant wrong-doings of those in leadership within the confines of the so-called TRUTH. We are taught that we should forgive and move on. We are to hold ministry in the highest regard. "Touch not my anointed" has come forth from every single pulpit in the Apostolic movement, I would wager. What they seem to forget is this- we are ALL God's anointed. NOT just the ministry. I lived in a preacher's/pastor's home all of my life. My friends were children of pastors...ALL good men, striving to do the right things. Living good lives...trying to live above reproach. But, my daddy always admonished me to never put a MAN on a pedastal. He may be a God called man- but he is still just that- a MAN. Flesh. And, just like all of us, if pastors do not DIE to their flesh- DAILY, they will fall. Period. He has an advocate with his Father, Jesus Christ the righteous, just as all of us do! I marvel at our shock whenever we hear of yet another minister falling into sin...isn't it just a fulfillment of His Word? YOU are not exempt, let me tell ya. The fact that TB hid his sin for years, is disgusting. And do you, for ONE second think that his wife was not aware?? Don't be fooled. She KNEW. She chose to be ignorant. What fools. She also owes those precious people of God an apology. I find this whole situation to be sickening and the debauchery that soaps are made of. And yet, we are having a feeding frenzy over it. Shame on us. Where shall the sinner and the ungodly appear??? The very righteous are SCARCELY going to make it in, folks. My daddy always told me, when a man of God beats his saints over the head with the same stuff over and over and over- beware. HE is the one with the problem, and time will reveal his weakness and his failure in THAT area. I have witnessed this over and over in Pentecost. (as well as other denoms) We all need to remember that we are all sinners, saved by GRACE. God requires something of His bride. Some find the cost too high. And some, like myself, have lost all hope of EVER being able to measure up to a man's yardstick. I throw myself on the mercy seat, and pray with alllll my being, that God is more forgiving than the men I have sat under. God bless you all...God's family is a close-knit group. "And by THIS shall ALL men KNOW ye are my disciples- by your LOVE one for the other". I am so thankful that He is a just God. A righteous Judge. And a loving Father.

Gotta love this post. Schizophrenic much?

[Old Paths]

Sad day when the inmates are running the nut house.



:D

[Steve Epley]

Sad day when the inmates are running the nut house.



:D

Yikes.

[not4saken]

Gotta love this post. Schizophrenic much?

HAHAHA...I guess it DOES sound that way. Just to clarify: my mama was saddened when she heard the gossip..she was tryin to confirm whether or not it was true...NOW, as for ME? Wellllllll.....the jury is still out. :christmoose

[Godzchild]

I just have to say a few things to those who were former members of TPC (like myself). First, I feel your pain. I get it, it's a raw wound and you want to cry foul. It's a perfectly normal human desire.

However, calling people's names here when they aren't here to defend themselves is unfair. I understand you see that things weren't as they should be, as do I, but calling people out for anything they may have done in the past 20 years is unproductive at best.

Secondly, there are still some "facts" being tossed around here about some people that don't quite square with what I know, but getting into a war of facts won't solve a thing, who knows who to believe on the internet anyway?

I'd like to use this anology: TPC is like the victim of a gunshot wound. They were hit out of the blue and spent some time on life-support in critical condition. Now, their condition is still very serious, they have lost some "blood" (members), but the heart is still pumping and it looks like the patient may yet recover fully. The most important thing is to make sure the patient doesn't die. Finding out exactly what caliber of gun the bullet came from might ease some of the confusion, but in reality, it won't change the prognosis of the patient at all.

I get why you want the light of day on every gory detail, part of me does too. I feel like a fool in some ways for trusting TB with my thoughts and my soul. But the church is moving on, and we should too. God will deal with TB and everyone else involved, I pray they seek His mercy. Whatever wrongs were done by TB or others are over now. It is time to mend the damage done.

I pray most of all for the precious saints at TPC to find strength & healing, the ones I've spoken to are still deeply wounded by this, and many are struggling mightily.

Instead of taking this to the internet, let's take it to God. Nothing hides from Him. Brothers, sisters, I beseech you...for your own peace of mind & soul...give it to God & leave it there. God bless you, you will be in my prayers, I pray I'm in yours.

"If the shoes fit...wear them"......and they all fit the ones whos names were called...sadly to say! I am NOT a memeber of TPC anymore...when all of the mess started to UNFOLD....I knew , as well as others, knew it was going to end BADLY! Just didnt know how bad until this! TB has alot of things to answer to God for and my family will be one of them! He stood by and allowed things to go on even when he SEEN them happening, and said nothing! Shame on you TB...and hopes that your wife will make the mud cling longer by divorcing you! Just wondering what TB will do without the church keeping them up in 200,000.00 homes, new wardrobes each week, new BMWS and College funds paid for.......not to mention...the pocket money....oh and buying children from Russia....guess they'lll have to see whats it like to be in the real world...GETTING A JOB TO PAY UR BILLS INSTEAD OF TAKING THE CHURCH's !!!!!!:angelsad

[Godzchild]

Delusional

One's opinion.......one of which means as much to me as the people on here who make comments such as YOURS!!! :bumpHave a blessed day!

[Admin]

The AFF Admin team has discussed this thread and decided to reopen it. The last few pages of posts have been "cleaned up" to remove non-pertinent or unnecessarily damaging information and while we are going to allow the discussion to continue, there are stipulations:


1. Do NOT name names of innocent parties who have no way of defending themselves or refuting accusations. The only person that can be named on this thread is Terry Black. (Unless you are saying something positive, obviously, like, "_____ is a fantastic preacher.)


2. Do NOT use this thread as a means to dredge up old scandals and accusations that are irrelevant to this discussion or unproven/unsupported with facts. Stay on topic.


3. If you want to refer to similar situations to make a point, do so vaguely so that no one can pinpoint the specifics. Example: "I had a similar experience when my previous pastor had an affair with the secretary." No names, no places. You can talk about situations without sharing details.


4. If you have a problem with a post, REPORT IT. This thread is so long, so extensive and moves so quickly that it is nearly impossible for the moderators to keep up with it all. REPORT posts that violate the rules and give us a reasonable amount of time to handle it. If we missed something during our "clean-up", report it and we will look into it.


If you do not abide by these stipulations, your posts will be removed and you will be warned and infracted as necessary.

Furthermore, ALL NEW MEMBERS must read the AFF Rules (http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=35). You are expected to read them and we will hold you accountable to them.

[Godzchild]

Wondering where TB will attend church now and if he will ever decide to make things right with TPC members.......(according to some of them, he has not)...just wondering. As a former member , I feel he owes me nothing , but I owe him my forgiveness. I am not his judge. Matthew 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Hope he finds peace and forgiveness from all !

[Timmy]

Glad there's no unnecessarily damaging info, anymore. :heeheehee

[tv1a]

Forgiveness is not predicated upon the offending admitting guilt.

Makes you wonder what the teach in apostolic circles.

wow u said it. You are so correct. They won't be able to put it to closure until he comes forward with truth. Everyone deserves to know the truth.

[Cindy]

Forgiveness is not predicated upon the offending admitting guilt.

Makes you wonder what the teach in apostolic circles.

This is true, we are to forgive as we are forgiven. What a concept, huh?

[tv1a]

Forgiveness means Lord, spare the person the punishment.

This is true, we are to forgive as we are forgiven. What a concept, huh?

[not4saken]

If we waited for an apology everytime we felt 'wronged' by someone, we would be severely disappointed sometimes, I'm afraid. Not everyone IS sorry, therefore seeing NO NEED to make apologies. (no matter if we feel we are OWED an apology, or not) JMHO

[StillStanding]

Forgiveness is not predicated upon the offending admitting guilt.

Makes you wonder what the teach in apostolic circles.



Someone said to me once that even God doesn't forgive unless you ask him to forgive! Otherwise, everybody is going to heaven no matter how sinful they are or their particular religious belief, if any at all.

[tv1a]

This thread exposed roots of bitterness.

If we waited for an apology everytime we felt 'wronged' by someone, we would be severely disappointed sometimes, I'm afraid. Not everyone IS sorry, therefore seeing NO NEED to make apologies. (no matter if we feel we are OWED an apology, or not) JMHO

[Hizzangel]

I've got to tell ya, I was impressed when this thread was closed. As the admins stated, the thread and topics have been exhausted. It's really exposed a lot of people's personal agendas and axes they have to grind.

How many people on here have actually spoke to TB? How many of you have verified facts with him or his family? I can tell you, I have. A lot of things are way off on this forum. And for those who keep stating he should apologize to the church, he asked the board for the opportunity to speak to the church immediately- they denied him.

For those truly concerned about him- He and Sis. Black are doing just fine.

I pray that those on here who spew bitterness out with every post or bring innocent children into this really consider their words before posting again.
I am sure there will be those who attack me for what I've said...but really people-move on. Apostolics are the worst at devouring their own- and preaching forgiveness and acceptance but then be selective to whom it is given.

[Cindy]

I've got to tell ya, I was impressed when this thread was closed. As the admins stated, the thread and topics have been exhausted. It's really exposed a lot of people's personal agendas and axes they have to grind.

How many people on here have actually spoke to TB? How many of you have verified facts with him or his family? I can tell you, I have. A lot of things are way off on this forum. And for those who keep stating he should apologize to the church, he asked the board for the opportunity to speak to the church immediately- they denied him.

For those truly concerned about him- He and Sis. Black are doing just fine.

I pray that those on here who spew bitterness out with every post or bring innocent children into this really consider their words before posting again.
I am sure there will be those who attack me for what I've said...but really people-move on. Apostolics are the worst at devouring their own- and preaching forgiveness and acceptance but then be selective to whom it is given.

:santathumb

[tv1a]

I don't think you'll get much resistance. I took a lot of the heat for you. The first admendment trumps wisdon and biblical principle.

I've got to tell ya, I was impressed when this thread was closed. As the admins stated, the thread and topics have been exhausted. It's really exposed a lot of people's personal agendas and axes they have to grind.

How many people on here have actually spoke to TB? How many of you have verified facts with him or his family? I can tell you, I have. A lot of things are way off on this forum. And for those who keep stating he should apologize to the church, he asked the board for the opportunity to speak to the church immediately- they denied him.

For those truly concerned about him- He and Sis. Black are doing just fine.

I pray that those on here who spew bitterness out with every post or bring innocent children into this really consider their words before posting again.
I am sure there will be those who attack me for what I've said...but really people-move on. Apostolics are the worst at devouring their own- and preaching forgiveness and acceptance but then be selective to whom it is given.

[tv1a]

Why did you have to screw up your post with the statement about TB and his wife? I don't care who you are. Pretty stupid move to add fuel to the fire then end your post with God bless.

No-one has axes to grind nor has there been any lies told thus far about children, family and money...etc! I AM family and I KNOW what all is what and about what is going on behind closed doors. PLEASE do not ask me who I am and please save your time and efforts on emailing me. Sad to say hurt has turned to anger, anger has turned to bitterness and now this thread was reopened to have more mud slung,:stirpot more gossip spoken :naughty and more people posting things they THINK they know and more mere assumptions. To the former and active members as well, may God grant you peace and forgiveness for TB and all who were involved. By the way, thngs are not as "you" think they are between TB and wife :club God bless

[OnenessChild]

Why did you have to screw up your post with the statement about TB and his wife? I don't care who you are. Pretty stupid move to add fuel to the fire then end your post with God bless.

:killinme:yourock p.s. "ignore list" is up and running! LOL

[Godzchild]

:ouch oh sweet Lord...here we go again! Glad Im out of this one :oops Hope everyone had a wonderdul Sunday. Church was awesome, Pastor rocked and people was filled with the Holy Ghost and baptized in the percious name of Jesus~

[tv1a]

I just pointed OnenessChild lack of honor and integrity. Now we see cowardice.

:killinme:yourock p.s. "ignore list" is up and running! LOL

[Praxeas]

This thread exposed roots of bitterness.
It also exposes the root of arrogance, pride and corruption in "the Ministry"

[tv1a]

Did you get the memo the good news is not permitted on this thread? Feels weird to read a good report.

:ouch oh sweet Lord...here we go again! Glad Im out of this one :oops Hope everyone had a wonderdul Sunday. Church was awesome, Pastor rocked and people was filled with the Holy Ghost and baptized in the percious name of Jesus~

[tv1a]

If you are talking about the post, it didn't expose anything but one's predjudices.

It also exposes the root of arrogance, pride and corruption in "the Ministry"

[Hizzangel]

I do not believe for one second that onenesschild is a member of TB's family. You might have looked at yourself as family, but I find it very difficult to believe that any member of TB's family would post on here. I'd say you're a former member of his ministerial staff.

[Praxeas]

If you are talking about the post, it didn't expose anything but one's predjudices.

I was talking about the thread...not the post, because YOU said "the thread"

[Praxeas]

:killinme:yourock p.s. "ignore list" is up and running! LOL

OC. you are a family member? Do you live there in Memphis? Attended this church?

[Godzchild]

happy to hear things are ok with the family...... But , did I already mention church was awesome today and the move of God was tremendous~time to MOVE ON past this "worn out and used up thread" @ TV1A...lol It slipped my mind...

[Hizzangel]

This thread should be closed.

[Bishop Cleatus]

I'm a bishop, and I approve this thread remaining open. Never question a bishop.

[AreYouReady?]

There you are Cleatus. Where have you been? :foottap

[not4saken]

This thread exposed roots of bitterness.

Not me...wasn't speaking out of bitterness in the least. I was just just stating facts. We are not always gonna receive apologies from folks we feel we deserve them form- we are still expected to forgive them :) Best way ta live in my book. I have been forgiven SO much- I owe that to same blessing to everyone else!

as for the TB situation- don't know them, have no bone to pick with ANYONE on the subject. He serves a forgiving Father of second, third, fourth, and more, chances- That's all he needs- GOD.

[CC1]

Someone PM'd me that David Ellis was starting a church in Memphis called "The Apostolics of Memphis". Does anybody know if this is true? If so is the church independent, UPC, AWCF, ALJC, or something else?

[Hizzangel]

True. You can find them on Facebook

[revdtzombik]

Wondering under what title on FB can they be found?
Thank you,
The Rev

[Hizzangel]

Apostolics of Memphis. The logo is a flaming A

[pelathais]

Many of these passages are not just addressing ministers but everyone so are you guys going to work for free?

Steve-r-ino makes an excellent point. Something that I've noticed is that a lot of folks who advocate for doing their offerings and such "just like the first century church" fail to account for the way modern economies operate.

We create wealth today. Back then they had to either grow it, breed and raise it, fish it, chop it, weave it or dig it out of the ground. We've got a playing field that simply didn't exist in the first century.

Perhaps that's why we see so many running afoul of the rules and such. There really is a lot of gray that you can find yourself swallowed up in, even with the best of intentions. - - - Not really speaking about "Memphis area" here, just generally and along the lines of The Epilator's profundity.

Oh. And it's January. Get rid of the Xmas decorations already.

[tv1a]

Typo on my part. Sorry.
I was talking about the thread...not the post, because YOU said "the thread"

[tv1a]

Add an embarassment to christianity. I wouldn't trust that person to clean toilets.

I do not believe for one second that onenesschild is a member of TB's family. You might have looked at yourself as family, but I find it very difficult to believe that any member of TB's family would post on here. I'd say you're a former member of his ministerial staff.

[tv1a]

OC doesn't want to be identified. OC has as much credibility as Hitler in a synogogue.

OC. you are a family member? Do you live there in Memphis? Attended this church?

[Bishop Cleatus]

There you are Cleatus. Where have you been? :foottap

Oh, I have been here. Watching, waiting, and judging those of you who need it. I will soon offer gentle correction or public humiliation depending on what you've done.

[Timmy]

Steve-r-ino makes an excellent point. Something that I've noticed is that a lot of folks who advocate for doing their offerings and such "just like the first century church" fail to account for the way modern economies operate.

We create wealth today. Back then they had to either grow it, breed and raise it, fish it, chop it, weave it or dig it out of the ground. We've got a playing field that simply didn't exist in the first century.

Perhaps that's why we see so many running afoul of the rules and such. There really is a lot of gray that you can find yourself swallowed up in, even with the best of intentions. - - - Not really speaking about "Memphis area" here, just generally and along the lines of The Epilator's profundity.

Oh. And it's January. Get rid of the Xmas decorations already.

:gotcha

[Steve Epley]

There are sure some bitter folks on this thread.

[Timmy]

There are sure some bitter folks on this thread.

And you sound bitter about folks being bitter. :lol

[Monterrey]

Whaaaaaaaaaaat! Thought this thing was dead!

Where's Timmy? He doubts the miraculous but we just witnessed a resurrection!

[Timmy]

Whaaaaaaaaaaat! Thought this thing was dead!

Where's Timmy? He doubts the miraculous but we just witnessed a resurrection!

I'm a believer!!! :lol

[Godzchild]

:chat sounds on tap to me

[revdtzombik]

Apostolics of Memphis. The logo is a flaming A

Tried to pull this up on FB but it does not come up....any way to post it ??

[Bishop Cleatus]

It's not bitterness, it's righteous indignation. Or something like that.

[Cindy]

It's not bitterness, it's righteous indignation. Or something like that.

Indigestion?

[AreYouReady?]

It's not bitterness, it's righteous indignation. Or something like that.

Bishop Cleatus, you are one of my favorite people here on AFF. I say that will all sincerity. :)

Did you learn that at SEU? :toofunny

[AreYouReady?]

Indigestion?

:ursofunny

Could be.

[tv1a]

Wonder who rolled the stone away?

Whaaaaaaaaaaat! Thought this thing was dead!

Where's Timmy? He doubts the miraculous but we just witnessed a resurrection!

[CC1]

Apostolics of Memphis. The logo is a flaming A

I can't find them under that name.

[Old Paths]

Someone PM'd me that David Ellis was starting a church in Memphis called "The Apostolics of Memphis". Does anybody know if this is true? If so is the church independent, UPC, AWCF, ALJC, or something else?

Which David Ellis?

Where's he from.............

[revdtzombik]

I can't find them under that name.

I could not find them either under that name on FB or Google...

maybe it is another logo or name....

[CC1]

Which David Ellis?

Where's he from.............

I believe he was on staff at TPC under TB.

[revdtzombik]

I believe he was on staff at TPC under TB.

That is correct but not sure if he was on staff, but, he was working in the Church and also prison ministry there.

[Godzchild]

Yes he was on the ministry staff ~ and (according to a member of TPC) has started a church

[Sarah]

Steve-r-ino makes an excellent point. Something that I've noticed is that a lot of folks who advocate for doing their offerings and such "just like the first century church" fail to account for the way modern economies operate.

We create wealth today. Back then they had to either grow it, breed and raise it, fish it, chop it, weave it or dig it out of the ground. We've got a playing field that simply didn't exist in the first century.

Perhaps that's why we see so many running afoul of the rules and such. There really is a lot of gray that you can find yourself swallowed up in, even with the best of intentions. - - - Not really speaking about "Memphis area" here, just generally and along the lines of The Epilator's profundity.

Oh. And it's January. Get rid of the Xmas decorations already.


Good post! And if we REALLY wanted to be like the NT church, we would lump all of our stuff together and have all things in common. Can't you just hear the outcry if something like that was suggested? lol Rather give my ten percent. It just makes more sense...and it helps to fund the work of God!

[AreYouReady?]

Steve-r-ino makes an excellent point. Something that I've noticed is that a lot of folks who advocate for doing their offerings and such "just like the first century church" fail to account for the way modern economies operate.

Steve-r-ino uses the point of the way modern economies operate to justify his living, yet he wants women to live and dress "just like the first century church".
If I was a gambler, I would be willing to bet that he gets a tithe off women working.

Most tithe preaching pastors want their wife to stay home and raise their children, yet they don't mind taking a tithe off the other man's wife's labor, who incidentally cannot stay home and raise her children because of modern day economics.

We create wealth today. Back then they had to either grow it, breed and raise it, fish it, chop it, weave it or dig it out of the ground. We've got a playing field that simply didn't exist in the first century.

There is no monetary wealth today and I know you are intelligent enough to know that fact. Back in the First Century, land, animals and gold was the wealth. God gave the increase of real food. Real vineyards, not genetically modified fruit, not hybrid fruit. Real figs. Real fish. Not genetically modified fish or cloned beef. Now days people cannot even afford to stay in their homes. Back then, people owned their possessions. Now days, don't pay your estate taxes or your personal property taxes and see who owns your "wealth".

The fiat money system is going down in flames. Inflation has devalued our fiat dollar to the point that we do not know from one payday to the next what commodity is going to rise to bust our budget.

[Hizzangel]

I could not find them either under that name on FB or Google...

maybe it is another logo or name....

Here is a screen shot. Can't get the link in my phone

[Timmy]

Here is a screen shot. Can't get the link in my phone

Here ya go:

https://www.facebook.com/ApostolicsofMemphis

Weird. Facebook's own search couldn't find it. Had to use Google.

[Farfel]

Here ya go:

https://www.facebook.com/ApostolicsofMemphis

Weird. Facebook's own search couldn't find it. Had to use Google.

It must be fairly new.

[Cindy]

It must be fairly new.

The opening service will be next Sunday.

[Godzchild]

:poetic Im SOOOOO stunned at who the Asst. Pastor is????????????????? He was NEVER on the minisrty staff as even a "up coming" minister......wow!!!! To appoint someone that position ...... one who only worked in the sound/video dept.....occasionally the choir....... Oh, I will stop now!:oops

[CC1]

It is so weird that when I search for "Apostolics of Memphis" on FB I can't find them.

[Cindy]

It is so weird that when I search for "Apostolics of Memphis" on FB I can't find them.

You have to Google it.

[Farfel]

It is so weird that when I search for "Apostolics of Memphis" on FB I can't find them.

Since it's a new page, it's probably going to be a bit before it shows in the search. It's the same way with Twitter.

[Fiyahstarter]

Good post! And if we REALLY wanted to be like the NT church, we would lump all of our stuff together and have all things in common. Can't you just hear the outcry if something like that was suggested? lol Rather give my ten percent. It just makes more sense...and it helps to fund the work of God!

Don't mind paying my share...as a matter of fact, I am eager to.

I just need some assurance that the money is going toward the WORK OF GOD and not toward the WORK OF IMMORALITY.

[CC1]

Don't mind paying my share...as a matter of fact, I am eager to.

I just need some assurance that the money is going toward the WORK OF GOD and not toward the WORK OF IMMORALITY.

Pyro, I agree. Some people say just give it to God and don't worry about how it is used. I agree mostly with that premise in that I don't think the tithe payer should micro manage what is done with their tithe money.

However like you said I believe we have a responsibility to tithe to those who are actually using the tithe for God's work and if one knowingly tithes to someone they know is not using the tithe to support God's work then they are not pleasing God and will have to answer to him for it.

[CC1]

It will be interesting to see how many TPC members this new church "Apostolics of Memphis" pulls away since it is pastored by a minister formally attached to and associated with TPC.

If anybody affilated with this new church reads this can you please comment on what basis this new church is starting? Is it on the premise that the pastor feels TPC treated TB unfairly so he no longer wants to be a part of TPC and wants to offer an alternative for like minded TB supporters?

[chad1957662]

DE a former minister at TPC is starting a new church. DE background is that he is the son of a Baptist Minister from Jackson TN that received the HG at a bring your own friend service at TPC about 7 years ago. He was a right hand man (favorite) for TB (administrative, organizer), and you would see him on the platform, took trips to NYC, and other preaching points that TB had. Most every Sunday that TB was in town he would go with the entourage and place little placard where everyone was to sit, before TB and their family arrived. It has since been shown that all these meals were paid for by the church. He also co-chaired the Ministerial Association and enforced and enacted various projects that TB had. He also claimed to be a son in the Gospel, a Timothy if you would of TB. He frequently used the word "Apostle" for TB, and encouraged others to do so. His motive for leaving is that he was upset that the church board refused to honor a $250,000+ severance pay for TB and his SIL's that he helped negotiate (in a motel room meeting with CJ) at the time of TB resignation. He felt that even if they decided not to pay TB, that they should at least pay the SIL's.

He asked the UPC if they would allow him to open a church in Memphis, and he was told not right now. It is a bad time, and rumor has it, that he met with TB and was informed that TB planned to open a church in Olive Branch, MS and if he would wait a couple months, then TB would turn it over to him after it got off the ground. He decided not to wait or be involved in that church, and rented a building on Mendenhall in the Hickory Hill area of Memphis. He has taken several member that weren't going anywhere and one family that was attending regularly. It looks like there will be 20-30 members all who are the in-out types, that were never really faithful in attendance.

When told that all the ministers were being set down and being placed on equal level after TB left, he stated "I am called to minister, and if I'm not going to have a future here, then my family and I will have to do something else". He sat for two weeks in the congregation and then left to attend "Lighthouse UPC" in Jackson, TN with the rest of TB SIL's and wife.

He will now be able to minister, without having to sit down with the other ministers at TPC.

[CC1]

He sat for two weeks in the congregation and then left to attend "Lighthouse UPC" in Jackson, TN with the rest of TB SIL's and wife.

He will now be able to minister, without having to sit down with the other ministers at TPC.

You did not include TB himself in your list of who left to attend Lighthouse UPC in Jackson. Is TB not attending church with his wife and family?

I travel to Olive Branch every couple of months or so on business so maybe I will be able to visit TB's new church there when it opens. For those not familiar with the geography of the area OB is essentially like a suburb of Memphis. So as predicted looks like TB is starting a church in his same town although technically he can say it is even in a different state.

[Cindy]

This is why this thread can't die.

[Praxeas]

You did not include TB himself in your list of who left to attend Lighthouse UPC in Jackson. Is TB not attending church with his wife and family?

I travel to Olive Branch every couple of months or so on business so maybe I will be able to visit TB's new church there when it opens. For those not familiar with the geography of the area OB is essentially like a suburb of Memphis. So as predicted looks like TB is starting a church in his same town although technically he can say it is even in a different state.
Get his autograph while there....

[Fiyahstarter]

Pyro, I agree. Some people say just give it to God and don't worry about how it is used. I agree mostly with that premise in that I don't think the tithe payer should micro manage what is done with their tithe money.

However like you said I believe we have a responsibility to tithe to those who are actually using the tithe for God's work and if one knowingly tithes to someone they know is not using the tithe to support God's work then they are not pleasing God and will have to answer to him for it.

I don't consider it "micro-management" to ensure that God is getting the money.

I suspect everyone in swindled churches "thought" their tithes were being put to good use.

A simple statement such as:

Incoming: $30,000 per month

Outgoing: Staff Salaries = $8,000; Mortgage = $10,000; Electric = $1,000; Supplies $500; Donations = $5,000 (homeless shelter; missionary); Food Pantry ($1,000) . . . etc etc

You get the picture.

I just don't understand why the above is considered a BAD thing? Seems like to me it would be a GOOD thing (for those with clean noses, that is) and might actually inspire some to give more!

JMHO

[Hizzangel]

Simply not true about TV starting a church in Olivebranch; I can assure you of that

[not4saken]

I don't consider it "micro-management" to ensure that God is getting the money.

I suspect everyone in swindled churches "thought" their tithes were being put to good use.

A simple statement such as:

Incoming: $30,000 per month

Outgoing: Staff Salaries = $8,000; Mortgage = $10,000; Electric = $1,000; Supplies $500; Donations = $5,000 (homeless shelter; missionary); Food Pantry ($1,000) . . . etc etc

You get the picture.

I just don't understand why the above is considered a BAD thing? Seems like to me it would be a GOOD thing (for those with clean noses, that is) and might actually inspire some to give more!

JMHO

:eek:There's nuthin wrong with a Business Statement at the end of the year, for the Church Members. However, tithing to me is a matter of principle. I do it because I get blessed in return. Once that money leaves my hand- it makes no difference what the leadership does with it- that's between them and God. I did my part. It's always right to do what's right- no matter what others are doing.

[Monterrey]

So TB is selling used cars now!

[CC1]

Simply not true about TV starting a church in Olivebranch; I can assure you of that

Who is TV?

[Hizzangel]

Funny.....TB :)

[Godzchild]

This is why this thread can't die.

:shifty sort of figured as time went on....the deeper this thread would get

[Godzchild]

Just really cant get the picture to come clear.... JR would be Asst. Pastor of the new church founded/started...or however it came to be by DE? JR was never on the ministeral staff.........besides a wife who was rarely in a service? Did'nt know people who only ran the audio/video seldomly...qualified to be a pastor/preacher of any type....not in the UPC that is!

[Godzchild]

This is why this thread can't die.

DE a former minister at TPC is starting a new church. DE background is that he is the son of a Baptist Minister from Jackson TN that received the HG at a bring your own friend service at TPC about 7 years ago. He was a right hand man (favorite) for TB (administrative, organizer), and you would see him on the platform, took trips to NYC, and other preaching points that TB had. Most every Sunday that TB was in town he would go with the entourage and place little placard where everyone was to sit, before TB and their family arrived. It has since been shown that all these meals were paid for by the church. He also co-chaired the Ministerial Association and enforced and enacted various projects that TB had. He also claimed to be a son in the Gospel, a Timothy if you would of TB. He frequently used the word "Apostle" for TB, and encouraged others to do so. His motive for leaving is that he was upset that the church board refused to honor a $250,000+ severance pay for TB and his SIL's that he helped negotiate (in a motel room meeting with CJ) at the time of TB resignation. He felt that even if they decided not to pay TB, that they should at least pay the SIL's.

He asked the UPC if they would allow him to open a church in Memphis, and he was told not right now. It is a bad time, and rumor has it, that he met with TB and was informed that TB planned to open a church in Olive Branch, MS and if he would wait a couple months, then TB would turn it over to him after it got off the ground. He decided not to wait or be involved in that church, and rented a building on Mendenhall in the Hickory Hill area of Memphis. He has taken several member that weren't going anywhere and faithful in attendance.

When told that all the ministers were being set down and being placed on equal level after TB left, he stated "I am called to minister, and if I'm not going to have a future here, then my family and I will have to do something else". He sat for two weeks in the congregation and then left to attend "Lighthouse UPC" in Jackson, TN with the rest of TB SIL's and wife.

He will now be able to minister, without having to sit down with the other ministers at TPC.

I did see pics on fb of the in-out and off and on "saints" ....just cant get a grip on the asst. pastor?????? whose wife was about as faithful as a snowstorm in mid Agust in Memphis:scorebadreally

[Fiyahstarter]

:eek:There's nuthin wrong with a Business Statement at the end of the year, for the Church Members. However, tithing to me is a matter of principle. I do it because I get blessed in return. Once that money leaves my hand- it makes no difference what the leadership does with it- that's between them and God. I did my part. It's always right to do what's right- no matter what others are doing.

I find your highlighted statement mind boggling...but it must be what many others believe too else'n there wouldn't be so much corruption.

I, too, am firm in principle and believe in doing what is "right." Apparently, our definitions of "right" are different.

I'd rather use my 10%+ to hand deliver groceries to families in need; randomly pay someone's monthly mortgage payment who is down on his luck; send a check to a missionary; make someone's Christmas special; buy a less fortunate student at school a bag of new clothes; donate to St. Jude's; and the list goes on... Yes, I'd much rather do these things than give church staff six-digit salaries and fund extravagant vehicles, homes, trips, and even gifts for adulterous affairs.

Of course not all ministry is like this... but enough have surfaced lately that obviously accountability needs to be tightened. Church has become a big business. :depressed

[not4saken]

I find your highlighted statement mind boggling...but it must be what many others believe too else'n there wouldn't be so much corruption.

I, too, am firm in principle and believe in doing what is "right." Apparently, our definitions of "right" are different.

I'd rather use my 10%+ to hand deliver groceries to families in need; randomly pay someone's monthly mortgage payment who is down on his luck; send a check to a missionary; make someone's Christmas special; buy a less fortunate student at school a bag of new clothes; donate to St. Jude's; and the list goes on... Yes, I'd much rather do these things than give church staff six-digit salaries and fund extravagant vehicles, homes, trips, and even gifts for adulterous affairs.

Of course not all ministry is like this... but enough have surfaced lately that obviously accountability needs to be tightened. Church has become a big business. :depressed

I realize that it may seem like I wear blinders...I was raised in an old fashioned preacher's home, and giving was stressed :) and...giving to GOD was touted daily- and PRACTICED. And, I DO give to those in need
above and beyond tithing...that's just my reasonable service, right? :) I feel that when I give tithes out of a pure heart, to The Kingdom, God honors my sacrifice. It doesn't matter to ME what the Pastor does with the money. Honestly. I gave it to God. If Pastors want to be guilty of stealing from God- he will answer for his sin. as for 300,000.00 incomes and expensive cars? If I had the money- I certainly would have a nice home and a new car, you best believe THAT!! LOL *shrugs* Just my thots...

[mizpeh]

I realize that it may seem like I wear blinders...I was raised in an old fashioned preacher's home, and giving was stressed :) and...giving to GOD was touted daily- and PRACTICED. And, I DO give to those in need
above and beyond tithing...that's just my reasonable service, right? :) I feel that when I give tithes out of a pure heart, to The Kingdom, God honors my sacrifice. It doesn't matter to ME what the Pastor does with the money. Honestly. I gave it to God. If Pastors want to be guilty of stealing from God- he will answer for his sin. as for 300,000.00 incomes and expensive cars? If I had the money- I certainly would have a nice home and a new car, you best believe THAT!! LOL *shrugs* Just my thots...

Would you keep giving if you found out that the Pastor was taking money meant for a building fund and using it as a personal fund?

[not4saken]

Would you keep giving if you found out that the Pastor was taking money meant for a building fund and using it as a personal fund?

Yes. Have done that very thing...God took care of that Pastor, AND He took good care of me for my obedience to His word. God blesses on principle. Period. What did I have to lose? Nothing. What did the Pastor lose? Everything. His good name, his reputation, and now..his mind- to altzheimers. Sad, really.

[Monterrey]

Yes. Have done that very thing...God took care of that Pastor, AND He took good care of me for my obedience to His word. God blesses on principle. Period. What did I have to lose? Nothing. What did the Pastor lose? Everything. His good name, his reputation, and now..his mind- to altzheimers. Sad, really.

Excellent post!:nod

[Cindy]

Yes. Have done that very thing...God took care of that Pastor, AND He took good care of me for my obedience to His word. God blesses on principle. Period. What did I have to lose? Nothing. What did the Pastor lose? Everything. His good name, his reputation, and now..his mind- to altzheimers. Sad, really.

Reaping and sowing. :nod

[Steve Epley]

Yes. Have done that very thing...God took care of that Pastor, AND He took good care of me for my obedience to His word. God blesses on principle. Period. What did I have to lose? Nothing. What did the Pastor lose? Everything. His good name, his reputation, and now..his mind- to altzheimers. Sad, really.

This is true God eventually will execute HIs own judgment.

[Sister Alvear]

lifestyles in time catch up....

[not4saken]

lifestyles in time catch up....

Unconfessed, hidden sin will bring its own reward...

[Cindy]

Unconfessed, hidden sin will bring its own reward...

It sure does. :nod
And now there are CAMERAS EVERYWHERE.

[seekerman]

Over 163,000 views for this thread. Is that a record?

[Cindy]

Over 163,000 views for this thread. Is that a record?

I am not sure, we did have the stepper thread a few years ago. It was pretty big.

[Godzchild]

It sure does. :nod
And now there are CAMERAS EVERYWHERE.

Makes me sort of scared to even try on clothes for fear of them in the fitting rooms. As for public restrooms, I dont use them but one would have to wonder about cameras being in there as well.

[Old Paths]

Yes. Have done that very thing...God took care of that Pastor, AND He took good care of me for my obedience to His word. God blesses on principle. Period. What did I have to lose? Nothing. What did the Pastor lose? Everything. His good name, his reputation, and now..his mind- to altzheimers. Sad, really.

Amen!

[RandyWayne]

Yes. Have done that very thing...God took care of that Pastor, AND He took good care of me for my obedience to His word. God blesses on principle. Period. What did I have to lose? Nothing. What did the Pastor lose? Everything. His good name, his reputation, and now..his mind- to altzheimers. Sad, really.

Sorry, I will not give any money to anyone that I happen to KNOW is abusing it. There is no "blessing" in that. It is irresponsible.

[Timmy]

It took only 41 days. At this rate, in about a year it'll hit a million. ;)

Well, in the 58 days since it hit 100,000 views, there have been only 63,175 more views. It's losing steam. :(

[Godzchild]

I find your highlighted statement mind boggling...but it must be what many others believe too else'n there wouldn't be so much corruption.

I, too, am firm in principle and believe in doing what is "right." Apparently, our definitions of "right" are different.

I'd rather use my 10%+ to hand deliver groceries to families in need; randomly pay someone's monthly mortgage payment who is down on his luck; send a check to a missionary; make someone's Christmas special; buy a less fortunate student at school a bag of new clothes; donate to St. Jude's; and the list goes on... Yes, I'd much rather do these things than give church staff six-digit salaries and fund extravagant vehicles, homes, trips, and even gifts for adulterous affairs.

Of course not all ministry is like this... but enough have surfaced lately that obviously accountability needs to be tightened. Church has become a big business. :depressed

I am sure this will get some backlash but I do agree with this! NOT all churches are like TPC and I have been in the best of the best UPC churches where you can see where the money is going....and you see PROGRESS...not Escalades and 800,000.00 homes for the pastors and his family living high as well. I do however know God said to Tithe and give Offerrings and do it with a cheerful heart. I do beleive that when I do what God commands us to do, once the money leaves my hand, I have done what God said to do and I am no longer "responsible" for where the money goes.

Malachi 3:8
Will man rob God? Yet you are robbing me. But you say, ‘How have we robbed you?’ In your tithes and contributions.

[Sister Alvear]

You don't have to be around people long until you discover where their heart is....and some people's heart is often wrapped around strange things...My daughter in law and I were in a place where all they talked about was cats...cats...and more cats...I counted 13 in the house! Got to church and there were 6 people....Such a small thing yet people get off tract both in small things and in big things....the principle is the same...the heart....

[Timmy]

You don't have to be around people long until you discover where their heart is....and some people's heart is often wrapped around strange things...My daughter in law and I were in a place where all they talked about was cats...cats...and more cats...I counted 13 in the house! Got to church and there were 6 people....Such a small thing yet people get off tract both in small things and in big things....the principle is the same...the heart....

Around here, it's hockey, hockey, hockey. :lol

[seekerman]

You don't have to be around people long until you discover where their heart is....and some people's heart is often wrapped around strange things...My daughter in law and I were in a place where all they talked about was cats...cats...and more cats...I counted 13 in the house! Got to church and there were 6 people....Such a small thing yet people get off tract both in small things and in big things....the principle is the same...the heart....

Maybe they had a cat ministry.

[Timmy]

Maybe they had a cat ministry.

Good luck with that. Everyone knows, cat's can't get saved. :lol

[navygoat1998]

Good luck with that. Everyone knows, cat's can't get saved. :lol

Only Oneness cats will be saved :kittyhug

[AreYouReady?]

Only Oneness cats will be saved :kittyhug

You better run when they start speaking in tongues. :D

[Cindy]

Cats? I thought she said hats. :bubble

[Godzchild]

Cats? I thought she said hats. :bubble

:killinme

[Peacemaker]

speaking in tongues is one thing. But who is the minister willing to BAPTIZE a cat?

[navygoat1998]

speaking in tongues is one thing. But who is the minister willing to BAPTIZE a cat?

If a Oneness pastor won't, I am sure we could get an Assembly of God pastor to do it. Matter of fact I have some friends who are former UPC pastors who are now AG and I bet the would Baptize that cat in the Name and the title so as to make sure that cat made the final cut. :party

[Cindy]

Good grief.

[navygoat1998]

Good grief.

I will see your good grief and raise you one..........Good grief:cool:!

[AreYouReady?]

If a Oneness pastor won't, I am sure we could get an Assembly of God pastor to do it. Matter of fact I have some friends who are former UPC pastors who are now AG and I bet the would Baptize that cat in the Name and the title so as to make sure that cat made the final cut. :party

Well...whoever baptizes a cat better have antibiotic ointment, sterile gauze and bandages handy...he's gonna need em. :lol

[navygoat1998]

Well...whoever baptizes a cat better have antibiotic ointment, sterile gauze and bandages handy...he's gonna need em. :lol

balm of gilead :secretservice

[Fiyahstarter]

Good luck with that. Everyone knows, cat's can't get saved. :lol

This may be true... but everyone knows ALL DOGS GO TO HEAVEN!:dogpat

[not4saken]

Have I been kidnapped by aliens?!!

:groan

[Esther]

If a Oneness pastor won't, I am sure we could get an Assembly of God pastor to do it. Matter of fact I have some friends who are former UPC pastors who are now AG and I bet the would Baptize that cat in the Name and the title so as to make sure that cat made the final cut. :party

True story. I knew a lady way back in time, who baptized her chickens and got up and testified about it. I think she said she drowned one of them.

church nearly split a seam trying not to laugh.:D

[AreYouReady?]

Have I been kidnapped by aliens?!!

:groan

Do the aliens have feline features? :)

[AreYouReady?]

True story. I knew a lady way back in time, who baptized her chickens and got up and testified about it. I think she said she drowned one of them.

church nearly split a seam trying not to laugh.:D

Now that there is funny!

That drowned chicken must have not laid enough eggs or something. :ursofunny

[Jvc2191]

DE a former minister at TPC is starting a new church. DE background is that he is the son of a Baptist Minister from Jackson TN that received the HG at a bring your own friend service at TPC about 7 years ago. He was a right hand man (favorite) for TB (administrative, organizer), and you would see him on the platform, took trips to NYC, and other preaching points that TB had. Most every Sunday that TB was in town he would go with the entourage and place little placard where everyone was to sit, before TB and their family arrived. It has since been shown that all these meals were paid for by the church. He also co-chaired the Ministerial Association and enforced and enacted various projects that TB had. He also claimed to be a son in the Gospel, a Timothy if you would of TB. He frequently used the word "Apostle" for TB, and encouraged others to do so. His motive for leaving is that he was upset that the church board refused to honor a $250,000+ severance pay for TB and his SIL's that he helped negotiate (in a motel room meeting with CJ) at the time of TB resignation. He felt that even if they decided not to pay TB, that they should at least pay the SIL's.

He asked the UPC if they would allow him to open a church in Memphis, and he was told not right now. It is a bad time, and rumor has it, that he met with TB and was informed that TB planned to open a church in Olive Branch, MS and if he would wait a couple months, then TB would turn it over to him after it got off the ground. He decided not to wait or be involved in that church, and rented a building on Mendenhall in the Hickory Hill area of Memphis. He has taken several member that weren't going anywhere and one family that was attending regularly. It looks like there will be 20-30 members all who are the in-out types, that were never really faithful in attendance.

When told that all the ministers were being set down and being placed on equal level after TB left, he stated "I am called to minister, and if I'm not going to have a future here, then my family and I will have to do something else". He sat for two weeks in the congregation and then left to attend "Lighthouse UPC" in Jackson, TN with the rest of TB SIL's and wife.

He will now be able to minister, without having to sit down with the other ministers at TPC.



Very interesting information. Are you a TPC member? How do you know all of these facts?

[Old Paths]

Discernment?

:D

[Insider]

I signed up just to respond to this thread. I am a member of TPC with intimate knowledge of what happened. I am not a board member but I am close fiends with 2 of the 3 original members. I wanted to respond early in the thread but my emotions were all over the place. I am glad I waited. My initial feelings of anger, hurt and shock were overwhelming when I first learned of the evidence that was discovered on the church's servers. TB's initial claim that this evidence was gathered illegally was false. What initially happened was one of the church computers was in need of repair. The repair technician happened to be a church member.

This person came across pictures and correspondences in texts and e-mails from TB's Blackberry and e-mail accounts. This person initially was hesitant to come forward. His accountability partner happened to be his boss. After a few weeks this person felt compelled to tell his accountability partner what he found. He eventually did and they both approached the church board with what they had discovered. The board and their accusers then (as is required by scripture) approached TB. "1 Timothy 5:19-20 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses."

He did not deny it. He asked the board to destroy the evidence. I will not go into details of what occurred next. Suffice it to say he admitted guilt. And the evidence found on the church servers was compelling to say the least. He was caught and was smart enough to know there was no way out. The next church service, after the board meeting with TB, I looked to with pure dread. I expected TB to be repentant. He was not. Instead he went into the now famous 'jackal rant'. I cannot adequately describe the feelings I had after that service. Shock, hurt, anger, just do not suffice.

I expected my pastor to seek forgiveness, to be contrite. Instead he was indignant and actually tried to bully his way through the situation by intimidation of the board members and his accusers. The following days were just terrible and I had a hard time sleeping. I could only think of the betrayal I felt. In the coming days and weeks, through many phone calls to people that were intimately involved (board members), I came to hear of other things besides the pics, texts and e-mails. There were church finances that were mishandled. It was devastating. How could this man that had been my pastor for years, a person I dined with, cried with, counseled with, laughed with, have done the things he was being accused of?

I wanted to think it was not true, but I knew the board members too well. They are upstanding, salt of the earth, godly men that live what they believe in faith and in their actions. I knew their character. One of them, at one time, would have taken a bullet for TB. Loved TB dearly, supported his ministry, loved his family. This man I saw cry over what he actually saw with his own eyes on the church servers. I knew he was telling us the truth. I have read a lot of posts here, not all, but several. It is sad that non-Apostlics have taken this opportunity to trash the UPCI and the Apostolic Movement.

The fact is, all men sin, regardless of faith. Was what TB did wrong? You bet. Should he be held accountable? Absolutely. But to hold one denomination or faith hostage for the actions of one man is foolish and folly. I guess since Peter and David failed we should hold all of Christianity accountable and throw out the Old and New Testaments. It is a silly, pathetic, small-minded person that would do so. Do I believe the message of UPCI. Whole-heartedly. Are we perfect. No. Truth is truth no matter what the situation. Please don't try and bait me into a debate on standards or legalism or the theology of the UPCI.

I won't bite. I'll leave that for others. I will pray for you and with you but I will not debate scripture on a public forum. No one wins. You want to talk one-on-one. Be glad to. But debates on a public forum such a FB or here is not productive and serves no purpose except self aggrandizement. There are those that will chose to not forgive TB for what he did. I am not one of them. I am past the anger stage. My tithes, offering and other monies I gave to TPC were given from my heart to God and his ministry. What TB or others did with that money, he or they, will be accountable to God for.

I did my scriptural duty. I will never forget what TB did and I will never be a part of a church that is family run by one man making all the decisions nor will I be part of a church that openly practices nepotism. Churches should be board driven by Godly men of character in concert with the bishop. We had a board, but it failed us. If you talked with the board members they will tell you they failed our church. But they trusted their pastor explicitly. As Ronald Reagan used to say, "Trust and Verify". This situation is truly pathetic in every way. But if we are to be forgiven we must forgive.

I have forgiven TB. I pray he has or will repent. I cannot say whether or not he has. From all indications it appears he has not and that is truly regrettable. I will not go into or be part of the rumor mill. Usually after these situations all types of non truths and innuendo are spewed by people just being hateful and vindictive. Christians should be forgiving and love the sinner but not the sin. There are souls at stake, and too many have suffered because of this. In the meeting before service, in TB's office, the Sunday of the 'jackal rant' TB made this statement. "Remember, Be Gentle with the Body". Never more truthful or ironic words have been spoken.

[Godzchild]

I signed up just to respond to this thread. I am a member of TPC with intimate knowledge of what happened. I am not a board member but I am close fiends with 2 of the 3 original members. I wanted to respond early in the thread but my emotions were all over the place. I am glad I waited. My initial feelings of anger, hurt and shock were overwhelming when I first learned of the evidence that was discovered on the church's servers. TB's initial claim that this evidence was gathered illegally was false. What initially happened was one of the church computers was in need of repair. The repair technician happened to be a church member.

This person came across pictures and correspondences in texts and e-mails from TB's Blackberry and e-mail accounts. This person initially was hesitant to come forward. His accountability partner happened to be his boss. After a few weeks this person felt compelled to tell his accountability partner what he found. He eventually did and they both approached the church board with what they had discovered. The board and their accusers then (as is required by scripture) approached TB. "1 Timothy 5:19-20 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses."

He did not deny it. He asked the board to destroy the evidence. I will not go into details of what occurred next. Suffice it to say he admitted guilt. And the evidence found on the church servers was compelling to say the least. He was caught and was smart enough to know there was no way out. The next church service, after the board meeting with TB, I looked to with pure dread. I expected TB to be repentant. He was not. Instead he went into the now famous 'jackal rant'. I cannot adequately describe the feelings I had after that service. Shock, hurt, anger, just do not suffice.

I expected my pastor to seek forgiveness, to be contrite. Instead he was indignant and actually tried to bully his way through the situation by intimidation of the board members and his accusers. The following days were just terrible and I had a hard time sleeping. I could only think of the betrayal I felt. In the coming days and weeks, through many phone calls to people that were intimately involved (board members), I came to hear of other things besides the pics, texts and e-mails. There were church finances that were mishandled. It was devastating. How could this man that had been my pastor for years, a person I dined with, cried with, counseled with, laughed with, have done the things he was being accused of?

I wanted to think it was not true, but I knew the board members too well. They are upstanding, salt of the earth, godly men that live what they believe in faith and in their actions. I knew their character. One of them, at one time, would have taken a bullet for TB. Loved TB dearly, supported his ministry, loved his family. This man I saw cry over what he actually saw with his own eyes on the church servers. I knew he was telling us the truth. I have read a lot of posts here, not all, but several. It is sad that non-Apostlics have taken this opportunity to trash the UPCI and the Apostolic Movement.

The fact is, all men sin, regardless of faith. Was what TB did wrong? You bet. Should he be held accountable? Absolutely. But to hold one denomination or faith hostage for the actions of one man is foolish and folly. I guess since Peter and David failed we should hold all of Christianity accountable and throw out the Old and New Testaments. It is a silly, pathetic, small-minded person that would do so. Do I believe the message of UPCI. Whole-heartedly. Are we perfect. No. Truth is truth no matter what the situation. Please don't try and bait me into a debate on standards or legalism or the theology of the UPCI.

I won't bite. I'll leave that for others. I will pray for you and with you but I will not debate scripture on a public forum. No one wins. You want to talk one-on-one. Be glad to. But debates on a public forum such a FB or here is not productive and serves no purpose except self aggrandizement. There are those that will chose to not forgive TB for what he did. I am not one of them. I am past the anger stage. My tithes, offering and other monies I gave to TPC were given from my heart to God and his ministry. What TB or others did with that money, he or they, will be accountable to God for.

I did my scriptural duty. I will never forget what TB did and I will never be a part of a church that is family run by one man making all the decisions nor will I be part of a church that openly practices nepotism. Churches should be board driven by Godly men of character in concert with the bishop. We had a board, but it failed us. If you talked with the board members they will tell you they failed our church. But they trusted their pastor explicitly. As Ronald Reagan used to say, "Trust and Verify". This situation is truly pathetic in every way. But if we are to be forgiven we must forgive.

I have forgiven TB. I pray he has or will repent. I cannot say whether or not he has. From all indications it appears he has not and that is truly regrettable. I will not go into or be part of the rumor mill. Usually after these situations all types of non truths and innuendo are spewed by people just being hateful and vindictive. Christians should be forgiving and love the sinner but not the sin. There are souls at stake, and too many have suffered because of this. In the meeting before service, in TB's office, the Sunday of the 'jackal rant' TB made this statement. "Remember, Be Gentle with the Body". Never more truthful or ironic words have been spoken.

WOW.....I am blown away!!!!:nuke I am so glad my family was not there when all this mess blew up. But on a personal level, alot of people seen this starting to unfold years ago. TB was too good to be true and and a BIG let down as a pastor. He KNEW of some things going on in the church and about some people being hateful to one family, and when approached....he never once tried to do anything about it. He allowed this behavior to go on until the family was literally run off. That is pathetic and sad!!!!!!!!!!!!! :foottapHe was not the pastor he wanted people/his saints to think he was! Some may say, you go to church to worship God...TRUE , BUT, if some of the s"AINTS" are making your life miserable and they are being hateful for no reason other than their own ignorance, then you go to the pastor for his assistance.....and he all but turns his head?????? , then God understands why you need to go elsewhere!! Shame on you Terry Black for being everything BUT a TRUTHFUL loving pastor and a devoted leader of "your" flock! Be sure your sins will find you out!:irate p.s. you are right....many people want to hold the denomination/faith accountable...when it could and does happen in MANY different denominations! Apostolics are not perfect...even tho many of ones think they are:shockamoo...truely dillusional!!!!

[mizpeh]

I signed up just to respond to this thread. I am a member of TPC with intimate knowledge of what happened. I am not a board member but I am close fiends with 2 of the 3 original members. I wanted to respond early in the thread but my emotions were all over the place. I am glad I waited. My initial feelings of anger, hurt and shock were overwhelming when I first learned of the evidence that was discovered on the church's servers. TB's initial claim that this evidence was gathered illegally was false. What initially happened was one of the church computers was in need of repair. The repair technician happened to be a church member.

This person came across pictures and correspondences in texts and e-mails from TB's Blackberry and e-mail accounts. This person initially was hesitant to come forward. His accountability partner happened to be his boss. After a few weeks this person felt compelled to tell his accountability partner what he found. He eventually did and they both approached the church board with what they had discovered. The board and their accusers then (as is required by scripture) approached TB. "1 Timothy 5:19-20 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses."

He did not deny it. He asked the board to destroy the evidence. I will not go into details of what occurred next. Suffice it to say he admitted guilt. And the evidence found on the church servers was compelling to say the least. He was caught and was smart enough to know there was no way out. The next church service, after the board meeting with TB, I looked to with pure dread. I expected TB to be repentant. He was not. Instead he went into the now famous 'jackal rant'. I cannot adequately describe the feelings I had after that service. Shock, hurt, anger, just do not suffice.

I expected my pastor to seek forgiveness, to be contrite. Instead he was indignant and actually tried to bully his way through the situation by intimidation of the board members and his accusers. The following days were just terrible and I had a hard time sleeping. I could only think of the betrayal I felt. In the coming days and weeks, through many phone calls to people that were intimately involved (board members), I came to hear of other things besides the pics, texts and e-mails. There were church finances that were mishandled. It was devastating. How could this man that had been my pastor for years, a person I dined with, cried with, counseled with, laughed with, have done the things he was being accused of?

I wanted to think it was not true, but I knew the board members too well. They are upstanding, salt of the earth, godly men that live what they believe in faith and in their actions. I knew their character. One of them, at one time, would have taken a bullet for TB. Loved TB dearly, supported his ministry, loved his family. This man I saw cry over what he actually saw with his own eyes on the church servers. I knew he was telling us the truth. I have read a lot of posts here, not all, but several. It is sad that non-Apostlics have taken this opportunity to trash the UPCI and the Apostolic Movement.

The fact is, all men sin, regardless of faith. Was what TB did wrong? You bet. Should he be held accountable? Absolutely. But to hold one denomination or faith hostage for the actions of one man is foolish and folly. I guess since Peter and David failed we should hold all of Christianity accountable and throw out the Old and New Testaments. It is a silly, pathetic, small-minded person that would do so. Do I believe the message of UPCI. Whole-heartedly. Are we perfect. No. Truth is truth no matter what the situation. Please don't try and bait me into a debate on standards or legalism or the theology of the UPCI.

I won't bite. I'll leave that for others. I will pray for you and with you but I will not debate scripture on a public forum. No one wins. You want to talk one-on-one. Be glad to. But debates on a public forum such a FB or here is not productive and serves no purpose except self aggrandizement. There are those that will chose to not forgive TB for what he did. I am not one of them. I am past the anger stage. My tithes, offering and other monies I gave to TPC were given from my heart to God and his ministry. What TB or others did with that money, he or they, will be accountable to God for.

I did my scriptural duty. I will never forget what TB did and I will never be a part of a church that is family run by one man making all the decisions nor will I be part of a church that openly practices nepotism. Churches should be board driven by Godly men of character in concert with the bishop. We had a board, but it failed us. If you talked with the board members they will tell you they failed our church. But they trusted their pastor explicitly. As Ronald Reagan used to say, "Trust and Verify". This situation is truly pathetic in every way. But if we are to be forgiven we must forgive.

I have forgiven TB. I pray he has or will repent. I cannot say whether or not he has. From all indications it appears he has not and that is truly regrettable. I will not go into or be part of the rumor mill. Usually after these situations all types of non truths and innuendo are spewed by people just being hateful and vindictive. Christians should be forgiving and love the sinner but not the sin. There are souls at stake, and too many have suffered because of this. In the meeting before service, in TB's office, the Sunday of the 'jackal rant' TB made this statement. "Remember, Be Gentle with the Body". Never more truthful or ironic words have been spoken.

I hope and pray that all of the church body at TPC has your attitude. God is able to bring good from this evil. God bless you all.

[Insider]

I hope and pray that all of the church body at TPC has your attitude. God is able to bring good from this evil. God bless you all.

Thank you, there is still a lot of collateral damage but it is my prayer that people come to terms with it and move on.

Also there was a question about the 'Jackal Rant' mentioned in my previous post. That was in reference to what TB did the following Sunday after news of the allegations were revealed. He got up in front of the TPC congregation and in an attempt to bully the board members and his accusers, he called them 'Jackals'. The context was that Jackals seek out the wounded, surround them and then attack them. He actually said, and I quote. "We shoot Jackals".

That quote went out over the internet and was later removed. It left us speechless that he would react in this way. We all knew what he was attempting to do. But his attempt at intimidation backfired. The rest is history as they say.

[revdtzombik]

Thank you, there is still a lot of collateral damage but it is my prayer that people come to terms with it and move on.

Also there was a question about the 'Jackal Rant' mentioned in my previous post. That was in reference to what TB did the following Sunday after news of the allegations were revealed. He got up in front of the TPC congregation and in an attempt to bully the board members and his accusers, he called them 'Jackals'. The context was that Jackals seek out the wounded, surround them and then attack them. He actually said, and I quote. "We shoot Jackals".

That quote went out over the internet and was later removed. It left us speechless that he would react in this way. We all knew what he was attempting to do. But his attempt at intimidation backfired. The rest is history as they say.

You will be part of the healing process for TPC...it is difficult to take a spiritual hit such as this situation, but, with the a close relationship with God himself, and a heart to learn and teach, along with a group of honest leaders seeking truly what is best for the Church , you all will come out stronger, wiser, and have more compassion for having been through this valley of deception...To God be all glory and honor for what the future holds...
blessings your way
The Rev

[tv1a]

If everyone at TPC had the "good attitude" described in an earlier post, you would have hundreds of "insiders" with scoops and the truth clamoring to share with the world their interpretation of the facts.

[forced2view]

One of the hardest times of my life was going thru a similar situation as this thread describes. The hardest thing for me to overcome was not the forgiveness part, for I know things that I have done that the Lord has forgiven me for, one sin is no worse than another, it all keeps us out of heaven, but I had a very hard time helping my family thru it. They were young, and were very fragile. I owe my thanks to Jesus for helping us through it, but I felt like I was on very thin ice for a very long time. This is not something that will be a quick healing......for some maybe, but there are so many different aspects of healing that will need to take place. God is able to do it all but you can bet that the enemy is licking his chops to get the leftovers that TB left.

[CC1]

I signed up just to respond to this thread. I am a member of TPC with intimate knowledge of what happened. I am not a board member but I am close fiends with 2 of the 3 original members. I wanted to respond early in the thread but my emotions were all over the place. I am glad I waited. My initial feelings of anger, hurt and shock were overwhelming when I first learned of the evidence that was discovered on the church's servers. TB's initial claim that this evidence was gathered illegally was false. What initially happened was one of the church computers was in need of repair. The repair technician happened to be a church member.

This person came across pictures and correspondences in texts and e-mails from TB's Blackberry and e-mail accounts. This person initially was hesitant to come forward. His accountability partner happened to be his boss. After a few weeks this person felt compelled to tell his accountability partner what he found. He eventually did and they both approached the church board with what they had discovered. The board and their accusers then (as is required by scripture) approached TB. "1 Timothy 5:19-20 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses."

He did not deny it. He asked the board to destroy the evidence. I will not go into details of what occurred next. Suffice it to say he admitted guilt. And the evidence found on the church servers was compelling to say the least. He was caught and was smart enough to know there was no way out. The next church service, after the board meeting with TB, I looked to with pure dread. I expected TB to be repentant. He was not. Instead he went into the now famous 'jackal rant'. I cannot adequately describe the feelings I had after that service. Shock, hurt, anger, just do not suffice.

I expected my pastor to seek forgiveness, to be contrite. Instead he was indignant and actually tried to bully his way through the situation by intimidation of the board members and his accusers. The following days were just terrible and I had a hard time sleeping. I could only think of the betrayal I felt. In the coming days and weeks, through many phone calls to people that were intimately involved (board members), I came to hear of other things besides the pics, texts and e-mails. There were church finances that were mishandled. It was devastating. How could this man that had been my pastor for years, a person I dined with, cried with, counseled with, laughed with, have done the things he was being accused of?

I wanted to think it was not true, but I knew the board members too well. They are upstanding, salt of the earth, godly men that live what they believe in faith and in their actions. I knew their character. One of them, at one time, would have taken a bullet for TB. Loved TB dearly, supported his ministry, loved his family. This man I saw cry over what he actually saw with his own eyes on the church servers. I knew he was telling us the truth. I have read a lot of posts here, not all, but several. It is sad that non-Apostlics have taken this opportunity to trash the UPCI and the Apostolic Movement.

The fact is, all men sin, regardless of faith. Was what TB did wrong? You bet. Should he be held accountable? Absolutely. But to hold one denomination or faith hostage for the actions of one man is foolish and folly. I guess since Peter and David failed we should hold all of Christianity accountable and throw out the Old and New Testaments. It is a silly, pathetic, small-minded person that would do so. Do I believe the message of UPCI. Whole-heartedly. Are we perfect. No. Truth is truth no matter what the situation. Please don't try and bait me into a debate on standards or legalism or the theology of the UPCI.

I won't bite. I'll leave that for others. I will pray for you and with you but I will not debate scripture on a public forum. No one wins. You want to talk one-on-one. Be glad to. But debates on a public forum such a FB or here is not productive and serves no purpose except self aggrandizement. There are those that will chose to not forgive TB for what he did. I am not one of them. I am past the anger stage. My tithes, offering and other monies I gave to TPC were given from my heart to God and his ministry. What TB or others did with that money, he or they, will be accountable to God for.

I did my scriptural duty. I will never forget what TB did and I will never be a part of a church that is family run by one man making all the decisions nor will I be part of a church that openly practices nepotism. Churches should be board driven by Godly men of character in concert with the bishop. We had a board, but it failed us. If you talked with the board members they will tell you they failed our church. But they trusted their pastor explicitly. As Ronald Reagan used to say, "Trust and Verify". This situation is truly pathetic in every way. But if we are to be forgiven we must forgive.

I have forgiven TB. I pray he has or will repent. I cannot say whether or not he has. From all indications it appears he has not and that is truly regrettable. I will not go into or be part of the rumor mill. Usually after these situations all types of non truths and innuendo are spewed by people just being hateful and vindictive. Christians should be forgiving and love the sinner but not the sin. There are souls at stake, and too many have suffered because of this. In the meeting before service, in TB's office, the Sunday of the 'jackal rant' TB made this statement. "Remember, Be Gentle with the Body". Never more truthful or ironic words have been spoken.

Great post. Thank you for sharing your heart. I think the vast majority of readers and posters on this thread do not "hold one denomination or faith hostage for the actions of one man". There has been criticism of church systems that elevate the pastor to a position with no accountibilty but that is not limited to UPC churches. The point is that pators needs to protect themselves and their churches by having accountibility measures in place.

You stated in your post that you would never again be part of a church without accountibility or one that practiced nepotism. That is exactly what most are talking about on here. Hopefully this thread and posts like yours will make pastors and saints reading take steps to make sure their situation is a correct one and they protected from something like this.

[Godzchild]

Great post. Thank you for sharing your heart. I think the vast majority of readers and posters on this thread do not "hold one denomination or faith hostage for the actions of one man". There has been criticism of church systems that elevate the pastor to a position with no accountibilty but that is not limited to UPC churches. The point is that pators needs to protect themselves and their churches by having accountibility measures in place.

You stated in your post that you would never again be part of a church without accountibility or one that practiced nepotism. That is exactly what most are talking about on here. Hopefully this thread and posts like yours will make pastors and saints reading take steps to make sure their situation is a correct one and they protected from something like this.

:cheer

[Insider]

One of the hardest times of my life was going thru a similar situation as this thread describes. The hardest thing for me to overcome was not the forgiveness part, for I know things that I have done that the Lord has forgiven me for, one sin is no worse than another, it all keeps us out of heaven, but I had a very hard time helping my family thru it. They were young, and were very fragile. I owe my thanks to Jesus for helping us through it, but I felt like I was on very thin ice for a very long time. This is not something that will be a quick healing......for some maybe, but there are so many different aspects of healing that will need to take place. God is able to do it all but you can bet that the enemy is licking his chops to get the leftovers that TB left.

My heart bleeds for you and your family. The enemy will do his bidding. As I have gotten older and more experienced I have come to believe that it will truly be a miracle if any of us make it. We are all so fallible. The world around us is falling to pieces. Just look at America and the situation she finds herself in at this time. Corruption at all levels of our government. I actually heard today of a father that was selling his 17 year old daughter in prostitution to support his drug habit.

And that is just one example of the pure evil this world faces. We all must rise to the challenges that will soon befall us. The Bible tells us that in the last days will be perilous times. The enemy is truly licking his chops. Whether you are a Pastor or pauper the enemy cares not. But when he brings a Pastor down there is always collateral damage. Truly heartbreaking.