Does Hell make sense?

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by Adam

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdpcGPPoawo

How dare we question God!

It's not God that we question, it's Man.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by seekerman

Honestly, do you think it's loving, kind or just for someone to torture another person because they didn't acknowledge them properly?

Second question....do you really believe God is so petty that He holds tremendous revengeful grudges, in His unforgiveness, toward those who do not ask Him to forgive them.

What kind of sick, twisted and petty God is this anyway?

First of all I would not characterize "Hell" as torture as in someone vindictively causing pain to someone else.

I would also not characterize "Hell" as a place people who did not properly acknowledge God. People that go to hell go because of their works

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.

The word for "torment" in Revelation can mean being tortured, but not always

Mar 6:48 And He saw them toiling in rowing, for the wind was contrary to them. And about the fourth watch of the night He came toward them walking on the sea, and would have passed by them.

Mat 14:24 But the boat was now in the midst of the sea, tossed with waves; for the wind was against them

The emphasis should be on punishment, not how we view torture. The word means to harass. To be in agony (not specified as physical). Judas was in agony after betraying Jesus.

Lot "tormented" his own soul by seeing what went on in Sodom

2Pe 2:8 (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard);

This is the description of what happens to the Devil. Jesus describes it as punishment

Mat 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Mat 25:42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
Mat 25:43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.'
Mat 25:44 Then they also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?'
Mat 25:45 Then he will answer them, saying, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.'
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

The bible does not elaborate on what this punishment is, other than the metaphor "fire". Real fire consumes and destroys till a person's body is turned to carbon element, just ashes. Nothing is left. It could be a metaphor for being totally destroyed and nothing left.

Or, as some have suggested, the "torment" is about being separated from God or maybe even the realization that they had their chance in their life to do good and they choose not too.

Second, the description of being "petty" is yours. The person here in question never mentioned being "petty", nor having a "tremendous revengeful grudge"...judges are not revengeful or hold grudges. They merely judge by law and give whatever punishment is appropriate

How come UR advocates never look at the God of the bible, who wiped out the entire world in a flood, and call Him petty?

Sodom? Petty God?

Ninevah? Petty God?

[Michael The Disciple]

This post may have been overlooked. Would like to get a comment on it.

Originally Posted by Praxeas
Im saying nobody is in hell right now. Those that go to hell are in the grave

When you said that you were agreeing with Paul.

Now lets see if the dead saints are in Hades/Sheol UNTIL the resurrection.

15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O HADES, where is thy victory? 1 Cor. 15:51-55

Now note very clearly Paul teaches us that UNTIL THE RESURRECTION death has not been defeated.

Until the resurrection HADES HAS THE VICTORY. Verse 55.

Remember what Jesus said?

16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of HADES shall not prevail against it. Matt. 16:18

The gates of Hades/Sheol are the gates of death. In other words the grave.

Some teach that the saints having died no longer go to Hades but rather go to Heaven. Yet Paul perceived different. His belief was that UNTIL THE RESURRECTION saints were still in Hades.

They were not in Heaven and death and Hades still had the victory. This is what Jesus meant. The gates of Hades will not prevail against them because he will unlock its gates at the second coming and resurrection of the dead!

On THAT DAY death and Hades are defeated.

1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. Rev. 1:18

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

It's not God that we question, it's Man.

I think it's OK to question some of the people who say they know what God says, and what He does, and what He wants us to do. The ones who are wrong, I mean. Surely nobody would complain about questioning those people.

[Praxeas]

I disagree. Death was defeated on the cross. It's because death was defeated on the cross that we, at the resurrection, will be resurrected

Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive forevermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

[james34]

what happens in the end to the angels who left their first estate?
What about Satan? All of these lost their place with no possibility of redemption.
Woe unto the inhabitors of the earth for the devil has come down to you, having a great wrath because he hath but a short time.
The angels like us have to choose to obey God....and if not then they will recieve a just reward.

[james34]

He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Good answer. But that has no bearing on how the bible says nothing about the lake of fire holding hope for its occupants. If this was true, the bible would be packed with info about it, not leaving us to assume what we think GOD WOULD do in our estimation.

How can you say this, when Jesus Himself said He spoke in parables least they should understand? He obviously has a purpose in many things being hidden from view. The Bible is not perfectly clear on a very many things.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by crakjak

Nothing in the verses you post supports endless conscience torment, only the confirmed wages of sin which is death.

It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God, yes, why? Because His fiery presence will vaporize all sin and evil, not because He will torture you endlessly. The truth about Hell makes sense, the traditional deception and lies of man, certainly do not.

bump for James

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by crakjak

How can you say this, when Jesus Himself said He spoke in parables least they should understand? He obviously has a purpose in many things being hidden from view. The Bible is not perfectly clear on a very many things.

Crakjak, think of it. If you are right about this teaching, THAT IS A VERY IMPORTANT detail, akin to the degree of importance that the very Gospel itself, for it to be hidden! Is the Gospel a hidden message that must be deciphered from parables without having been plainly set forth? Paul stated in 2 Cor 3 that the entire difference between the apostles' message and even Moses' was that Paul used great plainness of speech. Every one of the truths embedded int he Parables were elaborated upon plainly in the Epistles. Yes, Jesus used parables, but every truth laid therein was plainly taught in the epistles. Surely you heard that the epistles are like the commentaries on Jesus' teachings? But your view is absolutely never plainly related ANYWHERE in the entire bible! You admit it when you say at best it is HIDDEN FROM VIEW. As if God would hide from view such vital and important information!